Imperial Marines vs Imperial Army

[ottarrus]

Could you get me a page reference for that please. The word combined only occurs once in the text and refers to combined operations, the word army twice.
There is a quote of interest:


The Imperial Army units are detailed in Invasion Earth, and Fifth Frontier War.

The wargames are not supposed to be taken as OTU canon. Both MM and FC have said so repeatedly.
So that leaves us with the various interpretations of various authors, from those of Loren Wiseman, to the Keith Brothers and the Fugates, to some guy on the Net [aka, mine]. Insofar as I know, there has been no attempt to define the organization, mission, and history of the Imperial Army other than GT: Ground Forces.

 

[ottarrus]

The New Era sourcebooks for the Regency inc Regency Combat Vehicle Guide has the Imperial equipped at TL 14 and 15

I'm presuming that Marines in the high-threat sectors [the Marches, Solomani Rim, Old Expanses, etc.] are equipped to TL 14-15, while the regiments in the less threatened areas, [Gushemege, Fornast, etc.] are equipped to a slightly lesser standard. This syncs with the Navy capital ship deployments, so it makes sense to me.

 

[Sigtrygg]

No.
Just no.
"Let's build and equip our troops with out of date crap superseded by two paradigm shifts in science and technology" said no body ever. National Guard Air Force units have F16s not Sopwith Camels for a reason. National Guard infantry don't train with muskets.
The Imperium has enough TL15 industrial worlds to mass produce all the TL15 equipment needed by the Imperial Army.
Even "TL12" gauss rifles and "TL13" laser weapons are going to be manufactured to TL15 standards and have TL15 accessories on them.
The existence of TL14 troops in FFW is likely a result of the Army not fully upgrading to TL15 universally, but since the Imperium has been at a civilian TL15 of for over a hundred years why line units on the frontier where fighting is likely have not been upgraded yet can only be put down to one thing., "it's the Army, stupid".

 

[Condottiere]

Depends on whether they are trained.

And actually have enough equipment, available.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Outside the Imperium, sure. Inside the Imperium, no way.

 

[steelbrok]

I'm presuming that Marines in the high-threat sectors [the Marches, Solomani Rim, Old Expanses, etc.] are equipped to TL 14-15, while the regiments in the less threatened areas, [Gushemege, Fornast, etc.] are equipped to a slightly lesser standard. This syncs with the Navy capital ship deployments, so it makes sense to me.

Sorry, I missed out the crucial word Army after Imperial to quote myself, RCVG has the Imperial Army equipped to TL 14 and TL15

 

[Micky]

I'm presuming that Marines in the high-threat sectors [the Marches, Solomani Rim, Old Expanses, etc.] are equipped to TL 14-15, while the regiments in the less threatened areas, [Gushemege, Fornast, etc.] are equipped to a slightly lesser standard. This syncs with the Navy capital ship deployments, so it makes sense to me.

How so? From my understanding.. from the Imperial Navy sourcebook and its detailing of the Tigress class. Every sector fleet was to have them.. at least one BatRon so they are spread out throughout the Imperium even the deepest and safest of sectors. Wisely one could say. In fact the innermost were the first to get them. High tech miltary hardware...in a way if you used the Navy as an example.. radiant outward from the core Imperium sectors.. not back inwards from its border sectors.

unless I've missed something in another book

 

[MasterGwydion]

How so? From my understanding.. from the Imperial Navy sourcebook and its detailing of the Tigress class. Every sector fleet was to have them.. at least one BatRon so they are spread out throughout the Imperium even the deepest and safest of sectors. Wisely one could say. In fact the innermost were the first to get them. High tech miltary hardware...in a way if you used the Navy as an example.. radiant outward from the core Imperium sectors.. not back inwards from its border sectors.

unless I've missed something in another book

Radiates outward from the Imperial Depots, usually one per Sector, not the core Imperium Sectors. The Depots are where they build most of those ships.

 

[ottarrus]

The IN has TL 14 battleships in backwater sectors. It has obsolescent TL 15 battleships even in high threat sectors [like the Marches].
Furthermore, the Marines aren't the only troops that get Battle Dress. Top-tier Army units equip their support gunners with up to date BD suits and P/FGMPs as well.
Lastly, a quick real-world factoid: The US Army is the most advanced and best equipped army on Earth, but there were troops deployed to Iraq carrying the M16A2 into the mid-2010, fully 15 years after the M4 became the standard issue weapon.
All these factors tell me that the Imperial Marines have the same logistical issues as the Navy insofar as high-TL equipment goes... Units in high threat zones get 'the good stuff' first and there are some backwater units that make do with older stuff until the production reaches them.

 

[Sigtrygg]

But they were not issued breech loading rifles a TL lower, or a flintlock rifle a TL lower than that.

 

[tytalan]

I use GT: Ground Forces as my model for Imperial ground troops. Here are the high points in re: the Marines

- The Marines are the Imperium's surgical strike team. They are the Pros from Mora, Personal Violence made manifest. Marine doctrine stresses aggression over finesse and applies that aggression at the fulcrum of the problem. Marines take very few prisoners because when they're done with what they do, there's very few bad guys left to surrender.
- Marine doctrine is as a striking force for in raids. It is long on teeth and short on tail. It has fewer artillery battalions and MUCH fewer vehicles. Most combat service support personnel [engineers, medical, chaplains, logistics, etc.] are Navy.
- Marines use a three battalion regiment model. Each battalion has 4 companies and a small HQ element. This will occasionally be augmented by a company of grav tanks from a Marine Armored Regiment. In standard rotation, one battalion is ashore providing garrisons, training, on leave, and available for emergency deployment, the second battalion is deployed on capital ships [either en masse aboard the squadron flagship or in companies divided among the ships of the squadron] and the third is broken up as ship's troops detachments on cruisers and the patrol vessels of the Reserve Fleets. These unit assignments change on an annual rotation basis.
- The Marines are equipped with the absolute best equipment that is available. That means TL 13-14 Battle Dress and Plasma Guns for the line Marines supported by several in TL 15 Battle Dress with Fusion Guns as support.
- All Marines are drop- and protected forces trained by definition, however they much prefer to deploy in Astrin GAPCs.
- The Marine Regiment is a combat formation and is designed to be deployed together.
- There are no Marine Divisions. The largest Marine unit deployed is the Marine Brigade, a group of two entire regiments with a battalion from Marine Armored. In a Bad War situation, the Marines are mostly deployed as battalions or regiments.

-I agree with this marines are stormtroopers/shocktroopers
-One of the reasons I don’t use GT is it completely ignores lore from Classic and Mega Traveller. While this is true of the US marines all the CT and MgT lore says that the Marines are completely self sufficient and have their out support units
-Same as the last one GT throws out existing lore
-Marines from lore are standardly equipped with TL 15 battledress and FGMP15 are the standard Rifle according to the lore
-I agree and will add that most Marine Field Units are either Armored Infantry or Calvary.
-I agree with the last two

Some points
1) GT is a alternate universe from the main Traveller universe this statement is supported by both Steven Jackson and Marc Miller as well as some significant changes to the setting (the most obvious one being no Rebellion but there are others)
2) Marc has stated in interviews that he based the imperium on the empire in Star Wars without the evil trappings. But the Imperium is supposed to be dystopian (tho it’s been steadily getting less so for the last 200 years) and the imperial marines were modeled after the Stormtroopers from Star Wars as they were supposed to be (Remember in Star Wars Ben points out that “Only Imperium Stormtroopers are that accurate “).

 

[MasterGwydion]

But they were not issued breech loading rifles a TL lower, or a flintlock rifle a TL lower than that.

Perhaps the Imperial Army works on the Roman Auxillary model of raising units from it's providences. Those troops are at whatever TL they are at, and they are the cannon-fodder to soften up the enemy for the actual Roman Legions (better trained and equipped Imperial Army units). Then you use the Imperial Marines as a shocktrooper. Wherever the fighting is the most brutal, that is where the IM are dropped from orbit like avenging angels to smite the enemies of the Empire! It is not Canon, as far as I am aware, but I really like that model for an Empire that is really to vast to be ruled effectively.

 

[Micky]

Radiates outward from the Imperial Depots, usually one per Sector, not the core Imperium Sectors. The Depots are where they build most of those ships.

ummm.. probably a no on that. Not in this case.. not in the case of the highest most sensitive tech level weaponry or systems the Imperium has for its military forces Only the Vargr and K'Kree have a compariable tech level to the Imperium at its highest levels and the Tigress or various sundry personal weapons, armor would be have production facilities that were safely . deep within the Imperium. Are the Spinward Marches producing Tigress class ships... very unlikely if one introduces the rare notion in many RPG's ...of plausibility and realistic action to a setting. While the Zhodani would be unlikely to take and hold the Spinward Marches short of total war and full mobilization on their part.. they could easily upon a full mobilization and attack by that is another subject or topic.. not the border skirmishes which pass as canon 'wars' where a slight fraction of each sides available power really takes part..... they probably could take such spinward depots and any shipbuilding facilities and mine them for closing that tech gap (15 v. 12 IIRC).. even if they would be eventually retaken once the full might of the Imperium was brought up from the core sectors to retake any captured systems but the damage would already have been done and any sensitive high tech.. already hauled off by the Zhodani and closed that tech gap between the two..

It makes sense once canon let it loose that the Tigress was first deployed .. and produced deep within the Imperium. not at its vulnerable fringes. Plus I'd have to dig deep but think there is canon mention that one of the Megacorps exclusively handles ship construction.. it realy isn't a Depot based Imperial navy based function. They maintain ships.. Gasbag builds them. The Megacorp... Gasbag IIRC... which is centered at the core of the imperium and would have its largest and most sensitive.. high tech.. ship building facilities safe and deep within the Imperium.

the point is I suppose if it is good for the Imperial Navy.. it works for the Marines and Army. The highest tech ... the most you want least to fall into the hands of an enemy.. are deep within the safety of the Imperium core... and thus radiate outward as they are produced, distributed and field tested.. a point the Imperial Navy sourcebook made a point of going into. By the time.. years later.. that the latest technology reaches the fringes and borders of the imperium.. it will have been field tested and improved upon working out the bugs through earlier versions. As I said.. high tech weaponry in the Imperium would be seen as starting inward and working it ways outward to the fringes.

 

[MasterGwydion]

ummm.. probably a no on that. Not in this case.. not in the case of the highest most sensitive tech level weaponry or systems the Imperium has for its military forces Only the Vargr and K'Kree have a compariable tech level to the Imperium at its highest levels and the Tigress or various sundry personal weapons, armor would be have production facilities that were safely . deep within the Imperium. Are the Spinward Marches producing Tigress class ships... very unlikely if one introduces the rare notion in many RPG's ...of plausibility and realistic action to a setting. While the Zhodani would be unlikely to take and hold the Spinward Marches short of total war and full mobilization on their part.. they could easily upon a full mobilization and attack by that is another subject or topic.. not the border skirmishes which pass as canon 'wars' where a slight fraction of each sides available power really takes part..... they probably could take such spinward depots and any shipbuilding facilities and mine them for closing that tech gap (15 v. 12 IIRC).. even if they would be eventually retaken once the full might of the Imperium was brought up from the core sectors to retake any captured systems but the damage would already have been done and any sensitive high tech.. already hauled off by the Zhodani and closed that tech gap between the two..

It makes sense once canon let it loose that the Tigress was first deployed .. and produced deep within the Imperium. not at its vulnerable fringes. Plus I'd have to dig deep but think there is canon mention that one of the Megacorps exclusively handles ship construction.. it realy isn't a Depot based Imperial navy based function. They maintain ships.. Gasbag builds them. The Megacorp... Gasbag IIRC... which is centered at the core of the imperium and would have its largest and most sensitive.. high tech.. ship building facilities safe and deep within the Imperium.

the point is I suppose if it is good for the Imperial Navy.. it works for the Marines and Army. The highest tech ... the most you want least to fall into the hands of an enemy.. are deep within the safety of the Imperium core... and thus radiate outward as they are produced, distributed and field tested.. a point the Imperial Navy sourcebook made a point of going into. By the time.. years later.. that the latest technology reaches the fringes and borders of the imperium.. it will have been field tested and improved upon working out the bugs through earlier versions. As I said.. high tech weaponry in the Imperium would be seen as starting inward and working it ways outward to the fringes.

Third Imperium, Mongoose Publishing 2021, pg. 13 "The Imperial Navy is a vast interstellar military force with bases spread throughout Imperial space. Most sectors have a Naval Depot, a dedicated star system where the navy’s starships are built and serviced."

Most Sectors have a star system called "Depot". These are the Depots that the book is talking about.

 

[Micky]

I can play that game..

The Imperial Navy Sourcebook.. pg 165

the Tigress class dreadnaught is only built in five yards in the whole of Imperial space. Far from the borders and subject to tight security

as you would think with any game changing high tech imperial weaponry or system. Again.. per common sense.. miltary high tech starts filtering outward from the safe, secure, and very high tech worlds at the core to the borders.. perfected and bugs worked out long before they might ever really come into direct combat action.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I can play that game..

The Imperial Navy Sourcebook.. pg 165

the Tigress class dreadnaught is only built in five yards in the whole of Imperial space. Far from the borders and subject to tight security

as you would think with any game changing high tech imperial weaponry or system. Again.. per common sense.. miltary high tech starts filtering outward from the safe, secure, and very high tech worlds at the core to the borders.. perfected and bugs worked out long before they might ever really come into direct combat action.

There are only 7 Depots capable of TL-15, so those two things are not mutually exclusive. This just means that the Tigress is only built at 5 of them. All of the TL-15 Depots that are not Deneb or Corridor are not in frontier areas. All Depots are considered heavily patrolled Red Zones. So, nothing in your quote, retcons anything in the quote from the Third Imperium book.

 

[Micky]

There are only 7 Depots capable of TL-15, so those two things are not mutually exclusive. This just means that the Tigress is only built at 5 of them. All of the TL-15 Depots that are not Deneb or Corridor are not in frontier areas. All Depots are considered heavily patrolled Red Zones. So, nothing in your quote, retcons anything in the quote from the Third Imperium book.

that assumes all naval construction is done ONLY at Depots... a quick search of the various sourcebooks blows that notion out of the water. GSbAG per the sector sourcebooks maintains military shipyards on many worlds that are NOT Depots. And with security being primary... one would naturally assume using that great thing called common sense they would have primary shipyards for such a vital ship design to be well away from prying eyes and all the traffic that passes through Naval Depots. A good example is the GSbAG owned system in the Dagudashaag Sector. An Amber zone system... enter close to their shipyards and testing facilities and you will be stopped and turned around at best or impounded at worst while you get waterboarded to ascertain who you are working for haha. That is what high security is worthy of protecting the secrets behind the high tech systems and weapons your enemies don't have but would love to have... and you don't get that a Naval Depot.

 

[WHULorigan]

. . . but also cries that it is lonely for its red covered Imperial and its olive-green Imperial Army sourcebooks that could go right next to it on our bookshelves . . .

Well, perhaps maroon covered . . . .
And make sure it gets a gold sunburst on the front.

And make sure the Imperial Army one gets a black sunburst (trimmed in silver?).

And it will need subsections on:​

1. Ground Force Command (GFC)
2. Close Orbit and Aerospace Control Command (COACC) - "Flyers"
3. Nautical Force Command (NFC) - "Wet Navy"

 

[Micky]

Well, perhaps maroon covered . . . . And make sure it gets a gold sunburst on the front.

And make sure the Imperial Army one gets a black sunburst (trimmed in silver?).

oh yes.. Maroon for sure!!! but I like the olive green motif..... the point is standing out on the bookshelf from the other Traveller books.

black spines x20. then bam...Blue, Maroon, Olive Green... before hitting another black x20 before getting to Drinax...

 

[WHULorigan]

but I like the olive green motif..... the point is standing out on the bookshelf from the other Traveller books.

So do I. I am just saying the SUNBURST on the front needs to be IMPERIAL ARMY BLACK (trimmed in silver to make it stand out a bit from the olive of the rest of the book-cover).