Imperial Navy Question

[ottarrus]

So, I'm happy re-reading the 2024 Imperial Navy book and I have a question that was not made clear therein.

The Named Sector Fleet is a different organization from the Subsector Fleets. Is the Named Sector Fleet made up of fleets of their own or do they draw assets from the Subsector Fleets and form Task Forces?
Example:
Is there a 123rd Deneb Sector Fleet or does the Deneb Sector Fleet pull assets from the subsector fleets to make up Task Force 123?
[note: A 'task force' is a grouping of ships gathered for the purpose of executing a given mission; assets are drawn from formal organizational fleets and squadrons to make up the task force, but the TF is a temporary command]

 

[EccentRick]

They are separate fleets, and the book uses the Old Expanses sector for its example.
The Sector Fleet is composed of:
1) Old Expanses Flag Fleet; 23 Squadrons, 3 Task Groups, Patrol Flotilla
2) Bhule Contingent; 11 Squadrons, 2 Task Groups, Patrol Flotilla
3) Kresh Contingent; 3 Squadrons, Patrol Flotilla
4) Peart Contingent; 7 Squadrons, 1 Task Group, Patrol Flotilla
5) Alpha Crucis Detachment; 2 Squadrons, 2 Task Groups
6) Albach Contingent; 5 Squadrons, 2 Task Groups, Patrol Flotilla

The So Skire Subsector Fleet is composed of:
1) Di Meola Contingent; 2 Task Forces, Response Flotilla, Patrol Flotilla
2) Peart Contingent; Patrol Flotilla
2) Hjorts Contingent; Patrol Flotilla

Note that Peart is hosting contingents from both the Sector and Subsector Fleets.

 

[WHULorigan]

The Named Sector Fleet is a different organization from the Subsector Fleets. Is the Named Sector Fleet made up of fleets of their own or do they draw assets from the Subsector Fleets and form Task Forces?

Example: Is there a 123rd Deneb Sector Fleet or does the Deneb Sector Fleet pull assets from the subsector fleets to make up Task Force 123?

EccentRick above is correct for the Imperial Navy book. But note that MJD's take on the issue diverges somewhat from older CT material. Originally in CT the Named Sector Fleet was simply the Regional Command for all of the Numbered Subsector (and any additional) Fleets and Task Forces assigned to or operating within a Sector.

​

(And note that this was separate from Numbered Imperial Reserve Fleets on the one hand, and the "Subsector Navy" on the other which was a series of separate independent local Provincial Navies maintained by the individual Subsectors and under the authority of the local Subsector Dukes.)​

The situation was much like the historical USN, which (among others) had the "Pacific Fleet" (Regional Command/"Named Fleet"), to which might be assigned a varying number of "Numbered Fleets" (e.g. the 4th and 7th Fleets), and any Task Forces or Battle Groups operating within its Regional command would also fall under its authority while in those waters.

So the 1st option you mentioned above is somewhat of a middle-ground between MJD's interpretation and the historical CT High Guard interpretation. (And I think I like that 1st option better personally).

But I mention all that because you or others may come across the earlier interpretation in other Traveller materials, and it may engender confusion.

 

[Condottiere]

1. Structurally, sector fleets have settled on the formula that was originally described in Grand Fleet.

2. These seem to be how the Navy organizes it's assets during a Cold War situation, bordering large, near peer, interstellar polities that can, and will, initiate hostilities.

3. The other two configurations I can think of would be distant frontier sectors without immediate threats, and core sectors.

4. Planetary navies will reflect gross national product, and likelihood of perceived threat, and it's nature.

5. Huscarl navies would be more about protecting their sponsor, and his holdings.

6. If there is an actual difference between a subsector navy, and an Imperium reserve fleet that happens to be anchored there, it would be like a national guard, and a militia that can be directly directed by the subsector duke.

 

[WHULorigan]

1. Structurally, Sector Fleets have settled on the formula that was originally described in Grand Fleet.

That is because MJD was also the author of Grand Fleet. But yes, it seems to have become the standard.

5. Huscarl Navies would be more about protecting their sponsor, and his holdings.

Yes. And for purposes of discussion, note that nothing that I mentioned above in my post falls under the category of a Huscarle Navy.

6. If there is an actual difference between a Subsector Navy, and an Imperium Reserve Fleet that happens to be anchored there, it would be like a National Guard, and a Militia that can be directly directed by the Subsector Duke.

I see the Subsector Navy more like the National Guard (and any Starfaring-capable units of Planetary Navies that come under its overarching jurisdiction during peacetime) as Militias. The Imperium Reserve Fleet would be analogous to the Army Reserve or Navy Reserve, some on active duty at any given time to maintain training and readiness, with many ships in ready reserve on stand-down, and older units in mothball fleets for reactivation in the event of a major conflict to be assigned to mobilized Numbered Imperial Reserve Fleets as necessary. At those times, the Subsector Navy would become Imperialized, and its units assigned to Numbered Imperial Reserve Fleets as well.

This is how the original Naval structure was supposed to work to the best of my knowledge.

 

[ottarrus]

So this is how I'm interpreting your responses [and thanks for those, btw]:
- The Named Sector Fleet is made up of the heavy squadrons... the dreadnoughts, battleships, and cruiser squadrons, plus supports. The squadrons are not part of an administrative fleet command, but rather make up task forces as needed. This is the Regular Navy, the careerists shepherding all the one-term-and-done kids who accomplish the warfighting missions. They have the high speed/low drag ships and/or older ships that are in the best repair.
- The Subsector Fleets are are subordinate to Named Sector Command but generally operate within a subsector sized sandbox on patrol, presence /show the flag, and noble or corporate support missions. They do all the 'little jobs' of the Imperial Navy, from customs inspections and piracy suppression to small scale interventions. Their principal job is to be a visible Imperial Navy presence. They're crewed by regulars as well as reservists doing their one year in four as well as a leavening of one-term kids. Their technology is still Strategic Fleet Mobility [4-5G/J4] but their ships are older and more worn. A ship or squadron command in the Subsector Fleet means that you're probably not ever gonna make admiral.

 

[WHULorigan]

So this is how I'm interpreting your responses [and thanks for those, btw]:
- The Named Sector Fleet is made up of the heavy squadrons . . .
- The Subsector Fleets are subordinate to Named Sector Command but generally operate within a subsector sized sandbox on patrol, . . .

And based on my reading of Imperial Navy, I think this is actually getting to the heart of MJD's objection to the perceived "older standard model" of the Imperial Navy Fleet Structure, in that to simply have a bunch of Numbered Fleets assigned in their entirety to given subsectors at their Subsector Capitals and/or Naval Bases around the respective Subsectors, all ultimately under the Named Sector Fleet Command, would allow an invading fleet to defeat the Imperium piecemeal by focusing a superior invasion fleet at a time and place of their own choosing onto any given Frontier Subsector Fleet (remember, this is not the modern USN or RN, where the entire Fleet is in radio communication with Fleet Command - any help is a minimum of 2 weeks away, under ideal circumstances).

So by having the "Named Sector Fleet" be a core of Squadrons or Task Units of Capital Elements anchored at Depots and Major Bases across the Sector, combined with other Task Units comprised of elements taken up from the Numbered Subsector Fleets within a Subsector (creating a Task Force or Battle Fleet) creates a more mobile responsive force that can act at the point of conflict while still leaving local Subsector Forces to harry or delay the invasion fleet and/or relay the intelligence to predetermined fleet communiqué locations.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Only with the benefit of god mode. MJD has always been a fan of grand fleets this and grand fleets that, trouble with that is it is impossible to coordinate across several subsectors let a lone a whole sector. The communication lag requires local commanders to decide strategy and tactics.

I have yet to lose a game of FFW as the Zhodani, because I know where I am going well in advance of the Imperial player and they are always guessing where I will be in a few turns time.

 

[actionman]

A ship or squadron command in the Subsector Fleet means that you're probably not ever gonna make admiral.

I wonder about that. It seems to me that subsector fleets are where the action is. Subsector fleets handle contingencies far more frequently than the sector fleet(s), and so it would seem that subsector fleets on the frontiers would be excellent feeders of experienced personnel to the sector fleet. The sector fleet might be seen as a haven of incompetence, "kicked upstairs" so to speak, where people are sent either to retire or to prevent them from wrecking anything. Then again, the sector fleet, while a retirement post or training post, would be an immense repository of naval experience to be called on in crisis. Outside of a major war, nothing ever happens that requires the destructive power of a sector fleet. How often does the sector fleet roll, once or twice a year for its training exercises? Consider the cost of all that jump fuel. Naval planners would be under great pressure to reduce that cost. There's probably a lot of simulator training and rare movement every so often to make sure the drives still work. Something else that is very important is the time it takes to ship personnel between between duty stations. While a spaceman is in transit he's not on the line doing his job. He's not doing his job, he's not training, for weeks or months at a time. It seems like an immense waste of money. Perhaps subsector fleets rotate between postings (so that the movement from one station to the next is a training event in itself), or they are manned, maintained, and supplied locally within their subsector. I don't think personnel would travel for schools or anything like that. I think travel between duty stations would be minimized to save time and money.

An analogy:

In Dune, House Atreides picks up and moves all of its people from Caladan to Dune. People, equipment, vehicles, dependents, military units, atomics, everything. Subsector fleets could be like that. There could be a subsector fleet rotation schedule that would ensure subsector fleets pass through maintenance depots and training facilities every few years, fleets from frontier subsectors could get a quiet posting for a while, and fleets from interior subsectors could gain experience on the frontiers and other hotspots.

 

[actionman]

Something else, I doubt that any kind of militia / reservist arrangement would exist in naval fleets at any level, even planetary navies.

People would have to get to port, take a shuttle up to their assigned ship in orbit, stow their gear, do admin activities like formation, meals, etc. They're going to need to sleep at some point. Then they'd train for 5 minutes before it would be time to put everything away, have final formation / accountability, then board the shuttle to get back to the downport by the time the event is scheduled to end. Then they get to travel home. And go to work the next morning. Maybe there's stimulator training at the regional naval facility or online training, and then a month long event each year where people can have a travel day, train hard aboard ship for a month with no days off, then get a travel day home.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Marc wrote an article about the "Battlefleets of the Marches" in JTAS9

"As a result, in both the attack and the defense, the fleet has become the basic maneuver unit for naval operations.
Under an admiral with complete authority and very wide latitude, the fleet can maneuver to the probable site of an enemy incursion, there to wait for its arrival, or to move on to the next probable site. Giving such authority to lesser squadron commanders would cause chaos and disorganization on the one hand, and would allow squadrons to be engaged (and possibly destroyed) piecemeal on the other."

 

[Condottiere]

1. I tend to think that probably due to playability considerations, militaries in Traveller are understated.

2. There's a reason I categorized sector fleets depending on the perceived local threat level.

3. The subsector fleets likely are the analogue to limitanei, or frontier troops.

4. At least, along said frontiers.

5. You probably have to have a very good reason, if not an existential threat, to deploy them outside their subsector.

6. Typical size of deployed naval formations, in Traveller, is hard to say.

7. I tend to think it's more Guadalcanal campaign, than Jutland.

8. That's not to say, they wouldn't look for a chance to concentrate, and meet the opposing navy in a decisive battle.

9. But communications lag would push most commanders to cluster their battle squadrons.

 

[Sigtrygg]

In the FFW boardgame there is no named Spinward Marches fleet unit counter - the fleets are numbered apart from Corridor, TF17 (training fleet 17?) and 1st Provisional

Every fleet requires an admiral in charge.

There are four fleets in the four subsector area but you can put them wherever you want, individual squadrons ahve to be allocated to a fleet or a naval base.

Individual squadrons may be assigned/reassigned to fleets as per ranking admiral decides.

 

[WHULorigan]

3. The subsector fleets likely are the analogue to limitanei, or frontier troops.

4. At least, along said frontiers.

5. You probably have to have a very good reason, if not an existential threat, to deploy them outside their subsector.

THIS.

 

[WHULorigan]

TF17 (training fleet 17?). Every fleet requires an admiral in charge.

I would guess Task Force 17.

Historically a Task Force was an ad hoc formation created for a particular task and was roughly the equivalent of the typical Batlle Fleet (sometimes a Two-Star (Rear Admiral), more typically a Three-Star (Vice-Admiral) Command (of which there are one or two in the FFW, as I recall - Elphinstone, etc.).

Today Task Forces (or Battle Fleets) are built up from various Task Groups and Task Units/Squadrons.

There are four fleets in the four-subsector area but you can put them wherever you want, individual squadrons have to be allocated to a fleet or a naval base.

Individual squadrons may be assigned/reassigned to fleets as per ranking admiral decides.

 

[Condottiere]

Age of Sail squadrons, ironclad fleets, and Great Patriotic War task forces, are, for their eras, about equivalent.

As starwarships become more larger, sophisticated, and/or specialized, they'll be more micro managed.

 

[steelbrok]

3. The subsector fleets likely are the analogue to limitanei, or frontier troops.

9. But communications lag would push most commanders to cluster their battle squadrons.

I like the limitanei analogy
So the Sector Battle Fleet(s) are more equivalent to the mobile field army

 

[Sigtrygg]

Each fleet is a cluster of squadrons. There are four fleets in and around the four subsectors on the FFW boardgane map. There are ten more fleets that become available as the game progresses.

Squadrons detached from a fleet can stay at a planet and act as system defence until re-incorporated into a fleet.

A sector fleet is a waste of time, where is it deployed, how do you send it orders, how does it respond to events two subsectors away (months of comm lag). The admiral in command of the "sector fleet" may be able to command every other fleet they encounter, but they still don't know what the enemy is doing in real time.

 

[Condottiere]

Chain of command.

And, someone has to oversee logistics, and authorize promotions.

 

[Sigtrygg]

No one command your fleet but the fleet admiral with the fleet, a higher ranking admiral could be several months away, and any orders they issue are based on a situation several months ago and won't be received for several months to come.

Sector admirals do not have god mode or author insight.

I think a lot of people do not fully appreciate the time lag with respect to fighting a war within a subsector, let alone across a sector.

As for assembling a grand fleet of the galaxy, twice, no, just no.

Just for laughs I could run this for eight volunteers - player 1 starts on 3 worlds at the north of a subsector, player 2 starts with 3 worlds at the south of a subsector, there are six worlds in the middle with resources (and thus victory points for control). There are then half a dozen worlds randomly scattered.

On each team 1 player is the world government/admiralty, the other three command one fleet each. You may not talk to each other unless you are in the same hex.

Each turn you submit fleet movements, I send you courier messages as and when they should arrive.