Tobias
Banded Mongoose
I do not, indeed. Because there is nothing to indicate that a shield works any other way than "up (and noticeable" or "not up".
Zhodani Naval Doctrine
- Thread starter ottarrus
- Start date
I do not, indeed. Because there is nothing to indicate that a shield works any other way than "up (and noticeable" or "not up".
If you want the Zhodani view of the all seeing psionic eye to be true, that's fine.
But it isn't supported by the rules on how psionics work. ESPECIALLY in Mongoose, but even in Classic Traveller. There just aren't that many psionics. Only nobles and intendants are psionic. They are a small minority of the population. Of those psionics, only some of them are actually telepaths. All the telepathic Intendants are strong enough to do mind reading, but not all the nobles are.
And telepathy just isn't that powerful even in CT. In Mongoose, it is less reliable because you need quite high skill results to get specific results. They are Deanna Troi and Spock level mental powers. Handy, but requires effort to get useful results. Telempathy is a much easier and less stressful power and far more likely to be the sort of screening going on if anything is done "routinely". "oh, he's sad/stressed/upset/whatever. Let's find out why."
Read Thoughts only reads active thoughts. So you can't just randomly wonder what some dude is thinking and find out he's a spy unless they are actively thinking about spying at that moment. So this means it would be a manager-employee conference. The telepath would have to ask leading questions for a couple minutes to see if they get a dodgy response.
Psi testing is far more likely to be like random drug testing is. You get screened at specific times and then once in a great while you get picked to for it again. Zhodani society is far more likely to be the way it is because of telepathic assisted advances in social psychology and behavioral science than because everyone's getting their surface thoughts read once in a while.
You can ramp up the effectiveness and ubiquity of telepathy compared to the rules, but I think that makes for a worse game and less value in the Zhos. YMMV
But it isn't supported by the rules on how psionics work. ESPECIALLY in Mongoose, but even in Classic Traveller. There just aren't that many psionics. Only nobles and intendants are psionic. They are a small minority of the population. Of those psionics, only some of them are actually telepaths. All the telepathic Intendants are strong enough to do mind reading, but not all the nobles are.
And telepathy just isn't that powerful even in CT. In Mongoose, it is less reliable because you need quite high skill results to get specific results. They are Deanna Troi and Spock level mental powers. Handy, but requires effort to get useful results. Telempathy is a much easier and less stressful power and far more likely to be the sort of screening going on if anything is done "routinely". "oh, he's sad/stressed/upset/whatever. Let's find out why."
Read Thoughts only reads active thoughts. So you can't just randomly wonder what some dude is thinking and find out he's a spy unless they are actively thinking about spying at that moment. So this means it would be a manager-employee conference. The telepath would have to ask leading questions for a couple minutes to see if they get a dodgy response.
Psi testing is far more likely to be like random drug testing is. You get screened at specific times and then once in a great while you get picked to for it again. Zhodani society is far more likely to be the way it is because of telepathic assisted advances in social psychology and behavioral science than because everyone's getting their surface thoughts read once in a while.
You can ramp up the effectiveness and ubiquity of telepathy compared to the rules, but I think that makes for a worse game and less value in the Zhos. YMMV
IMHO, that is a fundamentally un Zhodani way of doing things. That is what the Imperium says the Zhodani are like: a culture of fear, suspicion, and oppression. If you are regularly inviting your employees in for security screenings or otherwise asking them leading questions, you are creating a suspicious workplace.
The Zhodani claim they are monitoring mental health, keeping people happy, and developing a culture where deceit and suspicion are not necessary or wanted.
Are there going to be counter intelligence agents? Yes. But this universal "are you a bad person" scanning does not fit with their ideology. If that is the way it is, the Imperium's right. And maybe that's how some folks want to play their games. It is not how I want my Zhos to be.
The Zhodani claim they are monitoring mental health, keeping people happy, and developing a culture where deceit and suspicion are not necessary or wanted.
Are there going to be counter intelligence agents? Yes. But this universal "are you a bad person" scanning does not fit with their ideology. If that is the way it is, the Imperium's right. And maybe that's how some folks want to play their games. It is not how I want my Zhos to be.
ottarrus
Emperor Mongoose
There is a fine line between 'you are a bad person' and responsible due diligence, one that I think the Zho's walk very well given their superior knowledge of psychology.
Scanning people who have access to intelligence information is just good practice and while Zhodani society doesn't like that level of suspicion, the Nobles involved with secrets and intelligence acknowledge that it's necessary. All employees of Tavrchedle' Internal Security [which I perceive to be a separate branch from the workaday mental health care workers on the street] and the Tozjabr are told up front that 'This job will require surveillance and screening, and you should know that 'x' percent of agents end up needing intensive counseling [aka 'reeducation'] at some point in their careers. Because of these risks the job pays very well, but that we feel that you should make an informed decision.' The nature of Zhodani society allows this level of honesty but, as many of us know, you can be told all about all kinds of ugly consequences and still volunteer to do the stupidest stuff...
And, of course, both agencies are on guard for their worst nightmare, the well-meaning Noble or Intendant who knows some very ugly secrets and has become lost in the 'forest of mirrors' but defects to the Imperium for fear of being reeducated.
Sure, no one says they are lax. They will certainly have better security than most places. It even mentions that military police telepaths are specifically expecting problematic situations and a harsher application of their powers. I'm just objecting to the idea that they are 'what if a totalitarian state had unlimited psi'. Because I don't think they are a totalitarian state with that kind of paranoid security and I don't believe Traveller's mechanics support particularly strong telepathy.
And if you are playing a game in which the Zhodani figure significantly, really thinking about how weak Traveller telepathy is matters. Which means making a lot of IMTU decisions, because Traveller spends the smallest possible amount of effort on psionics.
And if you are playing a game in which the Zhodani figure significantly, really thinking about how weak Traveller telepathy is matters. Which means making a lot of IMTU decisions, because Traveller spends the smallest possible amount of effort on psionics
.Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
If you're in an intelligence service, you will get a routine interrogation.
Likely, each prole will get an annual mental check up by his general practitioner.
Likely, each prole will get an annual mental check up by his general practitioner.
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
Imperial propaganda - the Thought Police constantly probe the minds of proles.
A read of the original psionics rules and the alien module - Zhodani proles are ambitious, they want to improve their own lives and the lives of their children. Zhodani society is built on trust and honesty, and also educating the the limit. If you are a prole with Soc 9 your education can rise to 9. The Thought Police can only routinely scan using telempathy which will allow the detection of people who are "out of balance" and then read surface thoughts can be used for further analysis.
Probe is likely unnecessary, since the psychological treatment is usually more than enough to solve the issue.
I'm actually suprised that the Zhodani have not instituted a social caste below that of intendent. proles with a Psi rating of 4+ in telepathy would make useful nurses, awareness of 5 allows for enhanced physical stats, clairvoyance 5, teleport 5 naked or 7 clothed.
Psi 4+
Psi 5+
Psi 7+
Psi 9+ intendent
A read of the original psionics rules and the alien module - Zhodani proles are ambitious, they want to improve their own lives and the lives of their children. Zhodani society is built on trust and honesty, and also educating the the limit. If you are a prole with Soc 9 your education can rise to 9. The Thought Police can only routinely scan using telempathy which will allow the detection of people who are "out of balance" and then read surface thoughts can be used for further analysis.
Probe is likely unnecessary, since the psychological treatment is usually more than enough to solve the issue.
I'm actually suprised that the Zhodani have not instituted a social caste below that of intendent. proles with a Psi rating of 4+ in telepathy would make useful nurses, awareness of 5 allows for enhanced physical stats, clairvoyance 5, teleport 5 naked or 7 clothed.
Psi 4+
Psi 5+
Psi 7+
Psi 9+ intendent
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Registered Nurse - licensed to pill.
Tobias
Banded Mongoose
About 20% of the population are nobles or intendants. In government agencies, probably more. Even if only a small fraction of them works for the Thought Police, that's sufficient to check on everyone regularly (every few weeks by conservative estimate.)
You don't need any of that. You ask directly and openly, while making clear that you are from the Thought Police: "We are now checking if you're an infiltrator or spy. Are you?", while reading their thoughts. (Or having another person read them.)
I consider it impossible that sensitive government agencies would not routinely perform this for every Prole they employ even in the lowliest of positions. Heck, even intendants and nobles, who normally have a right to mental privacy, would be expected to waive that for such security checks.
And there is nothing un-Zhodani about it. It's just honest. Invading someone's mind and checking if he is a spy feels oppressive to us because of our notions of personhood and morality. It does not to the Zhodani proles. Zhodani thought does not have the same ideas of guilt, shame, punishment and crime that we do. A Prole would feel no more insulted or opressed by having their minds read than an Imperial would by having their papers checked at the gate.
It can rise to 15. The limitation in the CT rules is for initial characteristic generation.
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20% of the population are nobles or Intendants. Some of those are telepaths. And some of those telepaths are not capable of effectively mind reading, because nothing guarantees a Noble has a decent PSI strength or sufficient skill to reliably use the more complicated techniques.
But, as I mentioned before, Traveller has done the barest of minimums on defining psionics and only slightly more than that on how it actually works in the Consulate, so you can envision it however you want, really.
My point is that specifically looking for the extremely rare spy with this level of full court press is a pretty extreme level of paranoia that I don't think suits the Zhodani mindset. Perhaps you can practice that level of paranoid suspicion without infecting others, but I personally find it rather unlikely. Not to mention, if you are dedicating that much of your limited telepathic resources to catching spies, they aren't doing a lot else.
But, as I mentioned before, Traveller has done the barest of minimums on defining psionics and only slightly more than that on how it actually works in the Consulate, so you can envision it however you want, really.
My point is that specifically looking for the extremely rare spy with this level of full court press is a pretty extreme level of paranoia that I don't think suits the Zhodani mindset. Perhaps you can practice that level of paranoid suspicion without infecting others, but I personally find it rather unlikely. Not to mention, if you are dedicating that much of your limited telepathic resources to catching spies, they aren't doing a lot else.
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ottarrus
Emperor Mongoose
Since the psionics rules essentially say that you can have Telepathy if you want it, you can be sure that in every group of 5 trained Zhodani psions at least three of them will have the talent... in addition to any others they may have.
As for the full KGB paranoia treatment, I want to remind everyone that the Zhodani fear the Imperium as much as the Imperium fears them... Those Zhodani trained in deception are fully aware that the Imperials are orders of magnitude better at it than they are, just as the Imperium fears Zhodani psionics. And remember that there's only so much ability at deception and dissimulation that a Zhodani, ANY Zhodani, can get away with before their mental health is compromised and they get reeducated. This means that intelligence executives... the people ultimately responsible for acting on the intelligence gathered... are only so skilled at the craft. Their Imperial counterparts are more skilled at it but, because the Imperial intelligence services are part of the military services, they have a harder time getting their superiors to take heed of the warnings.
Consider: there are several service paths that almost prevent a serving officer from getting those choice commands that lead to flag rank. Logistics, civil affairs, technical engineering, and intelligence are NOT the career pathways to become a Sector Admiral. There are a lot of people in all those fields who have 'been judged and found wanting' insofar as command is concerned. For example, do you know what the US Air Force calls the missile combat crews [that is to say, the guys with the keys to the nuclear safes]? 'Washouts', that's what. Despite decades of work by USAF personnel and generals, the missile watch officers are guys who'd rather be flying. And in the Chair-Force, you're either a pilot or a third class citizen hoping to be promoted to second class citizen some day if you work ever so hard at it. To put point on it, there has NEVER been a Chief of Staff USAF that wasn't a pilot. In the same vein, skilled Army J-2's don't get command of divisions and, in Traveller, able Naval Intelligence specialists don't get command of Tigresses. Most of these officers top out at Colonel /Captain and are retired.
And it is these 'washouts', each of whom knows that they're looking at Life After The Uniform a lot sooner than their cruiser commanding Academy classmates, who have to look at the raw intelligence, come to conclusions, and get the Admiralty to understand the intel, what it means, and what can be done about it.
My entire point in this Wall of Text is that BOTH the Imperial and Consulate leadership have biases that can and do cripple their intelligence operations. The trick is to find the chink in the armor, but each society puts obstacles in the way that job a lot harder than it has to be.
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Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
It does occur to me, that the Zhodani Consulate is exemplar of Orwellian society.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Totalitarianism is a political system and a form of government that prohibits opposition political parties, disregards and outlaws the political claims of individual and group opposition to the state, and controls the public sphere and the private sphere of society. In the field of political science, totalitarianism is the extreme form of authoritarianism, wherein all socio-political power is held by a dictator, who also controls the national politics and the peoples of the nation with continual propaganda campaigns that are broadcast by state-controlled and by friendly private mass communications media.[1]
The totalitarian government uses ideology to control most aspects of human life, such as the political economy of the country, the system of education, the arts, the sciences, and the private-life morality of the citizens.[2] In the exercise of socio-political power, the difference between a totalitarian régime of government and an authoritarian régime of government is one of degree; whereas totalitarianism features a charismatic dictator and a fixed worldview, authoritarianism only features a dictator who holds power for the sake of holding power, and is supported, either jointly or individually, by a military junta and by the socio-economic elites who are the ruling class of the country.[3]
How far that extends in the Consulate, I wouldn't know.
In exercising the power of government upon a society, the application of an official dominant ideology differentiates the worldview of the totalitarian régime from the worldview of the authoritarian régime, which is "only concerned with political power, and, as long as [government power] is not contested, [the authoritarian government] gives society a certain degree of liberty."[3] Having no ideology to propagate, the politically secular authoritarian government "does not attempt to change the world and human nature",[3] whereas the "totalitarian government seeks to completely control the thoughts and actions of its citizens",[2] by way of an official "totalist ideology, a [political] party reinforced by a secret police, and monopolistic control of industrial mass society."[3]
It's been a very long time since I read the book, but the ending is haunting.
In the dystopian novel Nineteen Eighty-Four (1949), by George Orwell, the Thought Police (Thinkpol in Newspeak) are the secret police of the superstate of Oceania, who discover and punish thoughtcrime (personal and political thoughts unapproved by Ingsoc's régime). Using criminal psychology and omnipresent surveillance (via informers, telescreens, cameras, and microphones) the Thinkpol monitor the citizens of Oceania and arrest all those who have committed thoughtcrime in challenge to the status quo authority of the Party and of the régime of Big Brother.[1]
The totalitarian government uses ideology to control most aspects of human life, such as the political economy of the country, the system of education, the arts, the sciences, and the private-life morality of the citizens.[2] In the exercise of socio-political power, the difference between a totalitarian régime of government and an authoritarian régime of government is one of degree; whereas totalitarianism features a charismatic dictator and a fixed worldview, authoritarianism only features a dictator who holds power for the sake of holding power, and is supported, either jointly or individually, by a military junta and by the socio-economic elites who are the ruling class of the country.[3]
How far that extends in the Consulate, I wouldn't know.
In exercising the power of government upon a society, the application of an official dominant ideology differentiates the worldview of the totalitarian régime from the worldview of the authoritarian régime, which is "only concerned with political power, and, as long as [government power] is not contested, [the authoritarian government] gives society a certain degree of liberty."[3] Having no ideology to propagate, the politically secular authoritarian government "does not attempt to change the world and human nature",[3] whereas the "totalitarian government seeks to completely control the thoughts and actions of its citizens",[2] by way of an official "totalist ideology, a [political] party reinforced by a secret police, and monopolistic control of industrial mass society."[3]
It's been a very long time since I read the book, but the ending is haunting.
In the dystopian novel Nineteen Eighty-Four (1949), by George Orwell, the Thought Police (Thinkpol in Newspeak) are the secret police of the superstate of Oceania, who discover and punish thoughtcrime (personal and political thoughts unapproved by Ingsoc's régime). Using criminal psychology and omnipresent surveillance (via informers, telescreens, cameras, and microphones) the Thinkpol monitor the citizens of Oceania and arrest all those who have committed thoughtcrime in challenge to the status quo authority of the Party and of the régime of Big Brother.[1]
Tobias
Banded Mongoose
Ironically, the Consulate is among the more pluralistic governments in the OTU. Definitely, among the three major human powers, it is the least tyrannical. The Imperium is a hereditary monarchy. The Solomani Confederation is a single party oligarchy. The Zhodani Consulate is a limited-franchise democracy.
There is also, of course, the fact that in "1984", the Party ensured its power over people by making them suffer, which is the exact opposite of what the Zhodani do. If you want to draw a parallel to a novel, "Brave New World" is the more apt comparison by very, very far.
Some people may read the term "thought police" and then construct their whole idea of the Zhodani around this, without bothering to read further, and dismissing every well-founded correction because they've made up their minds. It's a common pattern.
There is also, of course, the fact that in "1984", the Party ensured its power over people by making them suffer, which is the exact opposite of what the Zhodani do. If you want to draw a parallel to a novel, "Brave New World" is the more apt comparison by very, very far.
Some people may read the term "thought police" and then construct their whole idea of the Zhodani around this, without bothering to read further, and dismissing every well-founded correction because they've made up their minds. It's a common pattern.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Brave New World is panem et circenses.
Basically, distraction.
The problem with utilizing torture and scarcity as means of suppression, is that at some point, most societies revolt.
Basically, distraction.
The problem with utilizing torture and scarcity as means of suppression, is that at some point, most societies revolt.
Tobias
Banded Mongoose
... has what to do with the Zhodani?
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Humans tend to try out every type of governance, so I'm pretty sure the Zhodani went through that phase, as well.
What is the goal of (political) power?
It's to keep it.
Which pretty much defines every aristocracy.
The Consulate just figured out, for their circumstances, the most efficient and effective method to maintain their social order.
What is the goal of (political) power?
It's to keep it.
Which pretty much defines every aristocracy.
The Consulate just figured out, for their circumstances, the most efficient and effective method to maintain their social order.
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
I personally don't care who has the political power, as long as it is used to help your fellow sophonts. I can be in charge, or I can be the one following orders. It matters not to Me, but I am weird. I do agree that most of the population is not like Me. Actually, I prefer not to be in charge. Being in charge and responsible for so many is stressful, and I don't enjoy being stressed out.
