Imperial Marines vs Imperial Army

that assumes all naval construction is done ONLY at Depots... a quick search of the various sourcebooks blows that notion out of the water. GSbAG per the sector sourcebooks maintains military shipyards on many worlds that are NOT Depots. And with security being primary... one would naturally assume using that great thing called common sense they would have primary shipyards for such a vital ship design to be well away from prying eyes and all the traffic that passes through Naval Depots. A good example is the GSbAG owned system in the Dagudashaag Sector. An Amber zone system... enter close to their shipyards and testing facilities and you will be stopped and turned around at best or impounded at worst while you get waterboarded to ascertain who you are working for haha. That is what high security is worthy of protecting the secrets behind the high tech systems and weapons your enemies don't have but would love to have... and you don't get that a Naval Depot.
Naval Depots are entirely restricted systems. With SDBs ranging from 200 tons all the way up to 1.5-million-ton monitors. That is not to mention the rest of the Security Fleet which include jump-capable combat vessels or the Training Fleet, nor the fact that Depots have more Sector Fleet ships than any other Starports in their respective Sectors. This all comes right out of the Third Imperium book.

I said Depots are where they build most of the ships, not all. They likely do build military ships other places, just not Tigress-class ships.

For the record, in the OTU, no Megacorp has more combat ships and security in one system, than are found at the Imperial Navy Depots.
 
So do I. I am just saying the SUNBURST on the front needs to be IMPERIAL ARMY BLACK (trimmed in silver to make it stand out a bit from the olive of the rest of the book-cover).

ahh.. yeah I barfed up your post :cautious:... but black sunburst?? Hmm.. this murican male meathead but Italian trained fashionista would naturally ask... and just did to the better half who has more style in her pinkie than my 160 pounds of bones... hey darling!!! What colors looks best with Olive Green? Bright colors!!! Yeah I could see that. I'd say orange would make that color pop and sizzle... or better yet.. let's go 21st century and get back in touch with our pastel loving retro 80's Miami Vice sides... salmon pink!!!
 
bugs-bunny-astronaut_looney-tunes_gallery_612ecee57f62a_1024x.jpg


Space Maroon.
 
yeah... canon that naval ships are not constructed by the Navy.. but by Megacorps. No different that is has always been. The navy sails them, the military-industrial complex builds the systems and weapons. Not those that use them. In OTU that is primarily GSbAG after they bought out the ancient ship building company of the Vilani Zirunkariish megacorp.

canon that naval shipbuilding yards are not located only at Depots...

canon that the most sensitive ships.. the highest tech ones are constructed are constructed at a very limited number of facilities far from the borders which would mean... in the core sectors. You know.. the ones not on the borders.

sort of end of that discussion as I see it. Canon is OTU is it not. It is clearly stated that the Tigress was built and first issued to core systems and over time were sent to the borders. High tech weapons evolve from the core to the fringes. The Tigress is a perfect example and would apply to equipment issued to Marine and Army units. Why should the Third Imperium be any different espeicially in lieu of nothing canon to the contrary. What has the main goal of any state been.. first and foremost.. its own protection. Those closest to.. guarding the seat of power will have the latest and best available weapons.

 
yeah... canon that naval ships are not constructed by the Navy.. but by Megacorps. No different that is has always been. The navy sails them, the military-industrial complex builds the systems and weapons. Not those that use them. In OTU that is primarily GSbAG after they bought out the ancient ship building company of the Vilani Zirunkariish megacorp.

canon that naval shipbuilding yards are not located only at Depots...

canon that the most sensitive ships.. the highest tech ones are constructed are constructed at a very limited number of facilities far from the borders which would mean... in the core sectors. You know.. the ones not on the borders.

sort of end of that discussion as I see it. Canon is OTU is it not. It is clearly stated that the Tigress was built and first issued to core systems and over time were sent to the borders. High tech weapons evolve from the core to the fringes. The Tigress is a perfect example and would apply to equipment issued to Marine and Army units. Why should the Third Imperium be any different espeicially in lieu of nothing canon to the contrary. What has the main goal of any state been.. first and foremost.. its own protection. Those closest to.. guarding the seat of power will have the latest and best available weapons.

Okay. I am done here since you are incapable of listening or understanding English. I am not sure which. You keep repeating things that I never said. I never said that Naval shipbuilding only occurs at Depots. I never said that the most high-tech ships are not constructed at a very limited number of shipyards. I never said that those same shipyards are located on the borders. I even specifically said that the Tigress-class was likely not built in Corridor or Deneb, because those areas count as "border areas".

I have given numerous citations of Canon, which was not contradicted by any of your citations. So I am at a loss for how you can say, "in lieu of nothing canon to the contrary". I gave you the evidence to the contrary. You ignored it. Have a nice day.
 
Okay. I am done here since you are incapable of listening or understanding English. I am not sure which. You keep repeating things that I never said. I never said that Naval shipbuilding only occurs at Depots. I never said that the most high-tech ships are not constructed at a very limited number of shipyards. I never said that those same shipyards are located on the borders. I even specifically said that the Tigress-class was likely not built in Corridor or Deneb, because those areas count as "border areas".

I have given numerous citations of Canon, which was not contradicted by any of your citations. So I am at a loss for how you can say, "in lieu of nothing canon to the contrary". I gave you the evidence to the contrary. You ignored it. Have a nice day.

funny I was thinking the same about you... oh well... you stuck on Third Imperium books mentioning of Depots building ships and ignored all that said that they were not the only ones building ships and that the Megacorps do build them. Best end this conversation I suppose. As you say.. have a good one buddy.
 
ahh.. yeah I barfed up your post :cautious:... but black sunburst?? Hmm.. this murican male meathead but Italian trained fashionista would naturally ask... and just did to the better half who has more style in her pinkie than my 160 pounds of bones... hey darling!!! What colors looks best with Olive Green? Bright colors!!! Yeah I could see that. I'd say orange would make that color pop and sizzle... or better yet.. let's go 21st century and get back in touch with our pastel loving retro 80's Miami Vice sides... salmon pink!!!

Yes, but the Imperial Army uses a Black Sunburst as its Emblematic Symbol, just as the Imperial Marines use Maroon (and the Imperial Marine Banner is a Maroon Sunburst on Gold).
 
Yes, but the Imperial Army uses a Black Sunburst as its Emblematic Symbol, just as the Imperial Marines use Maroon (and the Imperial Marine Banner is a Maroon Sunburst on Gold).

well crap then... there goes my dream career as Traveller fashion color coordinator and rocking the staid old guard establishment with bold new stylistic choices...

black it would be I guess!!
 
I use GT: Ground Forces as my model for Imperial ground troops. Here are the high points in re: the Marines

- The Marines are the Imperium's surgical strike team. They are the Pros from Mora, Personal Violence made manifest. Marine doctrine stresses aggression over finesse and applies that aggression at the fulcrum of the problem. Marines take very few prisoners because when they're done with what they do, there's very few bad guys left to surrender.
- Marine doctrine is as a striking force in raids. It is long on teeth and short on tail. It has fewer artillery battalions and MUCH fewer vehicles. Most combat service support personnel [engineers, medical, chaplains, logistics, etc.] are Navy.
- Marines use a three battalion regiment model. Each battalion has 4 companies and a small HQ element. This will occasionally be augmented by a company of grav tanks from a Marine Armored Regiment. In standard rotation, one battalion is ashore providing garrisons, training, on leave, and available for emergency deployment, the second battalion is deployed on capital ships [either en masse aboard the squadron flagship or in companies divided among the ships of the squadron] and the third is broken up as ship's troops detachments on cruisers and the patrol vessels of the Reserve Fleets. These unit assignments change on an annual rotation basis.
- The Marines are equipped with the absolute best equipment that is available. That means TL 13-14 Battle Dress and Plasma Guns for the line Marines supported by several in TL 15 Battle Dress with Fusion Guns as support.
- All Marines are drop- and protected forces trained by definition, however they much prefer to deploy in Astrin GAPCs.
- The Marine Regiment is a combat formation and is designed to be deployed together.
- There are no Marine Divisions. The largest Marine unit deployed is the Marine Brigade, a group of two entire regiments with a battalion from Marine Armored. In a Bad War situation, the Marines are mostly deployed as battalions or regiments.
I use CT/MegaTRav/TNE as my model for the Imperial Army, Imperial Marines and local troops/colonial troops.
It is explicitly different as a construct than that created by Doug for the GURPS Traveller Alternate Universe in his "Ground Forces". Doug essentially riffed off 19th/20th Earth, moving it forward to the 57th Century. For some reason he ignored the vehicles already specified in the OTU (see below) for the Marines, and instead decreed they used the Trepida tank and Astrin APC (which in the OTU are Imperial Army vehicles and which are only TL14 and not TL15).

In CT the Marines are detailed beginning with the chargen in the LBBs and Book 4: Mercenary; then in the article by Loren in JTAS #12 (which Mongoose has replicated in its own JTAS issue; and in Adventure 1: Kinunir we see a shipboard unit detailed; while in CT/Striker Book 3 we see the Imperial Marine Grav APC (TL15) detailed; in 5FW boardgame we see the disposition of the Imperial Marines in the Marches (with Imperial Marine Regiments being elite units on a scale of about 1 per subsector in this part of the Imperium, with an IN BatRon or CruRon able to carry a Marine Regt.); while in Invasion: Earth boardgame we see that for temporary duty an Imperial Marine division-sized unit was formed during the Solomani Rim War.

In MegaTrav we see in 101 Vehicles that the Imperial Marine Grav APC from Striker has a name (the Empress).

In TNE Regency Sourcebook and Regency Combat Vehicle Guide we see the disposition of Marine Regiments across the Spinward Marches after the 5FW, and the vehicles they use are detailed extremely comprehensively.

The OTU Marines are organised in Regiments but operate in Task Forces. A Marine regiment has three task force HQs. Subordinate companies of the regiment and any attached troops, are task assigned to HQs as is required for the mission, such as interdiction of a world: "it is not unknown for them to be apart for years".
A marine regiment has a total of nine line marine companies available (a line company has an HQ and four platoons in APCs - unless ships troops). It also has five batteries of meson guns. It has two lift cavalry companies and one grav tank company.
The organisations of all units at company and below are constant and remain the same regardless of assignment.
All marine line troops are jump trained, and are issued jump capsules if the mission warrants. Marines are equipped to TL15 standards, including Battle Dress and FGMP-14s.
 
I've included Marine Armor in my Marine organization.
The difference is that the Marines use tanks mostly for infantry support and less so for the cavalry /screening function, but that's a matter of doctrine not equipment.
The Imperial Marines tend to need less artillery because they can rely on dedicated orbital artillery and their own COACC assets instead of guns or MLRS systems. Why field a battery of meson artillery platforms when the ship that delivered you has a spinal mount that'll do the exact same thing, right?
My TU vision for the Marines is the classic CT mission set: drop on a world, wreck everything, establish an LZ and hand off to the Army to grind the conquest /pacification missions. They are no better or worse than the Army in ground warfare simply because they're trained for different mission parameters.
 
As described, there are not enough Marines to go around, assuming five thousand per subsector.

Considering the cost of interstellar transportation, Army Groups tend to stay in a given subsector.
 
A bit more on heraldry of the Imperium from TD #9
View attachment 2042
Just an addition for this...
Like the Imperial Japanese Chrysanthemum the Imperial Sunburst has a specific number of rays emitted by the solar globe, 21 rays for the official Seal of the Third Imperium. This implies that this is an official document carrying the Imperial Mandate [the Basic Law of the Third Imperium].
An interesting precedent occurs in the Japanese Imperial Chrysanthemum mon that may also be applicable to the Sunburst. The Emperor of Japan's personal mon is of 16 petals. Other members of the Imperial Family may use a chrysanthemum of 14 petals and members of the Diet 18 petals.
By extrapolation it could be said IYTU that any alternate number of Sunburst rays be a government official, or other logo, but does not represent the Imperial Mandate in specific.
Link to the Traveller wiki article 'Imperial Sunburst'

Link to wikipedia page 'Imperial Seal of Japan'
 
Another thing I picked up from Travellers Digest that I choose to keep IMTU is from TD Issue 13, Earth!
In the article 'The Uniforms of the Terran Occupation Force', Dave Nilsen described the official Sunburst of the Imperial Marine Force as having a cutlass superimposed over the solar orb with its point downward, symbolizing the Marine mission of dropping from space. All Marine insignia that features a cutlass has the cutlass pointed 'down the well'. The sole exception is the Marine Grav Cavalry [IMTU it's Marine Armored Regiments, 'marine cavalry' just sounds silly to me], where the Marine Cutlass is shown with a gauntleted fist holding a cutlass in the traditional 'Charge!' position.
That's a very IMTU thing, take it or leave it, but I kind of like the symbolism.
Another IMTU thing I do with Marine insignia is that each regiment has the same insignia: the Imperial Marine Force 'burst and blade' with the Marine Regimental number on a scroll lengthwise across the center. A particularly honored regiment may add two scrolls above and below, one with an honored battle and year above and a war cry /motto below.
 
Oh, I'm aware of the horse marines, but they only existed for a short time. They were a temporary measure for non-motorized couriers and patrols in China and Central America during the Banana Wars. They existed for less than 50 years and most USMC marines today know nothing about them.
 
Troop types tend to transform, as doctrine is driven by technological developments.

Nowadays, grenadiers no longer are primarily hand bomb chuckers.

If tiltrotors become powerful and reliable enough to stage from continental United States to the Near and/or Far East, you'd need amphibious ships more to preplace heavy equipment near likely engagement areas.

In the Traveller context, each jump requires a week, plus refuelling, so you need to deploy forwards, conveniently on troop transports.
 
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