Zhodani Naval Doctrine

[ottarrus]

Imperial fleets have a default plotting factor of 5, seven of the fourteen admirals have a plotting factor of 4.

And we're back to 'the wargames do not reflect upon the canon of Charted Space, they are simulations only'.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Which makes it even worse. The reality of the setting is the Imperial fleets only know where the Zhodani are if a ship manages to jump out of the current system the Zhodani are in. You have no idea how long they are going to stay in that system, or which system they are going to jump to.

So if I jump my artifact hunting fleet as quickly as possible to my target world, while sending a few diversionary raiders elsewhere how do you know which world to mass a defence fleet?

 

[ottarrus]

To quote an old sergeant major of mine [who admittedly was highly annoyed with me at the time]
"That why we eff'ing TRAIN, you idiot!"

By now everybody knows all the 'navigation' stuff... which gas giants in every system are optimal for refueling, which suns are prone to solar flares, which systems have active outer system settlements [belters and the like], etc. But there's too many systems to cover, much less gas giants, and still keep your fleets gathered in a strike posture instead of spread out all over the sector playing step and fetch it for the sector nobility.
But that is EXACTLY what the Spinward Marches Fleet is doing on the Zho D-Day. Two-thirds of the fleet is following Santanocheev's orders and one quarter are following Norris' [which, btw, is specifically forbidden by regulations]. The remnants are scattered showing the flag or polishing some noble's reputation in penny packets.
If you look at Opening Moves, all Zho activity in the Five Sisters /Dist. 268 region is a feint, trying to draw IN battle squadrons off the main lines of advance. The book gives a detailed and realistic timeline of the Zhodani moves to their start lines. The Zho fleet refueling at Ucella [only J-2 from it's target of Iderati] was a smart move. If their planned assault goes poorly, they can still Jump out and refuel at Ucella or in deep space with tanker support.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Train all you like, I don't think the comm lag and lack of god's eye view is appreciated.

If the Ancient artifact to solve the existential threat of the wave is revealed to be the real objective than this version of the FFW goes from contrived to ridiculous.

 

[Geir]

If the Ancient artifact to solve the existential threat of the wave is revealed to be the real objective than this version of the FFW goes from contrived to ridiculous.

Actually I think it makes it less contrived. I mean, back in '81 when we were all expecting the Soviets to come crashing through the Fulda Gap any day now, it seemed less contrived (at least to a 16-year-old) but now, if not for an actual objective why bother. Wars are expensive nasty things that can go seriously sideways at the best of times

(Though, I suspect I'm more McClellan than Grant - even though I try to fight the tendency - I just don't like to shred my pretty armies... and they're not even comprised of real people)

 

[Condottiere]

At that point in the time window, that Soviets feasible could have done that.

In twenty years time, they might be able to do so, again.

 

[Vormaerin]

The "why" of this war does seem somewhat lacking. Leastwise, it isn't clear to me what the Zhodani are hoping to accomplish or why they picked the current time to do so. I would prefer if there was an actual reason and plan that isn't "We want magic items". But that's just because I tend to downplay Ancients and galactic calamities themes of Charted Space.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Actually I think it makes it less contrived. I mean, back in '81 when we were all expecting the Soviets to come crashing through the Fulda Gap any day now, it seemed less contrived (at least to a 16-year-old) but now, if not for an actual objective why bother. Wars are expensive nasty things that can go seriously sideways at the best of times

(Though, I suspect I'm more McClellan than Grant - even though I try to fight the tendency - I just don't like to shred my pretty armies... and they're not even comprised of real people)

I reiterate my earlier analysis, the Zhodani would invade the target world with such a force the Imperium could not resist, or they would use diplomatic means, or they would use special forces. They would not launch an invasion as described by the original FFW or by this retconned version.

 

[Micky]

yeah... as a newbie to Traveller but not to RPG and their various settings and metaplot fails.. I was sort of curious about this 5FW, heading heard and read so much of it, and so I got the book but not without some trepidation. Wisely it seems..

I was VERY unwhelmed. Not by the writing or quality of the book obviously.. but the whole premise, and plot of the event itself.

But that is EXACTLY what the Spinward Marches Fleet is doing on the Zho D-Day. Two-thirds of the fleet is following Santanocheev's orders and one quarter are following Norris' [which, btw, is specifically forbidden by regulations]. The remnants are scattered showing the flag or polishing some noble's reputation in penny packets.

yeah.. it got to the point where my eyes were rolling in my head by about the 40th or 50th mention of that Norris guy in the book. I was surprised to not see a portrait of him wearing a cape with a big S on it. He (any noble) had zero direct input into any part of the Naval chain of command... nobles can influence commanders for sure, but the chain the command excludes them for good reasons. He should have had zero say as to the progression of any battles or war (or '5th Border Skirmish' more like). If the Zho's couldn't roll over the Imperial frontier, defended by fraction of their forces. The Zho's should have never bothered attacking lol.

I see a lot of parallels to him, that region, and how D&D took 'Saint' Stephen Karameikos and his tosspot little country and blew them FAR out of big picture importance when the setting expanded.. mainly out of nostalgia I suppose as those setting were where most new players started playing. Taking the assumption the Zhodani knew generally what forces the Imperium had within several months time, if they couldn't have brought overwhelming force to overrun the Spinward Marches and Deneb... they should have never attacked.. unless one hand waves them as a bunch of idiots. Strategically and tactically...

considering the size of their empire.. and the forces they could have brought to bear...they could have really challenge the whole of the Imperium much less a mere fraction of it and the naval forces of the Imperium. They should have made this more of a 'war' than the 5FW was presented, back then when it first got drawn up... and so far as it has by Mongoose.


now what happens beyond the 5FW Mongoose book? .. as Mongoose has said events can change? We shall see...

 

[ottarrus]

Well, canonically, Norris ends up being the hero of 5th FW. That may or may not change with Mongoose's rendition.
In canon, Norris deposes Santanocheev [who really is an idiot anyway] and the Imperial Navy defeats the Zhodani in two key theaters, Efate and Rhylenor. The War ends with an Imperial victory inasmuch as the Imperium gains a few worlds and secures its borders. The key victory is the destruction in detail of much of the Zhodani, Sword Worlds and Vargr 40th Squadron fleets. And the fangs of the Sword Worlds yanked out with extreme prejudice as well, thereby securing the Darrian Confederation's frontiers as well.
I should note that Norris is never portrayed as a fleet commander. He is strictly a political figure, but was trained as a Naval Intelligence analyst. His role was twofold: keeping the sector nobility off the backs of working admirals and he assisted with operational planning. He never took the field himself, and he didn't interfere with the actual command workings of the Navy.
But that doesn't mean that some of the means to his ends weren't on the howling screaming edge of what is allowable for a noble to do. If his gambit had failed, he would have been made the scapegoat for the whole episode.
But that is the kind of emergency risk taking that the Emperor wants his nobles to do... identify what's best for the Imperium as a whole, marshal the assets to do the job, and provide leadership to get the job done.

 

[Micky]

Well, canonically, Norris ends up being the hero of 5th FW. That may or may not change with Mongoose's rendition.
In canon, Norris deposes Santanocheev [who really is an idiot anyway] and the Imperial Navy defeats the Zhodani in two key theaters, Efate and Rhylenor. The War ends with an Imperial victory inasmuch as the Imperium gains a few worlds and secures its borders. The key victory is the destruction in detail of much of the Zhodani, Sword Worlds and Vargr 40th Squadron fleets. And the fangs of the Sword Worlds yanked out with extreme prejudice as well, thereby securing the Darrian Confederation's frontiers as well.
I should note that Norris is never portrayed as a fleet commander. He is strictly a political figure, but was trained as a Naval Intelligence analyst. His role was twofold: keeping the sector nobility off the backs of working admirals and he assisted with operational planning. He never took the field himself, and he didn't interfere with the actual command workings of the Navy.
But that doesn't mean that some of the means to his ends weren't on the howling screaming edge of what is allowable for a noble to do. If his gambit had failed, he would have been made the scapegoat for the whole episode.
But that is the kind of emergency risk taking that the Emperor wants his nobles to do... identify what's best for the Imperium as a whole, marshal the assets to do the job, and provide leadership to get the job done.

sure.. if the Zhodani had overrun large parts of the Spinward Marches, taken important worlds, from the get go.. you could have seen 'emergency' measures taken place like ol' Chuck getting the warrant to take charge, kick some asses, and set things right in the world. But that never really happened did it? Several years in and the Zhodani were still spinning their wheels. At some places still at border worlds? Where was the real threat or danger that would explain such extraordinary measures and bypassing or tossing out the established chain of command. That is sort of what made me go.. huh???

edit... funny... the 5FW is the equivalent of the Soviets holding and never losing it's great frontier fortress, Brest-Litovsk, and holding the Germans at the Stalin line (old Soviet border) elsewhere... yet Stalin himself replacing (executing haha) all his commanders for actually doing their job.

Absorbing the first blow well short of important vital objectives... and stopping the invader ... hell.. that poor Fleet Admiral Super Chuck replaced actually did his job. Per Imperium doctrine... allowing the time for the big heavy reserves to come up from Vland and the core sectors and push out the Zhodani.

 

[Geir]

But that is the kind of emergency risk taking that the Emperor wants his nobles to do... identify what's best for the Imperium as a whole, marshal the assets to do the job, and provide leadership to get the job done.

Unless it involves assassination....

 

[collins355]

My reading of SMC says the Zhodani committed to the twin sieges of Efate and Jewell first so as to tie down Imperial forces, and keep the focus on Regina subsector ("the major purpose was the diversion of the Imperial fleet strength coreward, toward the naturally vulnerable Regina subsector and away from the Abyss").
Then, and only then, they launched their real thrust in the Abyss Campaign in 1109, heading for Rhylanor with a reinforced 40th Fleet ("the plan could spell the fall of Rhylanor and the capitulation of the Imperium; the Zhodani depended on the plan to win the war for them").
According to canon, the seizure of power by Norris resulted in a recognition of the Zhodani key axis, something supposedly Sector Admiral Santanocheev had not seen (he was fixated on Efate).

 

[Sigtrygg]

Which is fine if the Zhodani war aim was to force the Imperium to concede and stop their advancement into the Marches, which was the war aim for every frontier war, but if there is a super secret war aim to find an artifact on Rhylanor to deal with the existential threat of the wave then this strategy makes no sense. They would not wait for two years and allow the Imperium to call up their reinforcements.

 

[Condottiere]

Could be layered.

There might actually be a plan that gets the Imperium to commit to the Spinward Marches, and then the Vargr overrun Corridor.

Time required both for that commitment, and to get the Vargr hordes in place.

 

[collins355]

Which is fine if the Zhodani war aim was to force the Imperium to concede and stop their advancement into the Marches, which was the war aim for every frontier war, but if there is a super secret war aim to find an artifact on Rhylanor to deal with the existential threat of the wave then this strategy makes no sense. They would not wait for two years and allow the Imperium to call up their reinforcements.

For sure. When I play as the Outworld Coalition in 5FW boardgame I definitely do not follow the canon strategy (then again, the victory conditions in the boardgame are not to capture a single system containing a McGuffin to stop the Empress Wave!)

 

[Tobias]

Which is fine if the Zhodani war aim was to force the Imperium to concede and stop their advancement into the Marches, which was the war aim for every frontier war, but if there is a super secret war aim to find an artifact on Rhylanor to deal with the existential threat of the wave then this strategy makes no sense.

The entire war does not make sense with that premise. The premise also does not make sense. And the war was written before the alleged premise, which also makes no sense.

 

[Iracundus]

What about if the war is meant to be a part of a psychohistory manipulation? Of course I'm just pulling something out of the air.

BTW, has it been revealed yet how this FFW outcome could be different and how this would occur IRL? Currently aren't we still riding the rails?

 

[Tobias]

The Zhodani's long-term purpose, as laid out in the MT Rebellion sourcebook, was to disrupt and deter Imperial expansionism in the long term. I wouldn't call it psychohistory manipulation, but the intent to influence the Imperial mindset was clearly there.

 

[Tobias]

Train all you like, I don't think the comm lag and lack of god's eye view is appreciated.

If the Ancient artifact to solve the existential threat of the wave is revealed to be the real objective than this version of the FFW goes from contrived to ridiculous.

I agree, but that said: If the end result is going to be that they get rid of the Empress Wave nonsense or at least push it into the background, it's fine.