Imperial Navy Question

I like the limitanei analogy
So the Sector Battle Fleet(s) are more equivalent to the mobile field army
A sector fleet is a waste of time, where is it deployed, how do you send it orders, how does it respond to events two subsectors away (months of comm lag). The admiral in command of the "sector fleet" may be able to command every other fleet they encounter, but they still don't know what the enemy is doing in real time.
No one command your fleet but the fleet admiral with the fleet, a higher ranking admiral could be several months away, and any orders they issue are based on a situation several months ago and won't be received for several months to come.

Sector admirals do not have god mode or author insight.

I think a lot of people do not fully appreciate the time lag with respect to fighting a war within a subsector, let alone across a sector.

It seems to me that the Sector Admiral is a mostly political appointment responsible for overall deployment and readiness of the various Fleets and Fleet elements within the Sector (Subsector and otherwise) at all times. The "Named Sector Fleet" is the name of the Regional Command (with Numbered Subsector Fleets and other Fleet elements assigned to it as needed, but I think it certainly could include specific oversight over and responsibility for additional core elements (Capital Squadrons and/or Task Units/Groups) that are scattered about the Sector in strategic locations that are used to form the cores of Task Forces and/or Battle Fleets during a major engagement. But it would be the responsibility of the Sector Admiral to appoint a Vice-Admiral from existing members of the Admiralty Staff to command such a formation locally and grant him broad powers to act as necessary as a mobile field commander in such times.
 
The sector duke is going to need someone to liaison with.

One reason you have hierarchies, so that you can communicate horizontally.

And, the Emperor does need conduits to control his military assets.
 
To what purpose once battle is joined?

So the sector duke is chatting away with the sector admiral. Meanwhile the Zhodani invade.

News of this invasion reaches them four to eight weeks after the event.

Where do they mobilise the sector fleet to?

They know where the Zhodani were, by the time their orders make their way to the sector fleet and the sector fleet ships jump to the battle front the Zhodani have had another four to eight weeks of moving into the Marches.

Here is a map

ABCD
EFGH
JKLM

You receive news (you are in H) that nine weeks ago four enemy fleets jumped into A, where do you order your fleet to?
Next week I will tell you where they jumped to during the second week of their invasion.
 
To what purpose once battle is joined?

So the sector duke is chatting away with the sector admiral. Meanwhile the Zhodani invade.

News of this invasion reaches them four to eight weeks after the event.

Where do they mobilise the sector fleet to?

They know where the Zhodani were, by the time their orders make their way to the sector fleet and the sector fleet ships jump to the battle front the Zhodani have had another four to eight weeks of moving into the Marches.

Here is a map

ABCD
EFGH
JKLM

You receive news (you are in H) that nine weeks ago four enemy fleets jumped into A, where do you order your fleet to?
Next week I will tell you where they jumped to during the second week of their invasion.

Presumably you will need good Forward Recon vessels or Scouts to be observing movements ahead of invasions in enemy or neutral territory so that you can send word back of movements of enemy Fleets or Task Groups in advance of the actual penetration of domestic borders so that you can form up and send your own forces en route to likely penetration points.

How were similar situations dealt with during the Age of Sail?
 
You sent the admirals with the fleets and they made the decision on the spot.

Doesn't matter how good your scouting reports of the build up are, you don't get news of the invasion for weeks, months, and by the time you commit your sector fleet the enemy has moved a considerable amount. The whole concept of a sector admiralty is ridiculous, the admirals are with the fleets, and they are not going to wait for orders that may take three months to reach them.
 
If you're on the defensive, you have to position your fleet to defend what's important to you.
When you have enough assets to attack you go for what's important to the enemy.
The minor worlds, essentially refuelling stops, will likely keep their heads down and accept changing hands whenever a fleet rolls through
 
There's a reason I divided sectors into quadrants for an intervening tier between sector and subsector.

However, this is the Imperium Navy, and their coordination requires sector control, since they're expecting reinforcements from neighbouring sector fleets, something that the sector admiral is going to have to request, as well as fulfilling such, at his discretion.

The sector admiral's function is to push counters around a map, essentially figuring out what are priorities, and what assets he wants to commit, something that an admiral in charge of fleet doesn't have the authority to do, and lacks the oversight to efficiently coordinate it.

I suppose at the turn of the century, it was decided to advance the Imperium Navy from the Great War, to a more modern organization.

What's the current doctrine, eleven battle squadrons and five battle rider squadrons per sector? And there are about sixteen subsectors per sector? Is the idea to build a fleet around each battle squadron?

Task force configuration.
 
Something else, I doubt that any kind of militia / reservist arrangement would exist in naval fleets at any level, even planetary navies.

People would have to get to port, take a shuttle up to their assigned ship in orbit, stow their gear, do admin activities like formation, meals, etc. They're going to need to sleep at some point. Then they'd train for 5 minutes before it would be time to put everything away, have final formation / accountability, then board the shuttle to get back to the downport by the time the event is scheduled to end. Then they get to travel home. And go to work the next morning. Maybe there's stimulator training at the regional naval facility or online training, and then a month long event each year where people can have a travel day, train hard aboard ship for a month with no days off, then get a travel day home.
I see the Reserve in one of two ways:

A] A reservist serves one year in four as an Active Reservist on a ship of the Subsector Fleet. While on Active status, they're treated in all ways like a Regular Navy spacehand of their grade, except that the Reserve maintain separate promotion lists.
or
B] Since many, perhaps most, A and B ports have an Imperial Navy presence, there is a Reservist facility where that world's Reservist records are maintained, where issue deployment equipment is kept, etc. This is where the Reservists train one weekend a month and two weeks a year helping with minor repairs on IN ships in port and the various in-system work that every Navy needs done.
 
Where do they mobilise the sector fleet to?

Their own attack plan, which could focus on occupying or destroying enemy systems vital to their offensive (staging area systems, shipyards, industrial systems, chokepoints in enemy territory).

Their defense plan, which could involved reinforcing chokepoints to prevent the enemy moving further into friendly territory or defending one's own high value systems.

Given the communications lag, I suppose sector fleets would be used as a offensive strike force. Their commanders would have no way of knowing what enemy forces were doing, therefore attempting to find and engage them would be futile. Instead, they could take the sector fleets into enemy space to destroy as many assets important to the enemy's war effort as possible, and destroy any enemy elements they meet along the way. They could use the sector fleet offensive task force to create the same problem that the enemy is creating for them.

This difficulty of defending against an invading fleet reminds me of something like Mutually Assured Destruction. If an aggressor sends fleets to invade and ravage the defender's systems, then the defender will do the same. Both parties will have the same difficulty in defending their space, and both parties will suffer. Offensive fleets will not stop until they can't continue offensive operations, because couriers carrying orders to stop will have the same difficulty in finding them as do the defending fleets. Counteroffensives could involve striking at logistical hubs and interdicting supply routes to place invading fleets in an untenable position until they withdraw. A defensive tactic could be fortifying and reinforcing chokepoints and high value systems.

Invading fleets would still need supplies. They'd need new air filters, missiles/ammo, repair parts, food, medical supplies, replacement personnel, all that. If an invading fleet stops to loot a planet for supplies, what are they going to do, send down landing parties to hold up supermarkets? They would need spy networks in place with targets already identified. Planetary defenders could have asset destruction, concealment, or dispersement plans in place. Assets could be heavily defended or mined to cause attrition to limited fleet marine units. If the fleet demands the cooperation of the defenders on pain of orbital bombardment, the defenders could take their time, pinning the invading fleet in one location for a week. Defenders might prefer a relatively quick death by orbital bombardment to starving to death. Imperial forces on the planet, who are not from there, could decide to deny the enemy supplies and let the planetary population suffer. The greater good and all that, don'cha know.

It reminds me of the scene in Braveheart where the prince asks King Edward Longshanks how his army can participate in the battle, given the time it will take them to get there, and KEL said he sent them before he even sent the princess to negotiate.

 
Their own attack plan, which could focus on occupying or destroying enemy systems vital to their offensive (staging area systems, shipyards, industrial systems, chokepoints in enemy territory).
Meanwhile you have lost all yours. Note the Imperium has never counter-invaded Zhodani space.
Their defense plan, which could involved reinforcing chokepoints to prevent the enemy moving further into friendly territory or defending one's own high value systems.
Easily avoided, look at the map.
Given the communications lag, I suppose sector fleets would be used as a offensive strike force. Their commanders would have no way of knowing what enemy forces were doing, therefore attempting to find and engage them would be futile. Instead, they could take the sector fleets into enemy space to destroy as many assets important to the enemy's war effort as possible, and destroy any enemy elements they meet along the way. They could use the sector fleet offensive task force to create the same problem that the enemy is creating for them.
Again, this is something the Imperium has never done, they lack the resources.
This difficulty of defending against an invading fleet reminds me of something like Mutually Assured Destruction. If an aggressor sends fleets to invade and ravage the defender's systems, then the defender will do the same. Both parties will have the same difficulty in defending their space, and both parties will suffer. Offensive fleets will not stop until they can't continue offensive operations, because couriers carrying orders to stop will have the same difficulty in finding them as do the defending fleets. Counteroffensives could involve striking at logistical hubs and interdicting supply routes to place invading fleets in an untenable position until they withdraw. A defensive tactic could be fortifying and reinforcing chokepoints and high value systems.
This is how the Julian Protectorate won against the Imperium. They avoided Imperial fleets and conducted commerce raiding and base destruction "behind the lines".
There are no choke points if you have drop tanks.
Invading fleets would still need supplies. They'd need new air filters, missiles/ammo, repair parts, food, medical supplies, replacement personnel, all that. If an invading fleet stops to loot a planet for supplies, what are they going to do, send down landing parties to hold up supermarkets? They would need spy networks in place with targets already identified. Planetary defenders could have asset destruction, concealment, or dispersement plans in place. Assets could be heavily defended or mined to cause attrition to limited fleet marine units. If the fleet demands the cooperation of the defenders on pain of orbital bombardment, the defenders could take their time, pinning the invading fleet in one location for a week. Defenders might prefer a relatively quick death by orbital bombardment to starving to death. Imperial forces on the planet, who are not from there, could decide to deny the enemy supplies and let the planetary population suffer. The greater good and all that, don'cha know.
Surrender or we glass you from orbit - worked for the Vilani.
It reminds me of the scene in Braveheart where the prince asks King Edward Longshanks how his army can participate in the battle, given the time it will take them to get there, and KEL said he sent them before he even sent the princess to negotiate.

A fine bit of Hollywood fantasy.
 
Note the Imperium has never counter-invaded Zhodani space.

Because it's a work of fiction.

Meanwhile you have lost all yours.

Which would happen anyway because of futility of trying to intercept invading fleets.

Easily avoided, look at the map.
There are no choke points if you have drop tanks.

Of course, but naval planners would at least try. It would depend on their intelligence estimate of enemy fleet jump ranges. Forcing an invading fleet to take extra jumps even with drop tanks would increase reaction time defending fleets have to reinforce likely targets.

Again, this is something the Imperium has never done, they lack the resources.

I disagree. They haven't done it because the writers didn't write them doing it, no other reason. As for resources the Imperium has effectively 15 sectors to Zhodane's effective 8, and all Imperium offensive fleets would be concentrated in relatively small front in the Spinward Marches until they broke through into the Consulate.

Surrender or we glass you from orbit - worked for the Vilani.

Again, because the writers wrote the lore that way. The Vilani were also negotiating from a position of overwhelming strength with no peer or near-peer opponents (of course there were exceptions, but these were rare). This makes it plausible.

Even if a world surrenders instantly, they will not be able to provide anything other than materials and food. Even then, materials and food will take at least a week to gather and prepare for pickup. This delays the invading fleet's movements, and it still doesn't get replacement parts, ammunition, etc.

Glassing worlds from orbit would only waste limited supplies of warheads, fill the rest of the defending empire with rage, unify its population in support of the war, and give the defending empire's forces the moral license to do the same to the aggressor's worlds to the utmost of their ability. And it would be all for basic supplies, a pittance in the grand scheme of things. Once the defending empire finds out, the war would be very hard to stop. Once defending fleet commanders find out what the aggressors have done, no aggressor world within range of their jump drives would be safe from glassing raids.

The lore has the Imperium letting itself get beaten like a dog again and again, despite its advantages. One would think after the second, third, fourth, or fifth frontier war, that the Imperium would get its act together, engage in a massive military buildup over many years, and put an end to the Zhodani threat.

A fine bit of Hollywood fantasy.

Of course, that's what Hollywood does. The scene still illustrates the idea.
 
This is also why I'm a big proponent of more (many many more) ships for a fleet. I don't see how the massive dreadnought squadrons can hope to defeat someone who just has millions of <1000 ton ships. Sure, they would win any battles, but they would completely lose the war.
 
It's one reason Navy Intelligence has to figure out intent and objectives, so that you can predict where and when the enemy will strike next.




Preemptive strike.
 
This is also why I'm a big proponent of more (many many more) ships for a fleet. I don't see how the massive dreadnought squadrons can hope to defeat someone who just has millions of <1000 ton ships. Sure, they would win any battles, but they would completely lose the war.

I think it would entirely depend on the ability of the <1000 ton ships to carry armament which could affect larger ships, and the ability of the capital ships to destroy the <1000 ton ships.

Example: In WW2 there was a naval battle near Norway in which the Royal Air Force sent aircraft to attack a small German fleet centered around a battleship (I think it was the Scharnhorst or Tirpitz).

The aircraft were much faster than the ships and they carried bombs and torpedoes capable of damaging the ships, and the ships' anti-aircraft defenses were not particularly effective.

In this case the small cheap numerous aircraft were a very dangerous threat to the large expensive ships, and they proved very effective.


For a numerically superior group of <1000 ton ships to prove effective against a smaller force of larger more powerful capital ships, the same conditions would have to hold true:
  • The <1000 ton ships would have to have weapons capable of causing serious damage to the capital ships.
  • The <1000 ton ships would have to have immensely superior speed and maneuverability to the capital ships.
  • The capital ships' weapons would have to be largely ineffective against the <1000 ton ships for whatever reason.
  • The <1000 ton ships would have to be supported by a logistical chain capable of keeping them battle ready.
  • The <1000 ton ships would have to be able to neutralize the capital ships faster than the capital ships could destroy them.
The last point is the most important. That's all it comes down to. Can the <1000 ton ships neutralize the capital ships before they capital ships neutralize them.

Capital ships in Traveller don't operate by themselves, but in a fleet of supporting warships, so those smaller supporting ships would have to be taken into account.

I'm not sure the necessary conditions could be maintained in Traveller.
  • Missiles would be useful against capital ships, but the <1000 ton ships would have to be numerous enough that their missile rate of fire would overwhelm the capital ships' point defense weapons. I'm including missile-carrying fighters.
  • Can lasers and non-missile weapons small enough to be mounted on <1000 ton ship hardpoints affect a 200,000 ton Plankwell class Dreadnought? A 500,000 ton Tigress? I'm not familiar enough with the relevant MgT 2e rules to know.
  • The maneuver advantage is gone because a Plankwell class dreadnought can pull 5G's and a Tigress class dreadnought can pull 6G's (according to the Traveller wiki, I don't know what it is under MgT 2E rules). That would enable the dreadnoughts to keep slower ships at the range of their choosing and match the speeds of any <1000 ton ships they'll face.
  • <1000 ton ships would be easily destroyed by capital ship weapons. It's a question of how quickly.
  • If a capital ship user knows that possible opponents are using swarms of <1000 ships, they'll include plenty of escorts for point defense, missile capability, and for engaging those ships. They would do the calculations and know how many escorts to assign to the capital ship fleet to protect the capital ships and give them time to use their powerful weapons reduce the <1000 ton ships by attrition before they can destroy the capital ship fleet.
 
Page 27 of Highguard '22: specifically ships of 100,000 tons or more ignore criticals (by Effect) of all but large bays and spinal mounts. Hard to get a large bay in a 1,000 ton ship. Missile salvos would eventual wear down the dreadnaughts, but if they had military armour (which only ships of 5,000+ tons can have) then they can stop all but nukes. Or torpedoes.

Of course if you're fighting small fry, you wouldn't give your capital ships giant spinal weapons, but but missile bays can give you the mix of large and small salvos you want for a variety of targets. And ships 25,000+ tons get more hull per ton, making them tougher.

Just prior to the dreadnaught era, the French were all excited about a torpedo boat strategy which was exactly that: small boats to swarm capital ships. The response was 'torpedo boat destroyers' (aka destroyers), but I'm not sure if the strategy would have held water or not... because (hidden pun here) it sort of worked with submarines instead of torpedo boats..
 
This is also why I'm a big proponent of more (many many more) ships for a fleet. I don't see how the massive dreadnought squadrons can hope to defeat someone who just has millions of <1000 ton ships. Sure, they would win any battles, but they would completely lose the war.

I'm not sure they'd lose the war either. The navy fielding swarms of <1000 ton ships would have to have overwhelming numerical superiority every time they had contact with the enemy. The attrition math would have to be in their favor even when they faced system defense fleets and system defenses. If they would lose battles, an offensive capital ship fleet could cut through their defenses and systematically destroy every high value target (industrial centers, shipyards, etc.). The swarm fleets would have to either group up to have the attrition math in their favor or disperse into smaller fleets to attack many lightly defended targets. risking their attritional superiority.

It becomes a contest of resources and industrial capacity. The navy fielding the <1000 ton ship swarm fleets would have to have such an industrial and resource advantage that they could build numerous-enough swarm fleets that they could either take down fleets with capital ships + escorts or attack in so many places at once that they can do enough damage to end the war before the capital ship fleets could stop them.

If the two navies have roughly equal industrial capacity and resources, it would be something like pitting 10,000 infantry against 8,000 infantry with a strong artillery component. Or, 10 million <1000 ton ships against 8 million <1000 ships + a capital ship group with each <1000 ton ship fleet. It would be dicey at best.

In Traveller, it would all depend on how the space combat rules work out the attrition math.
 
Page 27 of Highguard '22: specifically ships of 100,000 tons or more ignore criticals (by Effect) of all but large bays and spinal mounts. Hard to get a large bay in a 1,000 ton ship. Missile salvos would eventual wear down the dreadnaughts, but if they had military armour (which only ships of 5,000+ tons can have) then they can stop all but nukes. Or torpedoes.

Of course if you're fighting small fry, you wouldn't give your capital ships giant spinal weapons, but but missile bays can give you the mix of large and small salvos you want for a variety of targets. And ships 25,000+ tons get more hull per ton, making them tougher.

Just prior to the dreadnaught era, the French were all excited about a torpedo boat strategy which was exactly that: small boats to swarm capital ships. The response was 'torpedo boat destroyers' (aka destroyers), but I'm not sure if the strategy would have held water or not... because (hidden pun here) it sort of worked with submarines instead of torpedo boats..

Very pertinent.

And that's a good point, if the navy fielding capital ships knows the opposing navy fields only <1000 ton ship swarm fleets, it would fit its capital ships with numerous meson bays rather than meson spinal weapons, and numerous missile, particle beam, and laser bays. Enemy nukes and torpedoes would have to make it though withering point defense fire given the number of lasers large ships would have.
 
Turn of the previous century, navies were trying to figure out how to cope with the consequences of technological advancement, and resource management.

The French did have a go at the Jeune Ecole doctrine, which would be an emphasis on asymmetrical warfare.

Secondary armament on cruisers and battleships was optimized to deal with fast moving torpedo platforms, and taking a conservative view, the British increased that, or went back, to the six incher, which I think was their reaction to the increasing size of destroyers.

You could commission a torpedo boat carrier/tender, that can be used to move large numbers of five hundred tonne bay platforms to a system earmarked to interdict a battle group.
 
It also opens the scary topic of what do system defenses actually look like. Can your swarm of 1000 ton ships actually threaten the important systems? Traveller basically skips the topic other than to suggest some worlds are fortresses.
 
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