Tobias
Banded Mongoose
Rather at odds with the MgT notion that all Proles are underlings without any responsibility.
TBT, in such a scenario, you'd basically need your agents to be psionic and trained to pose as nobles or intendants.
Zhodani Naval Doctrine
- Thread starter ottarrus
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TBT, in such a scenario, you'd basically need your agents to be psionic and trained to pose as nobles or intendants.
ottarrus
Emperor Mongoose
Zhodani proles do have responsibilities but the don't set policy, they are not the leadership of the Consulate. Proles own and operate businesses, they hold responsible positions all over the place. They crew small starships, especially within Consular borders, they're the NCOs of the Consular military.
There are undoubtedly workers in the intelligence services, clerks, low-level analysts, etc. but their jobs don't involved drawing conclusions from the intel they process. Furthermore, they're probably housed in government enclaves with a higher Tavrchedle' presence than average. This only makes sense, right?
So yeah, if Imperials want to penetrate the Zhodani Tozjabr, they're probably gonna have to be psionic and trained to impersonate an Intendant. What's more, they're gonna need a bulletproof legend in order to get the job to begin with.
And here's a wrinkle nobody talks about:
Your spy gets caught and doesn't have time to initiate a duress cut [a signal essentially saying 'I've been burned, do not trust any further contact']. The Tavrchede' re-educates him and sends him back home -- now as Zhodani mole.
Tobias
Banded Mongoose
The MgT vibe (and for the military and government services, the almost explicit statement) is that a Prole can never hold a position of authority over an Intendant or Noble in any situation. [NOTE: That this is quite different from how it was in the CT Alien module.]
So the scenario where an Imperial spy, under the cover of a Prole, tells off a Tavrchedl' agent about the Prole's alleged security clearance - I don't see it. I don't even see him asking. If there's the slightest reason to check on potentially sensitive or even just unusual activity by a Prole, the agent is just going to nicely ask them what they're doing while quickly reading their mind as a matter of course.
ottarrus
Emperor Mongoose
Let me be clearer...
In MgT, Proles NEVER have authority over Intendents or Nobles. Not only is a social gaffe, but they simply don't have the training. Zho Proles' EDU is limited by the Soc score.
In the Intelligence business, they're clerks, low-level analysts [photo interpreters for example, or economic analysts], and so forth. They don't take action on intelligence, they look for indicators and incongruities and then turn the product over to an Intendent for confirmation, decisions, and action. An Imperial agent posing as a Prole in the Tozjabr would spend a lot of time looking at crop reports from Regina or analyzing the Naasirka stocks activity for triggers to kick his hunch upstairs.
And I think that Proles in sensitive government work are all housed in neighborhoods together, neighborhoods with a larger Tavrchedle' presence. And if there is any reason whatsoever a Prole will be probed by a telepath in the office and, if necessary, a professional from the Tavrchedle' is called in.
Tobias
Banded Mongoose
Which translates into: There is no chance in hell a non-psionic Imperial posing as a Prole is not found out in the short term.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
What you want is to infiltrate a handler, who then recruits agents through ideology, religion, ego, greed, love, coercion, or blackmail.
Don't have to be just proles.
Don't have to be just proles.
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
The MgT take on the Zhodani is copied across from GT (literally cut n paste in some sections), where the authors failed to read the original CT AM correctly or thoroughly enough.
"Ambition: The advanced educational tools available to the Zhodani make it possible for nearly all members of society to
see their own potential and to see the paths they can take toward realizing it. Ambition exists in varying degrees; some individuals might pursue physical conditioning, while others can form long-range plans for the advancement of their careers. The individual ambition differs for each person, but ambition is more commonly accepted as part of Zhodani society.
Respect: Respect for social superiors is a natural part of Zhodani society. It is ingrained into everyone in the schools and the community. Required respect can remain for a while, but for true respect to exist, the Nobles must earn it.
Conformity: Zhodani are conformists. The relatively narrow band of activities which all members of society understand and approve of is known to everyone, and everyone strives to act within that range
A newly generated Zhodani character must choose one of six services (Navy, Guards, Army, Merchants, Government, or
Other) and attempt to enlist. Intendents and Nobles may not enlist in the Proles; Proles may enlist in any service. Only one enlistment attempt is permitted per character.
Position: Each service has a position number; in order to be commissioned as a military officer or appointed to a post of
authority within a career, the character must throw the stated number or greater. Die modifiers may apply to the throw. If the position is achieved, the character receives rank 0 in the service.
A character may attempt to acquire a position once per term of service until successful; a draftee cannot attempt position
in the first term of service.
Nobles and lntendants automatically receive position in their first term of service, with the exception of draftees: drafted
Nobles and lntendants automatically receive position in their second term of service.
The Table of Ranks shows the ranks available. Achieving position awards rank 0. Promotions increase rank. Within the Navy and the Army, Nobles and lntendants have a different rank title at rank 0 than do Proles. Above rank 0, ranks are identical.
Any character may be promoted to the highest available ranks regardless of Social Standing, except: Proles and Intendants in Government may not be promoted above rank 3."
In CT Zhodani a prole could end up as an Army General or a navy Admiral, the Zhodani, such a prole would be a very capable commander.
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
This is a mistake made by GT authors copied whole cloth by the MgT authors - it should be corrected.
They can be Generals and Admirals in The Third Imperium setting as described by CT.
That's your biased supposition swayed by Imperial propaganda, do you have any canonoical evidence for it?
Tobias
Banded Mongoose
"Some sections" is a major understatement. AFAICS all the actual information on Zhodani society is copy-pasted from GTAR1.
I found that out only much later (had never bothered to check the wording). Maybe that was for the best. I butted heads a bit in this forum with Don McKinney over other parts of the book, which I now regret.
By the way, since no one could answer this when I asked it years ago or when I re-asked it on other channels: Dou you know if this text (and/or the information) remains the same in MgT2's "Aliens of Charted Space"?
I only have the original MgT1 Zho book and was wondering if getting the new work would add any value if one already owns that (my assumption being: no, it would not, beyond the obvious improvement in presentation).
Precisely. Although it must be said: It was bloody hard for a prole to rise through the ranks like that. Like you would basically expect in a society that front-loads its hereditary nobles (and noble-aspirants) to be leaders.
If you wanted to reconcile the two schools of thought, I would probably add something like that to the Mongoose way of doing things:
"Occasionally, a prole serving in a military or government career may show potential for the type of leadership position typically reserved for intendants and nobles. In such cases, after careful examination and preparation by the responsible Tavrchedl' department, the prole may be promoted to officer or equivalent rank. Such proles are considered [put Zhodani word here] or 'intendants on merit'; their social standing is raised to 9[?] if lower. They have the same rights and responsibilities as other Intendants, with two exceptions: Lacking psionic abilities, they can never be elevated to noble status; and their status is not inherited by their children."
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ottarrus
Emperor Mongoose
Well, the Fifth Frontier War book notes that there is an anti-Tavrchedle' activist group within the Consulate that has techniques to avoid notice by random Tavrchedle' patrols. THAT smacks of Imperial influence to me. I can accept that there may be Imperial agents assisting that movement and providing them with training.
As MM noted in Agent of the Imperium, the Zhodani have to work pretty hard to get to even the average level of deceptive ability of an Imperial from a High Pop world. When it comes to the gathering of intelligence, the only thing that keeps the Zhos even in the game is their telepathic and clairvoyant capabilities. Without those, the Imperial intelligence services would have the Consulate penetrated to a fare-thee-well.
[I'll pause here for the expected snickering jokes...]
And the big hangup with both telepathy and clairvoyance is localizing your investigation.... whose thoughts to read and where or when to look with one's precognitive powers.
This means the Zhodani have to do many of the same things the Imperials have to do... especially the 'get a reliable agent on the inside' task.
A non-psionic Imperial agent can easily get into Zhodani society, even into somewhat sensitive positions. After all, every Prole isn't examined every day. An agent working in a shipyard can act as a fleet-watcher, sending intell on what's in port and unusual fleet or cargo movements, for just one example. Imagine the intel an 'Imperial Prole' can gather just by working in ship's chandlery... 'Damn, is EVERY transport in the Iadr Nsoble Fleet in port all at once? We've been working double shifts filling holds for months, and that's never happened before!'
But yes, it is damned near impossible for an Imperial agent to get up to the 'responsible intelligence executive' stage in either the Tavrchedle' internal security branch or the Tozjabr foreign intelligence agency. I think we all have to accept that there simply aren't any 'Aldrich Ames'. 'Oleg Penkovsky', or 'Kim Philby' personalities at the Provincial Intelligence Officer level or above.
Tobias
Banded Mongoose
Those of everybody who works in any sensitive position, before they start working in that position. And regularly after.
Seriously, think of any spying conducted anywhere ever. And then ask yourself: Would this have happened if the government being spied upon had the ability to routinely administer a 100% scientifically accurate lie detection method and there were absolutely zero legal or moral barriers to doing so to the point where the same procedure was commonplace even in non-sensitive positions?
The lack of the ability to deceive makes Zhodani likely bad at espionage (in some ways). But their ability to literally read minds arguably makes them absolutely brilliant at combating espionage.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Split personality.
Just keep in mind that a telepathy is just not that effective in Traveller. A strong Telepath could probe 2-3 people in a day and be totally drained by doing so. Further, probes are really hard. You need a 12+ to get anything and "clarity is based on Effect". So you need above a 12 to get clear answers.
Read Surface Thoughts is a bit easier, but it still has the effect = clarity element and anyone who is a deep cover operative is going to be trained to not think about being a deep cover operative in their surface thoughts...
Zhodani psionicists are not Jean Grey or Professor X. They are not going to be mass mind probing people. That's going to be a thing that happens when there is a reason to do so because of other factors.
Tobias
Banded Mongoose
In Classic Traveller, they were absolutely going to be mass mind reading. Surface thoughts is usually enough when talking to someone because they nedd to consciously lie when answering your questions. So, during the job interview or any routine security check, you'd be done for.
Of course, with Sci-Fi "manchurian candidate" methods, you might get a sleeper past that. But then again, it is probably a lot simpler to sent in a clandestinely trained psion (the Imperium does that, unless that too changed in MgT) under cover as an intendant or noble.
Of course, with Sci-Fi "manchurian candidate" methods, you might get a sleeper past that. But then again, it is probably a lot simpler to sent in a clandestinely trained psion (the Imperium does that, unless that too changed in MgT) under cover as an intendant or noble.
ottarrus
Emperor Mongoose
You can bet that Imperial intelligence personnel work and live in psi-shielded accommodations. The trick is when they're out on the street. Wearing an obvious psi-shield helmet [ESPECIALLY in uniform] is tantamount to announcing 'Look! I'm important!' People expect captains and admirals might wear one, but a lowly lieutenant? Everybody knows that lieutenants spend their whole day fetching lho-sticks and soycaff for their betters, right?
So it seems to me that that most, if not all, intelligence officers are fitted with either a neural link or a wafer jack. After all, LOTS of officers invest in a some cyber augmentation to further their careers... And this also disguises the sub-cranial psi-shield the Imperium installed at the same time. If you REALLY wanna go 'dark Imperium' it, that psi-shield could also have a duress code for a suicide capsule.
As for the Zhodani side, the Tozjabr have done some brilliant operations in the past. They seized an entire cruiser 1078! The ISS Vermillion Stance [an obsolescent Azhanti High Lightning-class] was cruising in the Beyond sector [operated by the IISS] on a show-the-flag and tech exchange mission in the Garrone /Storm [now called Stormhaven] system when a Tozjabr strike team literally stole the entire ship with its computer banks intact. Again, it's a matter of finding the right person to...'interview'.
dunno about that. detecting deliberate lies is listed under Probe in CT, not Read Surface Thoughts and Probe is even more expensive (8+ PSI depending on range, so the only thing someone does that day, basically) in CT. Read Surface Thoughts requires that the target goes "oh no, what lie shall I tell?" A well trained agent is going to answer the questions without having to think about their lies. And even that requires 2 PSI with physical contact and more if further away for a minute or so of scanning. So you are still at doing it a handful of times per day if you don't do anything else.
It certainly raises the bar on espionage activities, but psionic activity is a thing that requires significant effort. I just don't see people casually doing it or the Zhodani dedicating enough psis (who are mostly upper class, remember) to just routinely scan large numbers of people when a Probe is a strong telepath's entire day's work and Read Thoughts is would exhaust their power after a few quick readings.
And that's with CT, which doesn't have Mongoose's punitively difficult skill rolls involved.
Tobias
Banded Mongoose
No. Probe can explicitly determine lies easily. That does not mean that other methods cannot determine lies.
If, while I'm talking to you, I ask you something and you lie, your current active thoughts are going to reflect that. An initial reading of surface thoughts needs to do nothing more than reveal even a slight hint of nervousness or secrecy to trigger a more thorough investigation, which is an automatic game over.
OTOH, I very much do see them doing that. Regularly telepathy-checking on everybody's mental well-being is the Tavrchedl's main function. Plus, the Zhodani are not idiots. They are going to check everyone in a sensitive position thoroughly. Again, ask yourself: If a country on Earth had this capability and no compunctions about using it whatsoever, how successfully do you think you could infiltrate their government and military structures?
You can decide that. That's fine. But it isn't clearly in the rules. Lots of people are capable of compartmentalizing their thoughts in ways that make lying second nature. That's a trait that makes good spies and conmen. Would that stand up to "Read Surface Thoughts"? We don't have actual telepaths to test it on. But we do know that it specifically states "only active, current thoughts". So it just comes down to whether you think people can lie without actively thinking about lying. I'm pretty sure you can train people to do that. It is certainly a pretty common trope in fiction, if nothing else.
Telepathy in Traveller is not an inconsequential activity. All these superhero tropes of just skimming folks' minds all the time are right out. Probe is so draining that even the strongest telepath in existence (PSI 15) couldn't do it twice in a day. And most telepaths can only read Surface Thoughts a few times a day, if they don't do any other psychic activity.
And you can't do any of that to someone who is a telepath unless they agree (shields). You don't think a trained telepath could possibly mislead a probe or know how to fool a thought read? Disaffected nobles are going to be the most common security issue. Or, at least, disaffection amongst the noble class is specifically called out in the CT Zhodani book as an issue. Obviously, most of them are not disaffected enough to become traitors, but that's where the spies will likely come from.
No one is saying it is easy to infiltrate the Consulate or to turn Zhodanis. But this idea of constant psychic surveillance is just not tenable unless a large portion of the Consular elites are spending all their mental energy on random psi sweeps. Or you basically say "well, the psi rules are for PCs, NPCs can be better."
Telepathy in Traveller is not an inconsequential activity. All these superhero tropes of just skimming folks' minds all the time are right out. Probe is so draining that even the strongest telepath in existence (PSI 15) couldn't do it twice in a day. And most telepaths can only read Surface Thoughts a few times a day, if they don't do any other psychic activity.
And you can't do any of that to someone who is a telepath unless they agree (shields). You don't think a trained telepath could possibly mislead a probe or know how to fool a thought read? Disaffected nobles are going to be the most common security issue. Or, at least, disaffection amongst the noble class is specifically called out in the CT Zhodani book as an issue. Obviously, most of them are not disaffected enough to become traitors, but that's where the spies will likely come from.
No one is saying it is easy to infiltrate the Consulate or to turn Zhodanis. But this idea of constant psychic surveillance is just not tenable unless a large portion of the Consular elites are spending all their mental energy on random psi sweeps. Or you basically say "well, the psi rules are for PCs, NPCs can be better."
Tobias
Banded Mongoose
No Zhodani are.
Which means they can do it how many times a month? How many jumps inside the Consulate you think your prole-spy can travel before being weeded out? 1? 2? 4?
