Foreven Sector

[captainjack23]

So, am I correct that most of the stuff on the web -such as the map of the imperial, etc, are essentially unofficial ? I note there are three or four references to planets in (cringe) canon sources (GDW -CT), but other than that is it just a big blank ?

Are the UWPs/sytem locations homebrewed , or are they part of some basic fill in of the area ?

How 'bout the history ?

 

[Deniable]

DonM's site has a page showing the sources of a lot of the data. There are bits of detail out there like some of the sectors that were detailed in Challenge, MT, TNE and so on. There's a lot of sector data in the archives at http://traveller.mu.org/ Accuracy checking is left as an exercise for the reader. (Hint: there's a lot of questionable stuff. I can't remember the exact story behind Genie or Sunbane data.)

Hope this helps.

 

[EDG]

Foreven is one sector spinward of the Spinward marches. It's about 1/3 to 1/2 Zhodani, and has a couple of big pocket empires in it (their origin is unknown).

See: http://travellermap.com/

It wasn't published in Atlas of the Imperium so its layout is a blank slate in terms of canon. The dot map on the travellermap.com site is entirely non-canon.

 

[captainjack23]

Foreven is one sector spinward of the Spinward marches. It's about 1/3 to 1/2 Zhodani, and has a couple of big pocket empires in it (their origin is unknown).

See: http://travellermap.com/

It wasn't published in Atlas of the Imperium so its layout is a blank slate in terms of canon. The dot map on the travellermap.com site is entirely non-canon.

YAY ! That answers that, quite nicely. Hamster wars here we come.......

 

[Vile]

I wonder what, if anything, previously published about Foreven will be considered immutable under the OTU license (not the Fan Policy)? The location is established in CT AM4 Zhodani, and the old CT Map of the Imperium shows the borders of the Zhodani Consulate covering the coreward half of the sector and portions of two human client states in the rimward half. I don't off-hand know of any other instances in official publications.

Now, it sounds like the location in space of Foreven is not fixed - does this only refer to Fan Policy, or also OTU License? If the former, then authors of licensed products also have to consider what is going on around Foreven, such as the Spinward Marches to trailing and The Beyond (with Aslan furries) to rimward.

Just speculating, of course.

 

[EDG]

Now, it sounds like the location in space of Foreven is not fixed

The name "Foreven" specifies the sector directly to spinward of the Spinward Marches though, which sounds very much to me as if "the location in space" of Foreven is fixed. Otherwise they wouldn't have referred to it with that name.

 

[Vile]

Yes, that would be the implication, but Matt's post elsewhere seems to suggest that, in some unspecified cases, it can be anywhere. Once again one of those things to wait for further clarification on.

Anyway, my speculation is based on the premise that Foreven is where we all think it is, to the left of Spinward Marches. So, if an OTU licensee (as opposed to a Fan Policy writer) were to publish anything set in Foreven Sector, he or she would do well to consider what is going on outside the border in order to make his or her product useful with a minimum of adaption by referees of games set in the MGT OTU - especially if there are going to be any campaigns or players crossing over from the Spinward Marches.

 

[Deniable]

A couple of points:

I've missed the 'Fan policy.' Do you have a link for that one?

Foreven is detailed to the level of a sector map with star locations on it. (Imperial Lines #1,) however, Matt seems to be indicating that you can do what you like with it, including moving it somewhere else. So, we're stuck with canon, or we're not.

 

[captainjack23]

A couple of points:

I've missed the 'Fan policy.' Do you have a link for that one?

Hmmm sarcasm ? Nah.

It doesn't exist yet. I was curious what was already defined for the sector, and the "I don't like this because of a b, and c that I haven't seen yet" spilled over here.

See the way end of the developers pack thread...the bits by Msprague have some info....of an actual nature.

 

[Imperator58]

Traveller is not a new game. I'm not meaning to seem condescending here; what I mean is, there is a VAST body of archival material in which, among other things, huge numbers of sectors, subsectors & planets have been fully detailed. Pretty sure Foreven is one of them.
In fact, I still have the older Megatraveller books in which I've highlighted all the detailed sectors I've come across. These include both maps and UPPs. There are definitely a lot! But there still remain a lot of holes, too. The Traveller universe is an immense place - nothing else like it in all of gaming.
To answer the original question, though, any subsectors you come across are likely (not guaranteed, but likely) to be canon.

 

[captainjack23]

Traveller is not a new game. I'm not meaning to seem condescending here; what I mean is, there is a VAST body of archival material in which, among other things, huge numbers of sectors, subsectors & planets have been fully detailed. Pretty sure Foreven is one of them.
In fact, I still have the older Megatraveller books in which I've highlighted all the detailed sectors I've come across. These include both maps and UPPs. There are definitely a lot! But there still remain a lot of holes, too. The Traveller universe is an immense place - nothing else like it in all of gaming.
To answer the original question, though, any subsectors you come across are likely (not guaranteed, but likely) to be canon.

Thanks - Actually, from the sources I can find (now that I'm out from behind a firewall) it looks like what is on the web (Zho berka, the map of the imperium, some other MTU sites -ace and the dog, IIRC) for Foreven is kind of consensus pseudo canon - it looks like the systems and UWP values are all from the Sunbane list and other participants (Gypsy comet for one ) - which while detailed are probably not strictly canon - but are, now, a pretty good third party writeup !

From what I've gathered (and thanks for the help) two or three references in the Charmax adventures, possibly a JTAS or Challenege adventure, and a very brief mention in the Zohodani book -which includes a map noting about 1/4 of the sectors along the core edge are behind the happy curtain.....

 

[Stuie]

Traveller is not a new game. I'm not meaning to seem condescending here; what I mean is, there is a VAST body of archival material in which, among other things, huge numbers of sectors, subsectors & planets have been fully detailed. Pretty sure Foreven is one of them.
In fact, I still have the older Megatraveller books in which I've highlighted all the detailed sectors I've come across. These include both maps and UPPs. There are definitely a lot! But there still remain a lot of holes, too. The Traveller universe is an immense place - nothing else like it in all of gaming.
To answer the original question, though, any subsectors you come across are likely (not guaranteed, but likely) to be canon.

Depends on where you get your canon. There was a GDW book that stated "Foreven will never be published" (or some such) so that the individual referee could develop the sector as he/she saw fit. Then Paranoia press published a version, and then Atlas of the Imperium published a version, etc. So what's "canon"? As always, I fall into the "individual referee" camp - do what YOU want.

Edit: The Paranoia Press sector books were crap in my opinion.

 

[EDG]

Thanks - Actually, from the sources I can find (now that I'm out from behind a firewall) it looks like what is on the web (Zho berka, the map of the imperium, some other MTU sites -ace and the dog, IIRC) for Foreven is kind of consensus pseudo canon - it looks like the systems and UWP values are all from the Sunbane list and other participants (Gypsy comet for one ) - which while detailed are probably not strictly canon - but are, now, a pretty good third party writeup !

From what I've gathered (and thanks for the help) two or three references in the Charmax adventures, possibly a JTAS or Challenege adventure, and a very brief mention in the Zohodani book -which includes a map noting about 1/4 of the sectors along the core edge are behind the happy curtain.....

In terms of system layout within sectors, Atlas of the Imperium defined the original canon for a rectangular grid of sector that goes from Spinward Marches in the top left diagonally down to Spica in the bottom right. Though AotI didn't give UWPs, it does give enough material to be annoyingly restrictive (presence of a system, starport type, whether the world is hipop or water covered, and GGs and I think Base presence too).

The Zho, Aslan, K'Kree, Vargr, and Hivers CT Alien modules gave us sector names for a lot of the sectors in and around the alien territories, but only the Vargr book presented a new sector map and full UWPs (for Gvurrdon, the sector immediately coreward of the Marches).

Any canon sectors outside that depend on the publication - if it was in a licensed Traveller product then it's probably canon. As far as I'm aware though everything outside of that grid of sectors isn't official canon - I don't think anything has ever been published outside that AotI grid anyway. The Sunbane/GENII UWPs beyond that are completely non-canonical and mostly garbage anyway, and I suspect that's what travellermap.com draws its UWPs and dotmaps from.

 

[klingsor]

A blank sector is a jolly useful thing to have for your own invention.

My brother tells me TSR did something similar, leaving one country in Greyhawk (I think) blank for the DM's plaything, a great idea, then made a lot of people quite cross when they put something there!

 

[captainjack23]

Depends on where you get your canon. There was a GDW book that stated "Foreven will never be published" (or some such) so that the individual referee could develop the sector as he/she saw fit. Then Paranoia press published a version, and then Atlas of the Imperium published a version, etc. So what's "canon"? As always, I fall into the "individual referee" camp - do what YOU want.

Edit: The Paranoia Press sector books were crap in my opinion.

Without joining in the crap labeling contest I'd just like to ask why it seems impossible to just say "I don't like it" , or has "lots of errors" . Does being insulting and provocative really make the point more accurate ?

That said, and as an example, your comment has some errors: The atlas doesn't include Foreven; and the Paranoia subsectors -Beyond and Vanguard weren't in Foreven. A honest mistake ? Or is it Crap ?

 

[EDG]

Does being insulting and provocative really make the point more accurate ?

Can we just stick to discussing Foreven sector here instead of questioning peoples' opinions? It really isn't worth derailing the thread over this.

That said, and as an example, your comment has some errors: The atlas doesn't include Foreven; and the Paranoia subsectors -Beyond and Vanguard weren't in Foreven. A honest mistake ? Or is it Crap ?

An error on his part, I suspect. PP did The Beyond and Vanguard Reaches, and those were both sectors - but they weren't Foreven.

Getting back on topic, I'm pretty sure I recall seeing mention that Foreven was deliberately left as a "GM Preserve" back in the day. So I'd be surprised if anything ever did get published there.

 

[captainjack23]

Does being insulting and provocative really make the point more accurate ?

Can we just stick to discussing Foreven sector here instead of questioning peoples' opinions? It really isn't worth derailing the thread over this.

Note that this is not a "complain to the admin type personal attack", but rather a response to your implied contention that my question is irrelevant to the topic that I started. It is relevent, and here's why.

This was a request for information; so when peoples responses are couched in scatalogical emotive bombast, it makes me wonder to what extent accuracy is being sacrificed for drama; which is really what derails an information thread.

So, how bout this. Crap is excrement, and Garbage is household waste ; unless the point is that the Paranoia suppliements are actually printed on poo, how bout we stick to meaningful answers to questions, or at least ones that don't have propagandistic, insulting underpinnings ?

In neither case do we have any actual information about the quality of the works, or why they are lacking, except (apparently) the expert opinions of sanitation engineers. That is derailing a thread.


Still, I'll leave it there with regards to your opinion of my opinion, as I have little hope of any kind of agreement with you. Which is why I addressed the comment generally, and quoted someone else for context. Feel free to assume that nothing I say is addressed to you unless it is in fact addressed to you. You are not my target audience. Besides, you are publicly "not reading my posts anymore", which is just fine for both of us.

So, to the rest, can we just stick to substantive answers and not hyperbole and drama ? We have an election year in progress here, so its a bit hard to have it in ones hobby, too. Thats all I'll say in the matter. Thanks, and we continue with "where the heck is Foreven, and what is in it ?"

 

[captainjack23]

So, from the Zhodani module, it looks like their subsectors in Foreven are the high tide of their expansion - the line seems to have been constant since just before year 0, in fact most Zhodani exploration is coreward, and most expansion has been stopped by explicit policy; so the Zhod strings are probably pretty light. It's administered as part of the Zhod "county" that deals with the imperial contact zone.

Suggested date of imperial settlements seems to be about 300-500, but its unclear what that means.

The five sisters sector, which is right up against it, was historically explored in the 160's, and settled enough that the frontier wars stagnated further development - presumably, that would include incursions into Foreven.

Both Zhodani and Imperials have pushed for client state influence in the area, the zhodani more successfully, but basically its a stagnant area in terms of the great game.

This all from the CT Zhodani Aliens module.

It's a pretty good choice for spinward homebrew - Zhodanis, Vargr, Aslan are all reasonable - as are spinward marches type aliens, personalities, adventures and adventurers.

The Genie/Sunbane data is sort of a default addition; some think it's good, others not; regardless, they probably aren't open content unless the developers said soI think that means that the stellar/sytem locations are unspecified, and I'm guessing that given its general distance and stagnation, it'll all be declared essentially decanonized - or essentially ignorable; it really will have little or no effect on the OTU.

So, it's essentially 16 subsectors just next to the spinward marches which can be used commercially as the OTU, or used as a generic location for odd adventures, which may or may not be closely related to the OTU.

Obviously, limits on Non-OTU development isn't an issue here -that is covered by OGL.


I do think it would be nice if there were a "trailing" fan preserve, too, as the comments about OTU development are correct about developing those races and polities. But, perhaps that's for later.



-

 

[Klaus Kipling]

I do think it would be nice if there were a "trailing" fan preserve, too, as the comments about OTU development are correct about developing those races and polities. But, perhaps that's for later.
-

I'd second that!

 

[Vile]

A blank sector is a jolly useful thing to have for your own invention.

My brother tells me TSR did something similar, leaving one country in Greyhawk (I think) blank for the DM's plaything, a great idea, then made a lot of people quite cross when they put something there!

It's odd how, given that there is a whole game world for which any number of supplements could be created, publishers seem to have a habit of producing stuff for those areas the said they were going to leave blank ... :roll:

If that happened with Greyhawk, then that makes two cases I know of where 'blank lands' were designated and then published regardless - the same thing happened with the RuneQuest setting, Glorantha. Here's hoping that the same thing doesn't happen to Foreven - third time's the charm, as they say! :wink:

On a more serious note, I hope some references to Foreven canon will be included in the OTU License for the benefit of third-party publishers, so it becomes easier to hunt down those instances and integrate them into their products. Looking back over this thread, it seems that actual references to specific books which mention Foreven are hard to find. For the Fan Policy, of course, anything goes.