Who Builds Imperial Navy Ships and Where Do They Do It?

[Terry Mixon]

So, in a couple of threads, there has been some spirited discussion on who builds the ships for the Imperial Navy, where they are built, and who oversees the commercial shipyards in regular systems (SPA or the commercial entities that built them). The core of the debate seems to be centered around some contradictory information from two different Mongoose Second Edition books, which I will quote below. Could someone let us know which is right and who controls/oversees the yards in normal systems, whether they make Navy ships or not? It would be super helpful.

The Third Imperium, copyright 2021, page 13. (bolding mine)

"The Imperial Navy is a vast interstellar military force with bases spread throughout Imperial space. Most sectors have a Naval Depot, a dedicated star system where the navy’s starships are built and serviced."

The Imperial Navy, copyright 2023, page 39. (bolding mine)

"The navy does not, for the most part, build its own ships. Most are constructed by corporate or megacorporate yards and turned over to the navy with due ceremony. However, some highly classified vessels are built or modified in yards owned by the navy, usually located at a depot and ostensibly part of the repair and maintenance facility. It is rumoured that some vessels are so secret that they are constructed where even the regular navy will not come into contact with them, in concealed or disguised shipyards located in otherwise uninteresting systems."

 

[Vormaerin]

Those don't really conflict. GsbAG, General Products, and other major suppliers probably operate the shipyards at the Depots, as well as elsewhere. The Navy has its own shipyards as well, but they are primarily for super sekret squirrel projects.

If you want to go by precedent, the adventure The Kinunir specifically revolves around the construction of an Imperial Navy vessel. All of them were built at corporate shipyards on Regina. LSP, GSBAG, and 4 local companies.

 

[Terry Mixon]

Those don't really conflict. GsbAG, General Products, and other major suppliers probably operate the shipyards at the Depots, as well as elsewhere. The Navy has its own shipyards as well, but they are primarily for super sekret squirrel projects.

If you want to go by precedent, the adventure The Kinunir specifically revolves around the construction of an Imperial Navy vessel. All of them were built at corporate shipyards on Regina. LSP, GSBAG, and 4 local companies.

I would wager the shipyards at depots are solely Navy affairs, honestly. Still, you might be right. That's one of the reasons I'd love the Mongeese to pitch in and spell it out, so we know for sure what is what.

 

[Vormaerin]

It is possible that the Imperial Navy has an entire ship construction MOS that is not mentioned anywhere in any book, even in passing. And doesn't really follow any real world examples that I know of. But I am inclined to doubt it

 

[Terry Mixon]

It is possible that the Imperial Navy has an entire ship construction MOS that is not mentioned anywhere in any book, even in passing. And doesn't really follow any real world examples that I know of. But I am inclined to doubt it

There is this from The Imperial Navy, page 67. (bolding mine)

"Engineering
The drives and power systems of a starship are labour-intensive to operate. Engineering is a highly skilled branch requiring intelligent, educated enlisted personnel. Few engineering officers leave the branch to become ship commanders; most progress to larger and larger vessels, or become the senior engineering officer in a squadron. Occasionally, this means the engineering officer of a ‘senior’ vessel can outrank a new commanding officer. Engineers often progress to Staff, becoming shipyard supervisors, repair and salvage experts, or vessel designers rather than fighting captains."

That kind of implies they do. Still very vague, but a hint anyway.

 

[Limpin Legin]

There is this from The Imperial Navy, page 67. (bolding mine)

"Engineering
The drives and power systems of a starship are labour-intensive to operate. Engineering is a highly skilled branch requiring intelligent, educated enlisted personnel. Few engineering officers leave the branch to become ship commanders; most progress to larger and larger vessels, or become the senior engineering officer in a squadron. Occasionally, this means the engineering officer of a ‘senior’ vessel can outrank a new commanding officer. Engineers often progress to Staff, becoming shipyard supervisors, repair and salvage experts, or vessel designers rather than fighting captains."

That kind of implies they do. Still very vague, but a hint anyway.

Well, Engineers could either be employed by military or private corporations. Plus an Engineer would not be both Ship Commander and Shipyard Supervisor/Vessel Designer at the same time, but each role may have overlapping skills.

"The navy does not, for the most part, build its own ships. Most are constructed by corporate or megacorporate yards and turned over to the navy with due ceremony.

Mostly this ...

However, some highly classified vessels are built or modified in yards owned by the navy, usually located at a depot and ostensibly part of the repair and maintenance facility.

... and occasionally this ^^.

If built by the Navy, then this

The Third Imperium, copyright 2021, page 13. (bolding mine)

"The Imperial Navy is a vast interstellar military force with bases spread throughout Imperial space. Most sectors have a Naval Depot, a dedicated star system where the navy’s starships are built and serviced."

would conclude my interpretation based upon your evidence.

 

[Terry Mixon]

Well, Engineers could either be employed by military or private corporations. Plus an Engineer would not be both Ship Commander and Shipyard Supervisor/Vessel Designer at the same time, but each role may have overlapping skills.


Mostly this ...

... and occasionally this ^^.

If built by the Navy, then this


would conclude my interpretation based upon your evidence.

Yep. Hence the need for clairification.

 

[Vormaerin]

Huh. Overlooked that quote. Not reflected in the mechanics anywhere, but interesting. I'm assuming that's a reference to what the US Navy calls "Engineering Duty Officers". Engineering duty officers are heavily involved in the development and management of ship design, technical oversight of refits, and working with shipyards to ensure work quality.

There are Engineering Duty Officers assigned to bases adjacent to shipyards where US military vessels are being built, so they can work with the shipbuilders. The people actually building the ships are not US Naval personnel, though.

 

[Terry Mixon]

Huh. Overlooked that quote. Not reflected in the mechanics anywhere, but interesting. I'm assuming that's a reference to what the US Navy calls "Engineering Duty Officers". Engineering duty officers are heavily involved in the development and management of ship design, technical oversight of refits, and working with shipyards to ensure work quality.

There are Engineering Duty Officers assigned to bases adjacent to shipyards where US military vessels are being built, so they can work with the shipbuilders. The people actually building the ships are not US Naval personnel, though.

I suspect you're probably correct, but it might be more. That's why the Mongeese will have to chip in and clarify it for us.

 

[Condottiere]

Well connected and/or competent Naval technical personnel have three avenues of advancement:

1. Continue in their branch

2. Join the government bureaucracy, associated with overseeing research and development, and/or procurement and construction

3. Take up a consultancy position in private enterprise

 

[Vormaerin]

In the US Navy, the Engineering officer of most ships is not actually possessed of any special training in "engineering". They are Surface Warfare Line officers, same as pretty much all the other officers on the ship. However, to serve as an Engineering officer on a nuclear powered vessel (aircraft carrier or submarine), you do have to go to Naval Nuclear Power School and the Nuclear Power Training Unit (about a year of hardcore training in actual science & engineering). But its still basically management. They just hope you can tell when the reactor is about to explode in case there's no enlisted person around to clue you in.

Since starships are generally nuclear, that's probably why "Engineering" is its own branch in a lot of space shows/games. Or maybe its just because they wanted to give Scotty a different color shirt from the bridge guys.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I will still wait on the verdict from Mongoose. I just hate the fact that these two books were only printed 2 years apart and are either totally contrary or written by people for whom English is not their first language. (Or they were educated in the US, in which case never actually learned how to write properly. At least that is My excuse for why My writing sucks...lol...)

One says that Depots are where Navy Ships are built. It doesn't say some, or most, or a few, or anything else they could have used to clearly convey their intent.

The other says the Navy doesn't even build most of its ships with directly contradicts how the Depots and the Imperial Navy are described as working in Third Imperium. Does this mean that the Imperial Navy does not maintain its vessels either? That this is also done buy outside contractors? If so, why the hell does the navy have huge system-wide shipyards?

Good writing, a good editorial process, and a searchable database for Mongoose authors to have all previous (Mongoose) material available for Continuity means these problems do not happen. No one wants to buy books that keep retconning things simple because the authors don't know that the previous material exists in the first place. I will usually assume incompetence before malicious intent or lack of caring considering how much most of the authors also love Traveller.

 

[Sigtrygg]

In the Third Imperium:
megacorporations have built TL15 shipyards on worlds with a lower TL...
depot systems may have a mainworld that is nothing to do with the depot




A:1 Kinunir lists several builders of the TL15 Kinunir class (Ling Standard, Mars, General, GAS BG, Clan Severn, Yard 17)
AHL Supplement:5 lists many shipbuilders for the TL14 AHL
Gashidda No. 1
Gashidda No. 2
Gashidda No. 3
VLandian No. 1
Vlandian No. 2
Clan Severn
Ling Standard
Yard 17
Yard 16 No. 1
Arshani, Etran
Commonal
Yard 16 No. 3
AHG, AG
Yard 22 No. 1
Yard 11 No. 1
Yard 22 No. 2
Yard 16 No. 4
Tukeral, et al
Delvani
Highlans
Yard 16 No. 1
Yard 22 No. 1
AHG, AG
Arshani, Etran
Gashidda No. 2
Gashidda No. 3
Clan Severn
Vlandian No. 1
Yard 17
Ling Standard
Vlandian No. 3
Gashidda No. 1
Delvani
Yard 16 No. 3
Tukera, et al
Highlans
Commonal
Yard 11 No. 1
Yard 22 No. 1
Gashidda No, 2
Gashidda No. 3
Yard 16 No. 1
AHG, AG
Arshani, Etran
Vlandian No. 3
Comrnonal
Gashidda No. 1
Yard 16 No. 3
Vlandian No. 1
Delvani
Tukera, at a1
Yard 17
Ling Standard
Clan Severn
Yard 11 No. 1
Highlans
Gashidda No. 2
Yard 16 No. 1
Yard 22 No. 1
Gashidda No. 3
Arshani, Etran
Vlandian No. 3
AHG, AG
Commonal
Gashidda No. 1
Yard 17
Highlans
Yard 16 No. 1
Tukera, et al
Gashidda No. 2
Yard 11 No. 1
Delvani
Ling Standard
Clan Severn
Yard 16 No. 3
Vlandian No. 1
Arshani, Etran
Yard 22 No. 1
Gashidda No, 3
Yard 17
Highlans
AHG, AG
Vlandian No. 3
Gashidda No. 1
Commonal
Yard 16 No. 3
Gashidda No. 2
Yard 16 No. 1
Ling Standard
Yard 11 No. 1
Delvani
Clan Severn

 

[phavoc]

So, in a couple of threads, there has been some spirited discussion on who builds the ships for the Imperial Navy, where they are built, and who oversees the commercial shipyards in regular systems (SPA or the commercial entities that built them). The core of the debate seems to be centered around some conrotatory information from two different Mongoose Second Edition books, which I will quote below. Could someone let us know which is right and who controls/oversees the yards in normal systems, whether they make Navy ships or not? It would be super helpful.

The Third Imperium, copyright 2021, page 13. (bolding mine)

"The Imperial Navy is a vast interstellar military force with bases spread throughout Imperial space. Most sectors have a Naval Depot, a dedicated star system where the navy’s starships are built and serviced."

The Imperial Navy, copyright 2023, page 39. (bolding mine)

"The navy does not, for the most part, build its own ships. Most are constructed by corporate or megacorporate yards and turned over to the navy with due ceremony. However, some highly classified vessels are built or modified in yards owned by the navy, usually located at a depot and ostensibly part of the repair and maintenance facility. It is rumoured that some vessels are so secret that they are constructed where even the regular navy will not come into contact with them, in concealed or disguised shipyards located in otherwise uninteresting systems."

I think what you are seeing here is version creep. The explanations listed above are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Previous canonical versions of Traveller have said essentially the same thing - Depots DO build warships, they DO build some highly-classified experimental ones that are away from the prying eye's of the general public (hence Depot systems are restricted space - but not necessarily interdicted except in certain places). What the above is missing is more specificity. And that you are unlikely to get. As we've seen previously, MGT rules like to be kind of loosey-goosey in many areas.

It would be far easier for the Navy to have a classified shipyard in a hollowed-out asteroid located in a Depot system so that it already has control over the system than it would be for them to build a super-sekret yard in an out-of-the-way system that someone could accidentally stumble upon. Even putting it in an interdicted system isn't going to work well since you have to ship in supplies, materials and personnel. Eventually the location would get out. Far better to put it where you already control the eyes and you can (almost) hide it in plain sight and it's just another classified operation in an already classified system.

 

[Terry Mixon]

I think what you are seeing here is version creep. The explanations listed above are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Previous canonical versions of Traveller have said essentially the same thing - Depots DO build warships, they DO build some highly-classified experimental ones that are away from the prying eye's of the general public (hence Depot systems are restricted space - but not necessarily interdicted except in certain places). What the above is missing is more specificity. And that you are unlikely to get. As we've seen previously, MGT rules like to be kind of loosey-goosey in many areas.

It would be far easier for the Navy to have a classified shipyard in a hollowed-out asteroid located in a Depot system so that it already has control over the system than it would be for them to build a super-sekret yard in an out-of-the-way system that someone could accidentally stumble upon. Even putting it in an interdicted system isn't going to work well since you have to ship in supplies, materials and personnel. Eventually the location would get out. Far better to put it where you already control the eyes and you can (almost) hide it in plain sight and it's just another classified operation in an already classified system.

I agree. It wouldn't kill them to say that, though.

 

[Terry Mixon]

I'll add to the flurry of conversation by adding a section taken from The Imperial Navy on procurement. This really makes it sounds like most Navy shipbuilding takes place away from a depot. Otherwise, the following makes little sense. I'll toss this into the other threads as well.

---

"There are other pressures at play, as well. Megacorporations and major shipyards have a lot of influence and can persuade the procurement board to buy their design despite that of a competitor being, on balance, better. Employment is yet another issue; the navy has at times ended up with rather poor vessels because building them kept huge numbers of people in work. It is the naval crews that end up paying the price for this economic decision but in a system as complex as the Imperium, trade-offs are inevitable.

The procurement process can be very complex, with the cost of a ship class offset in various ways. For example, a shipyard might offer to build a particular class at a discount, providing the Imperium funds the construction of a prototype it hopes will later be adopted for service. Conversely, the navy might agree to award a build contract to a particular megacorporation in return for the construction of infrastructure on a key world. These offset deals can be so complex that nobody really knows the true cost of the project, and in turn can lead to rather strange decisions.

Once a contract is awarded, ships go into production, usually at several yards in different regions. Lessons learned with the lead ships of the class are then incorporated into later examples, which in some cases can lead to an extensive mid-build redesign. One trick commonly used by the procurement board is to initially build a ship with a reduced specification, then ask for money for upgrades in future budgets. When this works, it can produce very capable vessels that would not have been affordable in a single budget allocation, but if the extra funding is not awarded the ship will have to manage without some of its intended systems. This is one reason why some classes never receive their full electronics fit, point defences or other necessary components."

 

[paltrysum]

So, in a couple of threads, there has been some spirited discussion on who builds the ships for the Imperial Navy, where they are built, and who oversees the commercial shipyards in regular systems (SPA or the commercial entities that built them). The core of the debate seems to be centered around some conrotatory information from two different Mongoose Second Edition books, which I will quote below. Could someone let us know which is right and who controls/oversees the yards in normal systems, whether they make Navy ships or not? It would be super helpful.

The Third Imperium, copyright 2021, page 13. (bolding mine)

"The Imperial Navy is a vast interstellar military force with bases spread throughout Imperial space. Most sectors have a Naval Depot, a dedicated star system where the navy’s starships are built and serviced."

The Imperial Navy, copyright 2023, page 39. (bolding mine)

"The navy does not, for the most part, build its own ships. Most are constructed by corporate or megacorporate yards and turned over to the navy with due ceremony. However, some highly classified vessels are built or modified in yards owned by the navy, usually located at a depot and ostensibly part of the repair and maintenance facility. It is rumoured that some vessels are so secret that they are constructed where even the regular navy will not come into contact with them, in concealed or disguised shipyards located in otherwise uninteresting systems."

I wrote the first one in Third Imperium. Martin wrote the second in Imperial Navy. I think Martin's statement clarifies mine. Most ships are built at commercial shipyards (that are not Depots) but ships are built at Depots as well. I like Martin's specification that classified contruction projects happen at Depots. It's a nice distinction.

So it is not incorrect to say that "the navy’s starships are built" at Depot, but it seems to indicate that all the navy's ships are built there, which is not the case.

 

[Condottiere]

Hulls should be pretty easy to construct, and would take up most of the space.

But I would think, in most cases, you have the major ship components first, and build the hull around them.

Unless it's some form of modular construction, which could mean that these components could be manufactured in another system, and then sent to the spaceyard for assembly.

 

[Terry Mixon]

I wrote the first one in Third Imperium. Martin wrote the second in Imperial Navy. I think Martin's statement clarifies mine. Most ships are built at commercial shipyards (that are not Depots) but ships are built at Depots as well. I like Martin's specification that classified contruction projects happen at Depots. It's a nice distinction.

So it is not incorrect to say that "the navy’s starships are built" at Depot, but it seems to indicate that all the navy's ships are built there, which is not the case.

And that's perfectly fine. It makes sense and allows us to know the lay of the land when we start changing things, if we do. Thank you for the clarification.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I wrote the first one in Third Imperium. Martin wrote the second in Imperial Navy. I think Martin's statement clarifies mine. Most ships are built at commercial shipyards (that are not Depots) but ships are built at Depots as well. I like Martin's specification that classified contruction projects happen at Depots. It's a nice distinction.

So it is not incorrect to say that "the navy’s starships are built" at Depot, but it seems to indicate that all the navy's ships are built there, which is not the case.

The author has spoken. This settles it. Thank you for your response. We appreciate it.