Imperial Navy Ship and Shipyard Sizes

[Vormaerin]

The disagreement seems to be that I think that patrol and watchfulness is the function of the subsector navies and the colonial forces. The actual weight of Imperial Navy is deepset. Colonial forces are expected to patrol their systems. The subsector Navy provide additional resources and patrol systems that can't sustain their own colonial patrol ships.

The Corridor Fleet is the main Reserve Fleet. That is where the largest concentration of military assets are. Because Corridor is important and under threat itself and because it allows the Imperium to send those forces towards Vland/Lishun or towards Deneb/Spinward Marches.

The Spinward Marches have a Sector Fleet. The Deneb Sector has a Sector Fleet. Corridor has a Grand Admiral with the Reserve Fleet. If the Aslan attacked The Imperium via the Trojan Reach, the Spinward Sector Fleet would provide the initial support while the Deneb Fleet would reinforce as well. The Corridor Fleet would use their massive resources to both replace the Spinward/Deneb border with the Vargr stayed protected while funneling more forces towards the front. The Corridor Fleet Grand Admiral would take charge so there isn't chain of command issue between the Spinward & Deneb Sector admirals if there's enough Aslan to make that a major war.

What I originally said was that the Imperial Navy is unlikely to have its ships building at the forward edge of its deployment zone (like Tobia). The Duke of Tobia can build warships for his and his neighbors' Colonial fleets. Which will mostly be small patrol vessels, with a few heavier vessels by the bigger worlds.

I then commented that reinforcements would come from Deneb & Corridor. The Deneb Fleet is bigger than the Marches Fleet and responsible for the Reft Sector, which stretches down past Tobia. The Corridor Fleet is the Strategic Reserve. So if its a major war, that'll be the next set of reinforcements.

The time frames of space warfare in Charted Space are like they were in the Age of Sail. It took 6 to 12 weeks to sail from England to America in the 18th century, much less South Africa or India. The Russian Fleet that lost at the Battle of Tsushima Strait sailed SEVEN MONTHS to get to the war theater. It is a very different paradigm than we are used to nowadays. Four months is mind boggling to us, but it was par for the course a 150 years ago.

And the no FTL communications rule for charted space is specifically to bring that sense of vastness and time to the setting.

 

[Condottiere]

If I had to guess, strategic reserves are based at a domain level, from which sector fleets are reinforced.

Sector command allocates sector fleet assets to important systems specifically, and subsectors in general.

 

[Nelphine]

Imtu I love making Vargr rampant. Corridor isn't an effective reserve, because they never have enough ships, nor sufficient population to justify more. Instead Corridor is the drain that makes it difficult for the 3I to effectively expand anywhere else.

Note, this is not Canon in anyvway. I just love Vargr.

 

[Vormaerin]

I mean, that's kind of canon? Except that sometimes that threat is to Deneb. So the Vargr swarming into Deneb means that the Deneb Fleet doesn't come to the aid of Marches like it is supposed to and the Corridor Fleet piles in behind the still unmoved Deneb Sector Fleet... And you get a huge logjam of fleets trying to move while everyone local is screaming for help against real and imagined Vargr.

 

[Nelphine]

Yeah I just take it further, and Corridor is always screaming for reinforcements, from both sides, and also making communication with the core worlds very unreliable.

 

[Vormaerin]

That is part of why Corridor is the location of the Reserve Fleet. It is very strategically important and it allows (theoretically) for the Reserve Fleet to shift either direction depending on where the war actually is. If the Reserve fleet was located in Deneb or the Marches, it would either be a lot farther from helping the Vland to Antares border or it would be two weaker reserves as they are split.

 

[MasterGwydion]

The disagreement seems to be that I think that patrol and watchfulness is the function of the subsector navies and the colonial forces. The actual weight of Imperial Navy is deepset. Colonial forces are expected to patrol their systems. The subsector Navy provide additional resources and patrol systems that can't sustain their own colonial patrol ships.

The Corridor Fleet is the main Reserve Fleet. That is where the largest concentration of military assets are. Because Corridor is important and under threat itself and because it allows the Imperium to send those forces towards Vland/Lishun or towards Deneb/Spinward Marches.

The Spinward Marches have a Sector Fleet. The Deneb Sector has a Sector Fleet. Corridor has a Grand Admiral with the Reserve Fleet. If the Aslan attacked The Imperium via the Trojan Reach, the Spinward Sector Fleet would provide the initial support while the Deneb Fleet would reinforce as well. The Corridor Fleet would use their massive resources to both replace the Spinward/Deneb border with the Vargr stayed protected while funneling more forces towards the front. The Corridor Fleet Grand Admiral would take charge so there isn't chain of command issue between the Spinward & Deneb Sector admirals if there's enough Aslan to make that a major war.

What I originally said was that the Imperial Navy is unlikely to have its ships building at the forward edge of its deployment zone (like Tobia). The Duke of Tobia can build warships for his and his neighbors' Colonial fleets. Which will mostly be small patrol vessels, with a few heavier vessels by the bigger worlds.

I then commented that reinforcements would come from Deneb & Corridor. The Deneb Fleet is bigger than the Marches Fleet and responsible for the Reft Sector, which stretches down past Tobia. The Corridor Fleet is the Strategic Reserve. So if its a major war, that'll be the next set of reinforcements.

The time frames of space warfare in Charted Space are like they were in the Age of Sail. It took 6 to 12 weeks to sail from England to America in the 18th century, much less South Africa or India. The Russian Fleet that lost at the Battle of Tsushima Strait sailed SEVEN MONTHS to get to the war theater. It is a very different paradigm than we are used to nowadays. Four months is mind boggling to us, but it was par for the course a 150 years ago.

And the no FTL communications rule for charted space is specifically to bring that sense of vastness and time to the setting.

Which was why building in the Depots systems made sense, but now that is no longer the case. I should just start considering the 3I the US and call it done. Late-stage Capitalism, rampant corruption, etc.. I will likely stop playing in or around the 3I then. I live this is real life and hate it. I do not want it in My gaming as well.

I never run or play with the Solomani either. I have no room for bigots in real life or as anything other than the enemy in games I am involved in.

 

[Terry Mixon]

Which was why building in the Depots systems made sense, but now that is no longer the case. I should just start considering the 3I the US and call it done. Late-stage Capitalism, rampant corruption, etc.. I will likely stop playing in or around the 3I then. I live this is real life and hate it. I do not want it in My gaming as well.

I never run or play with the Solomani either. I have no room for bigots in real life or as anything other than the enemy in games I am involved in.

Just toss the ideas you dislike. Maske the 3I what you want.

For me, I intend to use the rampant corruption and late-stage capitalism as major obstacles to be overcome. I'll add in powerful nobles who will compromise anything to achieve their ends. Those make good things to fight.

 

[Sigtrygg]

The Imperium was originally presented as corrupt and in decline.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Just toss the ideas you dislike. Maske the 3I what you want.

For me, I intend to use the rampant corruption and late-stage capitalism as major obstacles to be overcome. I'll add in powerful nobles who will compromise anything to achieve their ends. Those make good things to fight.

I actually already completely rewrote Solomani history post-Rule of Man. They stopped being part of the Imperium during the Aslan Border Wars. They are the Imperium's closest ally and lend their Fleets to defend the Imperium, until the Rebellion when they pulled all of their ships back within the Solomani Sphere and closed their borders with the Imperium. Solomani fight with a Scorched Earth policy, what the Aslan call Total War. They are feared combatants, but not overly aggressive outside of wartime. Descalation is preferred, but if that doesn't work, obital bombardment of all planetary infrastructure and descruction of every non-Terran ship within the warzone is pretty much the rule.

 

[MasterGwydion]

The Imperium was originally presented as corrupt and in decline.

This is pretty much how I use the 3I. Late-stage Capitalism with Oligarchs playing noble because they are all narcissists.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I really should rewrite the Solomani Book with the history I wrote. Also, the complete lack of Solomani Supremacists. They lost the civil war and ran to Malorn 0113 and started the Empire of Man, bio-engineering supersoldiers and worshipping their mostly-dead Emperor. lol.

 

[Alqualonde]

Which was why building in the Depots systems made sense, but now that is no longer the case. I should just start considering the 3I the US and call it done. Late-stage Capitalism, rampant corruption, etc.. I will likely stop playing in or around the 3I then. I live this is real life and hate it. I do not want it in My gaming as well.

I never run or play with the Solomani either. I have no room for bigots in real life or as anything other than the enemy in games I am involved in.

Maybe play the Terran during the interstellar wars ?

 

[Vormaerin]

Even when my campaigns are directly in the Imperium, which is rare as I usually set them in the Islands or some other 'over the border' place, I don't generally find that the Imperium itself is that relevant to play. The planetary governments, cultures, and individuals are the fun part and the thing that makes the setting shine. The coolest part of Charted Space is the massive time lag and vastness. If the Emperor gets assassinated, it'll take the better part of a year for that word to get to the Marches.

The Imperium, to me, is basically a laissez-faire trade cartel. I started Traveller when the Imperium was barely a suggestion and then it was largely the old, tired, and spread thin. The published version has steadily become more and more vigorous, involved, and proactive. I really feel like people do not understand how slow communications are and how irrelevant that makes these higher and higher levels of government.

The Imperium does not behave like any country in today's world, because it doesn't have today's world's level of interconnectedness and communication. "What the Empire is like" is going to be extremely dependent on your local officials. Because the guy who has oversight over the Duke of Tobia will take a year to respond to anything. Especially if you are running in Marches or Reaches. The Domain of Deneb doesn't have an Archduke. It doesn't have a Grand Admiral. Half its sectors don't even have Sector Fleets. The Fleet Admiral of the Trojan Reach detachment reports to the Sector Admiral of the Spinward Marches. Who is three months away...once they get around to replacing the last one, which they haven't. Literally nobody is over the Duke of Tobia except the Emperor right now.

Maybe this is just me, but I always understood the strength of the Charted Space setting was that it was very different experiences depending on which sector/subsector you choose to set your campaign.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Even when my campaigns are directly in the Imperium, which is rare as I usually set them in the Islands or some other 'over the border' place, I don't generally find that the Imperium itself is that relevant to play. The planetary governments, cultures, and individuals are the fun part and the thing that makes the setting shine. The coolest part of Charted Space is the massive time lag and vastness. If the Emperor gets assassinated, it'll take the better part of a year for that word to get to the Marches.

The Imperium, to me, is basically a laissez-faire trade cartel. I started Traveller when the Imperium was barely a suggestion and then it was largely the old, tired, and spread thin. The published version has steadily become more and more vigorous, involved, and proactive. I really feel like people do not understand how slow communications are and how irrelevant that makes these higher and higher levels of government.

The Imperium does not behave like any country in today's world, because it doesn't have today's world's level of interconnectedness and communication. "What the Empire is like" is going to be extremely dependent on your local officials

It would behave more like the European Empires of the 1,600s with their overseas holdings. They were basically independent unless they received a directive from the Crown.

. Because the guy who has oversight over the Duke of Tobia will take a year to respond to anything. Especially if you are running in Marches or Reaches. The Domain of Deneb doesn't have an Archduke. It doesn't have a Grand Admiral. Half its sectors don't even have Sector Fleets. The Fleet Admiral of the Trojan Reach detachment reports to the Sector Admiral of the Spinward Marches. Who is three months away...once they get around to replacing the last one, which they haven't. Literally nobody is over the Duke of Tobia except the Emperor right now.

The written material agrees with you on this. The Duke of Tobia does whatever he wants and only the emperor can say different.

Maybe this is just me, but I always understood the strength of the Charted Space setting was that it was very different experiences depending on which sector/subsector you choose to set your campaign.

 

[Terry Mixon]

Because I couldn't help myself, I went and manually rolled and calculated the total shipyard build capacity (all build slips full, sir!) and annual output in completed tonnage for Mora, Trin, Glisten, Rhylanor, and Vincennes (it's relevant to my game) as dictated by the World Builder's Handbook. I tried to do a spreadsheet but there is nothing on the sector data in the text files I pulled from Travellermap (that I know of) that tells me if the system is an X-Boat link and that's one of the DMs. If I'm wrong, please tell me.

The shipyard build capacity numbers in tons that I got from the calculations in Trillion Credit Squadron (for comparison) were:

Mora: 12,000,000
Trin: 11,500,000
Glisten: 8,800,000
Rhylanor: 7,200,000
Vincennes: 12,000,000

The numbers from the World Builder's Handbook have a slew of die rolls that introduced some volatility, kicking Glisten to the top of the pack. I'll bet that ticked off Duchess Delphine!

These numbers (according to Gier) are for the entire system, including yards not at the starport. This is the whole ball of wax. That leads me to the conclusion that the TCS numbers are also for the entire system.

Mora: 10,500,000 (Annual Output: 1,750,000)
Trin: 9,000,000 (Annual Output: 1,500,000)
Glisten: 11,200,000 (Annual Output: 1,866,667)
Rhylanor: 8,000,000 (Annual Output: 1,600,000)
Vincennes: 10,000,000 (Annual Output: 1,666,667)

Honestly, after all the time and effort it took me (and how much I hate maths), the numbers aren't wildly different. I'm not sure I would ever advise anyone to use the method presented in the World Builder's Handbook. Your mileage may vary, but there you are.

 

[J. L. Brown]

Because I couldn't help myself, I went and manually rolled and calculated the shipyard capacity and annual output for Mora, Trin, Glisten, Rhylanor, and Vincennes (it's relevant to my game) as dictated by the World Builder's Handbook. I tried to do a spreadsheet but there is nothing on the sector data in the text files I pulled from Travellermap (that I know of) that tells me if the system is an X-Boat link and that's one of the DMs. If I'm wrong, please tell me.

The shipyard capacity numbers in tons that I got from the calculations in Trillion Credit Squadron (for comparison) were:

Mora: 12,000,000
Trin: 11,500,000
Glisten: 8,800,000
Rhylanor: 7,200,000
Vincennes: 12,000,000

The numbers from the World Builder's Handbook have a slew of die rolls that introduced some volatility, kicking Glisten to the top of the pack. I'll bet that ticked off Duchess Delphine!

These numbers (according to Gier) are for the entire system, including yards not at the starport. This is the whole ball of wax. That leads me to the conclusion that the TCS numbers are also for the entire system.

Mora: 10,500,000 (Annual Output: 1,750,000)
Trin: 9,000,000 (Annual Output: 1,500,000)
Glisten: 11,200,000 (Annual Output: 1,866,667)
Rhylanor: 8,000,000 (Annual Output: 1,600,000)
Vincennes: 10,000,000 (Annual Output: 1,666,667)

Honestly, after all the time and effort it took me (and how much I hate maths), the numbers aren't wildly different. I'm not sure I would ever advise anyone to use the method presented in the World Builder's Handbook. Your mileage may vary, but there you are.

Please help me understand your numbers here, because I am not sure I follow. The TCS numbers up top are supposed to represent the capacity of the ship-berths (and construction ship-ways) for the entire system, right? There is no 'time' component, this is straight volume. The WBHB numbers are something-something, plus (produced volume of output from all berths and construction ship-ways). Is the something-something meant to represent the same as the TCS number, the absolute volume of the facilities, separate from their production?

 

[Terry Mixon]

Please help me understand your numbers here, because I am not sure I follow. The TCS numbers up top are supposed to represent the capacity of the ship-berths (and construction ship-ways) for the entire system, right? There is no 'time' component, this is straight volume. The WBHB numbers are something-something, plus (produced volume of output from all berths and construction ship-ways). Is the something-something meant to represent the same as the TCS number, the absolute volume of the facilities, separate from their production?

The TCS numbers are total shipbuilding capacity at one time. If every slip was filled, that is the number. The World Builder's Handbook numbers are also total shipbuilding capacity followed by the annual output of the system in completed tonnage. I'll tweak my post to make that clearer.

 

[Terry Mixon]

Please help me understand your numbers here, because I am not sure I follow. The TCS numbers up top are supposed to represent the capacity of the ship-berths (and construction ship-ways) for the entire system, right? There is no 'time' component, this is straight volume. The WBHB numbers are something-something, plus (produced volume of output from all berths and construction ship-ways). Is the something-something meant to represent the same as the TCS number, the absolute volume of the facilities, separate from their production?

I dropped a spreadsheet earlier in this thread that gave the TCS numbers for the Spinward Marches, Deneb, Trojan Reach, and Reft sectors if that would prove helpful.

 

[J. L. Brown]

The TCS numbers are total shipbuilding capacity at one time. If every slip was filled, that is the number. The World Builder's Handbook numbers are also total shipbuilding capacity followed by the annual output of the system in completed hulls. I'll tweak my post to make that clearer.

Thank you. I'm not sure I buy the WBHB numbers; they seem to imply that all ships take about six years (except at Rhylanor!) to build. Maybe they make sense, and I have not run the numbers myself -- but at first blush this seems a bit odd, since it implies the average ship is about 2191.5 MCr.

I dropped a spreadsheet earlier in this thread that gave the TCS numbers for the Spinward Marches, Deneb, Trojan Reach, and Reft sectors if that would prove helpful.

It did! Thank you very much!