Who Builds Imperial Navy Ships and Where Do They Do It?

[Nelphine]

Right but.. local has a manufacturer plant wirh some level of fabricators. They don't have travel costs. How are you offering it cheaper?

(How is anyone not TL 12+, assuming they don't have a social/religious/psychological reason to reject tech out of hand? If they can afford trade at any level beyond knick knacks, just import manufacturing plants so that you can make everything you want locally?)

 

[MonsterX]

Obviously, if you are growing stuff in gardens, even space gardens in pressurized greenhouses, you'll be growing the real thing. I am talking about direct conversion of organic matter into food - as described, for example, in the

Spoiler: very very minor Deepnight Legacy Spoiler

kitchen in Deepnight Legacy.

. Food grown in space greenhouses would be a lot more expensive than that, and take up a lot of space.

If you want to assume that everything anyone needs or wants can be more cheaply produced by fabricators, then the only constraint is the availability of all necessary elements. That's fine and it is probably what would happen in a tech 15 scenario. I assume differently, not because of realism but because I want a logic of trade, in which TL15 planets have reasons to trade with TL8 planets, or even TL3 planets.

So my assumptions are that fabricators can be used for anything, but the bulk of it is small, and the processing of the original material limited - so they are extremely useful devices if, for example, you need a B17 resistor right now to get your engine going again, but normally you'd buy your B17 resistors from the B17 resistor store. They could make you a pile of food goo out of soil that smells vaguely like said soil, but won't make you a tasty meal. If you want to assume something else, go ahead, it's not illogical, but if you follow through the logic of being able to get anything you want with a few minutes access to a fabricator, it kind of breaks the universe, since the higher tech systems would stop trading.

 

[Nelphine]

Yeah that's basically my problem (and why I don't allow fabricators, or even manufacturing plants at the level described). They make trade (largely) pointless.

 

[Sigtrygg]

I'm intrigued and I do not want to offend.
Are there no robotic factories in your setting? At what TL does knowledge of 3d printing and cad/cam etc get banned or is it a case of it was never discovered?

 

[Nelphine]

its, not exactly. i just carefully avoid interacting with them. they don't happen to be available for purchase, you can't design them in ships, but.. Presumably They Exist.. you just never see them.

i logic myself into silliness by including them, so i just don't. but i don't say they don't exist at all, because i can logic myself into silliness that way too.

so a better phrase would have been 'i ignore them' rather than i don't allow them.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Yeah that's basically my problem (and why I don't allow fabricators, or even manufacturing plants at the level described). They make trade (largely) pointless.

Everything Fabricators can produce is 2 TLs below the TL of the Fabricator. So, a TL-13 society can't use fabricators even for spare parts, because the spare parts will be TL-11, not TL-13. This gives a reason for Manufacturing Plants, but not for Trade.

You are correct, there is no reason for trade in the 57th century. Even with all of the time I spent on trade routes, trade rules, and economics in this game, the hardcore reality is, that trade is unnecessary after TL-12 as long as you have access to raw materials, and raw materials should be plentiful in every system. Trade would only be done when one system's needs are greater than their production capacity, which kind of blows up the Traveller trade game. lol

 

[Vormaerin]

There's a difference between 3d printing and Star Trek replicators that you can comfortably live in. At least, I can. Vat food is vat food, whether it is cultured or printed IMC.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Remember how the Vilani stagnated their culture at TL11?
I would suggest that the Third Imperium imposes trade rules that prevent planets from becoming post scarcity.

 

[MasterGwydion]

There's a difference between 3d printing and Star Trek replicators that you can comfortably live in. At least, I can. Vat food is vat food, whether it is cultured or printed IMC.

I figure that if you can 3D print of fully functional genetically perfect limb replacement, then printing the ingredients to cook a meal should be easy. This lies in below the Star Trek replicator which produces already cooked and heated food.

 

[Sigtrygg]

There's a difference between 3d printing and Star Trek replicators that you can comfortably live in. At least, I can. Vat food is vat food, whether it is cultured or printed IMC.

You don't need replicators.
By TL12 you have unlimited cheap fusion power and gravitics.
Anything you can imagine industry here on Earth in the early twenty first century can produce a TL12 society can do faster and cheaper.
They can build agricultural factories to mass produce plants and food animals, these can be multistory controlled environment facilities that can cater for greater than the Earth's population today. They can be orbital stations or asteroid bases.
They can synthesise any polymer, any alloy, any protein, any crystal etc.
They have robotic factories to mass produce the widgets needed for other robot factories to assemble anything that can be built at TL12.

Once you sit down and think about it the Traveller setting of a TL15 society needs a radical re-imagining.

TL8 is fusion and early gravitics - super spy technothriller
TL9 is mature fusion, mature gravitics and the discovery of jump, your typical sci fi setting.
TL10 is different how? What sets a TL10 culture above a TL9?
TL11 a better jump performance, but once again what sets a TL11 society apart from a TL10?
TL12 could easily be post scarcity, what would a TL12 society imagine a TL15 culture to be like?

 

[Vormaerin]

The excessive gradiation of TL is one of the things I dispose of IMTU. As you say, who can visualize the difference between a TL 10 and TL 11 society? Especially with trade moving stuff around? Not me.

I have "Early Space," "Standard (Mature?) Space" and "Advanced Space".

I do agree that we have no way of knowing what that technology could achieve. Why is there trade? How is it cheaper to take stuff from Star System A to Star System B instead of just getting that stuff from within Star System B? It's not impossible that this makes sense, but it's easily imaginable that it does not.

Even without going post scarcity. Though Post Scarcity frankly seems pretty likely with the technology and vast amounts of resources multiple solar systems would provide. You just have to decide if that's the kind of gameplay you want or not. Sometimes I do and I run something closer to the Culture or Mindjammer. Sometimes I don't and I run a "typical" Traveller campaign in the Islands where basically everyone is in the 7-12 TL range and I don't have to worry about what's going on at Vincennes.

 

[Condottiere]

Assume that freight rates aren't fixed.

Or, that they are subsidized.

Then, government policy on import and export tariffs and duties.

And, possibly, Universalization.

 

[Vormaerin]

Of course freight rates aren't fixed. The only reason that they are is ease of play. That's totally a game mechanic, not a description of what's really happening in game. Just like how ship mortgages assume all the other expenses a ship has like insurance, routine maintenance, business licenses, registration fees, crew certification, and everything else. Because very few people want to itemize all that in actual play.

 

[Geir]

Of course freight rates aren't fixed. The only reason that they are is ease of play. That's totally a game mechanic, not a description of what's really happening in game. Just like how ship mortgages assume all the other expenses a ship has like insurance, routine maintenance, business licenses, registration fees, crew certification, and everything else. Because very few people want to itemize all that in actual play.

"Accountants in Space" may be useful as optional things to consider in a Merchant Prince supplement, but in most campaigns following the inspectors around while they count emergency vacc suits and look for the proper labeling of hazardous equipment at just about every starport is rather tedious. "And may we see the logs for you departure from Ruie, please." (note that it was not a question)

(Presently in the middle of what should be the last Critical Infrastructure audit of my career (the 'friendly' auditors only come by every three years, unless you've been very bad). Every day brings another point towards my Admin skills and away from my Sanity characteristic... one more week...

 

[MasterGwydion]

You don't need replicators.
By TL12 you have unlimited cheap fusion power and gravitics.
Anything you can imagine industry here on Earth in the early twenty first century can produce a TL12 society can do faster and cheaper.
They can build agricultural factories to mass produce plants and food animals, these can be multistory controlled environment facilities that can cater for greater than the Earth's population today. They can be orbital stations or asteroid bases.
They can synthesise any polymer, any alloy, any protein, any crystal etc.
They have robotic factories to mass produce the widgets needed for other robot factories to assemble anything that can be built at TL12.

Once you sit down and think about it the Traveller setting of a TL15 society needs a radical re-imagining.

TL8 is fusion and early gravitics - super spy technothriller
TL9 is mature fusion, mature gravitics and the discovery of jump, your typical sci fi setting.
TL10 is different how? What sets a TL10 culture above a TL9?
TL11 a better jump performance, but once again what sets a TL11 society apart from a TL10?
TL12 could easily be post scarcity, what would a TL12 society imagine a TL15 culture to be like?

https://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Tech_Level_Comparison_Chart

This should help you out with the differences between TLs by looking at what is listed at each TL and comparing them.

 

[Sigtrygg]

I am well aware of the chart, it doesn't help with what I am questioning.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I am well aware of the chart, it doesn't help with what I am questioning.

What sets a TL-10 civ above a TL-9 civ?
Anti-Virals. Practical Weather Control. Artificial Gravity. Undersea Cities. Grav Vehicles become the standard. Also, tractor beams.

What sets a TL-11 society apart from the TL-10?
Gravitically-supported structures. Fusion power plants small enough for commercial vehicles and aircraft. Combat Armor and Meson Guns.

 

[Geir]

You don't need replicators.
By TL12 you have unlimited cheap fusion power and gravitics.
Anything you can imagine industry here on Earth in the early twenty first century can produce a TL12 society can do faster and cheaper.
They can build agricultural factories to mass produce plants and food animals, these can be multistory controlled environment facilities that can cater for greater than the Earth's population today. They can be orbital stations or asteroid bases.
They can synthesise any polymer, any alloy, any protein, any crystal etc.
They have robotic factories to mass produce the widgets needed for other robot factories to assemble anything that can be built at TL12.

Once you sit down and think about it the Traveller setting of a TL15 society needs a radical re-imagining.

TL8 is fusion and early gravitics - super spy technothriller
TL9 is mature fusion, mature gravitics and the discovery of jump, your typical sci fi setting.
TL10 is different how? What sets a TL10 culture above a TL9?
TL11 a better jump performance, but once again what sets a TL11 society apart from a TL10?
TL12 could easily be post scarcity, what would a TL12 society imagine a TL15 culture to be like?

What you're seeing is a side effect of Traveller (no, not Traveller, but the Third Imperium) being based on Golden Age Sci-fi. Try reading a Piper book and imagining you're not in the 1950s. At least Asimov made an attempt, but that was mostly fallback to older tropes. (which is part of why I liked the Apple TV Foundation series - at least it updates it a bit, though I think it went off the track (over the shark?) at the end of the second season, plus Salvor Hardin was my favorite character ).

The names for the Tech Eras: Pre-Stellar, Early Stellar, Average Stellar, High Stellar - not a hard theme to follow - shows that lack of cultural evolution. Also why I prefer TL13 being the top available TL. But a home brew universe isn't limited to the old tropes, isn't even limited to jump drive as a method of being 'stellar' - The Clement sector stuff makes an attempt at bridging Traveller and 2300, though I'm not sure that it really presses on any societal or cultural changes at all - it's just nation states in space, and oh, here's some longevity and biotech to spice (?) it up.

Wrong thread for it, but a new 'official' universe with the core mechanics but varying developments (high TL for FTL being one that could change a lot, but just not that) and culture would be a good thing. The 3I is literally stuck in a forty year time loop with predestination (Wave, Virus) locked into future canon.

 

[Sigtrygg]

What sets a TL-10 civ above a TL-9 civ?
Anti-Virals. Practical Weather Control. Artificial Gravity. Undersea Cities. Grav Vehicles become the standard. Also, tractor beams.

How is society different? Which technologies make a real difference between TL9 and 10 because that list is sadly lacking in progress.
Gravitics are common at TL9, artificial gravity has been possible since TL8, how does a tractor beam revolutionise society?

What sets a TL-11 society apart from the TL-10?
Gravitically-supported structures. Fusion power plants small enough for commercial vehicles and aircraft. Combat Armor and Meson Guns.

What, gravitics couldn't support stuff at TL9? How did they build TL9 gravitic jump ships? Small fision plants may have an effect, but are they different enough to be culturally significant? Combat armour is not exactly a new concept.
At least "meson" technology represents a new physics breakthrough since the gravitics of TL8/9, jump travel at TL9.

 

[Condottiere]

War may be the only thing really pushing technological advancement in Traveller.