Updated Vehicle Handbook in the works

[J. L. Brown]

So, a question about armor - it's actually more than just the plate itself, at least for heavier armor factors. Basic ballistic protection can be provided via layering (i.e. a bulletproof vest, or say cockpit protection for pilots). However when you get into naval armor or anything designed to protect against larger shells you have to take into account an underlying structure to both support the armor as well as safely channel the energy away from the impact point so the armor doesn't collapse and you respect the laws of physics.

As armor protection goes up you should be paying a larger penalty for it. Traveller doesn't care about weight/mass, just spaces. If you scale the spacing up this should also help eliminate the rules allowing a 50 dton fighter to have the same level of armor protection as a 100,000 dton dreadnought. It would also mean that smaller ships just could not afford to have the same levels of protection that larger ships do becuase realistically they cannot afford the space cost.

A totally aside question - I recently saw a video on the old Fairey rotodyne (compound gyrocopter). It's probably too niche to have a rule for, but would the rules be capable of allowing for odd vehicles of this type? I recall that Traveller 2300 had the X-wing concept, which would have been a more modernized version of the rotodyne I suppose.

High Guard Update 2023, p 12 has this:

Military Hull: By increasing the cost of a hull by +25%, a ship may install armour up to double its standard rating. For example, a non-military hull made of bonded superdense has a maximum armour value equal to the Tech Level of the ship, as described in the Hull Armour table on page 13. However, a ship with a military hull may add up to double that value in armour. Military hulls can only be applied to capital ships (greater than 5,000 tons) and can stack with the reinforced hull option.

Although honestly, I tend to think that something along the lines of the 'Pressure Hull' option makes more sense to represent the internal bracing required for the higher levels of armor. But those prices (in terms of credits and volume) are ridiculously high, and not related to TL; which seems odd.

 

[MasterGwydion]

So, a question about armor - it's actually more than just the plate itself, at least for heavier armor factors. Basic ballistic protection can be provided via layering (i.e. a bulletproof vest, or say cockpit protection for pilots). However when you get into naval armor or anything designed to protect against larger shells you have to take into account an underlying structure to both support the armor as well as safely channel the energy away from the impact point so the armor doesn't collapse and you respect the laws of physics.

As armor protection goes up you should be paying a larger penalty for it. Traveller doesn't care about weight/mass, just spaces. If you scale the spacing up this should also help eliminate the rules allowing a 50 dton fighter to have the same level of armor protection as a 100,000 dton dreadnought. It would also mean that smaller ships just could not afford to have the same levels of protection that larger ships do becuase realistically they cannot afford the space cost.

A totally aside question - I recently saw a video on the old Fairey rotodyne (compound gyrocopter). It's probably too niche to have a rule for, but would the rules be capable of allowing for odd vehicles of this type? I recall that Traveller 2300 had the X-wing concept, which would have been a more modernized version of the rotodyne I suppose.

This is already in the ship rules for armor.

HG pg 13

 

[tytalan]

I'll repeat my critique since 1980, equating Trav TLs to historical eras in printed material was a Bad Idea (TM).

It would have been far better (and saved endless electrons of arguments over the decades) if they had stuck with clear technological progress breakpoints. We aren't playing Earth, we're playing a distant far-flung stellar civilization in the 57th Century. Just tell us what the breakpoints are - e.g. TL6 in the charted space setting is achieved when you master nuclear fission. TL8 is reached when you master fusion (not/not fusion+ mind) and grav technology. TL8 doesn't mean Earth 1980-89.

Anyway, that didn't happen and we were stuck with the somewhat lame "tech level labels in terms of historical dating are intended as a guide only" (The Traveller Book page 85). So continue....

That would be a good ideal if there was actually a good clean break. Like in your example what is mastering nuclear fission. Is it the nuclear bomb, 1st Gen nuclear power plants, or nuclear coupler tech? And what if a world has jump drive but not fusion power? Unfortunately neither system works well.

 

[Sigtrygg]

1st generation nuclear power plants were on the drawing board then WWII kicked off, the program was then weaponised.

Jump drive could be discovered and powered by collectors with fission and fusion never developed.

It could go like this. Chemical rockets to get into orbit, plasma and ion engines for developing the system infrastructure. Light sails and lasers to move ships up to fractional c to get to nearby systems and to move stuff around the home system. The jump drive and collector technology are developed in tandem.

 

[MasterGwydion]

1st generation nuclear power plants were on the drawing board then WWII kicked off, the program was then weaponised.

Jump drive could be discovered and powered by collectors with fission and fusion never developed.

It could go like this. Chemical rockets to get into orbit, plasma and ion engines for developing the system infrastructure. Light sails and lasers to move ships up to fractional c to get to nearby systems and to move stuff around the home system. The jump drive and collector technology are developed in tandem.

Agreed. So, any change from what We have now is likely to be no better and no clearer than what We have currently. lol

 

[Sigtrygg]

But adds to the verisimilitude of the setting...

we know there are advanced cultures that never discovered jump.

 

[J. L. Brown]

That would be a good ideal if there was actually a good clean break. Like in your example what is mastering nuclear fission. Is it the nuclear bomb, 1st Gen nuclear power plants, or nuclear coupler tech? And what if a world has jump drive but not fusion power? Unfortunately neither system works well.

Nah; we just need to quit equating 'Tech Level' with equivalent Terran-era stuff. Just define the performance, and insert makeupanameium to 'explain' the performance increase. Sure, humans went from human-muscle, to human-muscle-augmented-with-leverage, to animal-muscle, to wind and flowing water, to steam, etc... but all of that is unimportant. What matters is that each of those things represented an increase in performance. Other worlds, other cultures, other species might find different breakthroughs -- but those breakthroughs will have a certain amount of performance, no matter what they are called.

Define a base performance, and a given increase in performance per TL, and extrapolate for zero to infinity. Hang labels on it afterwards, if necessary.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Nah; we just need to quit equating 'Tech Level' with equivalent Terran-era stuff. Just define the performance, and insert makeupanameium to 'explain' the performance increase. Sure, humans went from human-muscle, to human-muscle-augmented-with-leverage, to animal-muscle, to wind and flowing water, to steam, etc... but all of that is unimportant. What matters is that each of those things represented an increase in performance. Other worlds, other cultures, other species might find different breakthroughs -- but those breakthroughs will have a certain amount of performance, no matter what they are called.

Define a base performance, and a given increase in performance per TL, and extrapolate for zero to infinity. Hang labels on it afterwards, if necessary.

The problem with this as opposed to the current system is that people can look at the current system and basically understand what the level of technological advancement is, using examples from Earth history. Take that away and say the TLs are an increase in productivity? That tells players and referees nothing in how a world looks or functions. No does it say anything about when different pieces of technology become available. What will you use TL for if it can no longer do any of these things?

 

[tytalan]

Nah; we just need to quit equating 'Tech Level' with equivalent Terran-era stuff. Just define the performance, and insert makeupanameium to 'explain' the performance increase. Sure, humans went from human-muscle, to human-muscle-augmented-with-leverage, to animal-muscle, to wind and flowing water, to steam, etc... but all of that is unimportant. What matters is that each of those things represented an increase in performance. Other worlds, other cultures, other species might find different breakthroughs -- but those breakthroughs will have a certain amount of performance, no matter what they are called.

Define a base performance, and a given increase in performance per TL, and extrapolate for zero to infinity. Hang labels on it afterwards, if necessary.

Why massively complicate things for a RPG? The majority of players don’t want things that complex. Examples drawn from earths history helps people understand and visualize the different tech levels.

 

[J. L. Brown]

The problem with this as opposed to the current system is that people can look at the current system and basically understand what the level of technological advancement is, using examples from Earth history. Take that away and say the TLs are an increase in productivity? That tells players and referees nothing in how a world looks or functions. No does it say anything about when different pieces of technology become available. What will you use TL for if it can no longer do any of these things?

The last step is 'Hang labels on it as necessary'; this is already done for TLs 1-7 using Terra-age equivalents -- those labels are great, but the point is they are descriptive not prescriptive. There is a TL where Terrans used Bronze; that is not 'the Bronze Age TL'. The important bit was not what we called it, or the particular mix of metals -- it was the increase in performance that mattered. Other worlds might get to the same sophistication in other ways.

Telling the players and referee that each TL represents specifically defined performance is exactly 'how the world works or functions'. Who cares if some weird material is 'Coherent Superdense' or 'Bonded Superdense'? That is just makeupananmeium -- the part that matters is what that stuff actually does in the game; and the game rules spell out exactly how (in game terms) these are better materials for armor than stuff at lower Technology Levels. Swap out the made up names, and it does not matter in the least -- it is the performance that players and referees need.

 

[Arkathan]

TL8 doesn't mean Earth 1980-89.

To be fair, from 1980-89, we were claiming a fairly recent TL7.

 

[MasterGwydion]

The last step is 'Hang labels on it as necessary'; this is already done for TLs 1-7 using Terra-age equivalents -- those labels are great, but the point is they are descriptive not prescriptive. There is a TL where Terrans used Bronze; that is not 'the Bronze Age TL'. The important bit was not what we called it, or the particular mix of metals -- it was the increase in performance that mattered. Other worlds might get to the same sophistication in other ways.

When talking about it though, it is important what We call it or no one will understand what you are talking about.

Telling the players and referee that each TL represents specifically defined performance is exactly 'how the world works or functions'. Who cares if some weird material is 'Coherent Superdense' or 'Bonded Superdense'? That is just makeupananmeium -- the part that matters is what that stuff actually does in the game; and the game rules spell out exactly how (in game terms) these are better materials for armor than stuff at lower Technology Levels. Swap out the made up names, and it does not matter in the least -- it is the performance that players and referees need.

You are right. If you swap out made up names, it changes nothing. So, why change it? Unless you want your TL to include magic and psionics as well? That would make more sense, but it doesn't feel much like Traveller. Or Steampunk? This could be very much Traveller, but basically every Steampunk machine would be considered a TL-5 or TL-6 prototype-style design using TL-4 materials technology. So, this is already baked into the rules. What are you guys actually trying to accomplish here? Last time I tried to tackle the meaning of TL everyone jumped on Me and said that TL means infrastructure, or local manufacturing capacity, or that it means nothing at all and is just a general guideline. In this case you seem to be equating increase in performance as Technology which may not be true. You can selectively breed animals for specific traits that you want with zero technology and have a massive increase in performance. So, TL cannot be tied strictly to increased performance either. Which again makes Me wonder, what is the goal here? What target are you all trying for?

 

[tytalan]

Telling the players and referee that each TL represents specifically defined performance is exactly 'how the world works or functions'. Who cares if some weird material is 'Coherent Superdense' or 'Bonded Superdense'? That is just makeupananmeium -- the part that matters is what that stuff actually does in the game; and the game rules spell out exactly how (in game terms) these are better materials for armor than stuff at lower Technology Levels. Swap out the made up names, and it does not matter in the least -- it is the performance that players and referees need.

Only if this was a war game. Your whole concept is to literally take the RP out of the game as well as ignoring different characteristics of tech. By your concept why bother with call a beam laser instead call it energy weapon TL 9. While what the thing does in game is importance so is the RP explanation of it.

 

[J. L. Brown]

When talking about it though, it is important what We call it or no one will understand what you are talking about.

You are right. If you swap out made up names, it changes nothing. So, why change it? Unless you want your TL to include magic and psionics as well? That would make more sense, but it doesn't feel much like Traveller.

You are still focused on the names, not the capabilities; why do you care so much about the fluff? What is so important that the 'Hop', 'Skip', 'Vault', 'Leap', and 'Bound' drives have those particular labels? It is all made-up imaginary space-magic anyway. What is important is the capabilities, and there is nothing inherently special about the names -- and calling a drive 'the Six-Drive' is exactly descriptive of it covering 10^6 parsecs more than a Jump Drive. If it works in your games because of extremely oddly colored space-hamsters, or psionically attuned Zocci Crystals, or sacred Mechanus Runes properly anointed with Holy Oil & invoked via pious prayer, then so be it.

In this case you seem to be equating increase in performance as Technology which may not be true.

That higher tech == better capabilities is absolutely axiomatic. If it is not true, then TL is meaningless.

You can selectively breed animals for specific traits that you want with zero technology and have a massive increase in performance. So, TL cannot be tied strictly to increased performance either. Which again makes Me wonder, what is the goal here? What target are you all trying for?

Higher tech animals is just more fluff. Are those a newer, more exotically-colored space hamsters? Who cares? That is fluff; made up names -- what matters is the capability. If you have massively more capability, then you have better tools as a result of better technology -- maybe just one more level, or maybe several, depending on how much the capabilities are improved.

Any which way you want to imagine it, and no matter what flavor you want in the fluff, what matters is the in-game effect -- the performance of the 'stuff'. Since the game mechanics are expressed as skill rolls on dice, hit (or hull) points, mass, volume, power, & etc, & etc there are already numbers available to define exactly what 'Higher Tech' means. Just use the assets already in the game to make it clear what constitutes the break-point to a new TL, and make up a particular 'orthogonality hyper-chartreuse space-hamster', or some other label to hang on it. The label does not really matter.

Right now we are stuck waiting around for the secret high council of Impressive Traveller Beards to tell us that 2054 (or 2173) will be The Year to define what the beginning of TL 8 (or TL 9) 'is' -- and that is arbitrary nonsense that absolutely does NOT work for TLs we have never experienced. And, more importantly from a game perspective, is that it tells us absolutely nothing useful about how 'stuff at a particular TL' actually interacts with the rules.

 

[MasterGwydion]

You are still focused on the names, not the capabilities; why do you care so much about the fluff? What is so important that the 'Hop', 'Skip', 'Vault', 'Leap', and 'Bound' drives have those particular labels? It is all made-up imaginary space-magic anyway. What is important is the capabilities, and there is nothing inherently special about the names -- and calling a drive 'the Six-Drive' is exactly descriptive of it covering 10^6 parsecs more than a Jump Drive. If it works in your games because of extremely oddly colored space-hamsters, or psionically attuned Zocci Crystals, or sacred Mechanus Runes properly anointed with Holy Oil & invoked via pious prayer, then so be it.


That higher tech == better capabilities is absolutely axiomatic. If it is not true, then TL is meaningless.

Currently TL is meaningless, as all of you have already told Me. Changing the labels, changes nothing. As I said, call things what you like.

Higher tech animals is just more fluff. Are those a newer, more exotically-colored space hamsters? Who cares? That is fluff; made up names -- what matters is the capability. If you have massively more capability, then you have better tools as a result of better technology -- maybe just one more level, or maybe several, depending on how much the capabilities are improved.

How is a selectively bred animal considered higher technology? Does that mean that natural evolution is technology as well? What is your baseline? An ape? A wolf? An ameoba? What is your TL-0?

Any which way you want to imagine it, and no matter what flavor you want in the fluff, what matters is the in-game effect -- the performance of the 'stuff'. Since the game mechanics are expressed as skill rolls on dice, hit (or hull) points, mass, volume, power, & etc, & etc there are already numbers available to define exactly what 'Higher Tech' means. Just use the assets already in the game to make it clear what constitutes the break-point to a new TL, and make up a particular 'orthogonality hyper-chartreuse space-hamster', or some other label to hang on it. The label does not really matter.

What is an example of this so that I can understand better?

Right now we are stuck waiting around for the secret high council of Impressive Traveller Beards to tell us that 2054 (or 2173) will be The Year to define what the beginning of TL 8 (or TL 9) 'is' -- and that is arbitrary nonsense that absolutely does NOT work for TLs we have never experienced. And, more importantly from a game perspective, is that it tells us absolutely nothing useful about how 'stuff at a particular TL' actually interacts with the rules.

Pretty sure that this is already written in the lore, but okay. TLs have always been arbitrary nonsense. They are assigned in-game by some bored scout in a scout ship and out of game based on a terran-centric world view. Actually everything is Traveller is Terran-centric. As you all have pointed out, Traveller is not a simulation, most things do not interact with the rules until the Referee makes up said interaction with how they decide to use a "thing". T5 tried to make thing makers, and that sounds a lot like what you are looking for, but that system is a mess.

The sad reality is this. All defined "Eras" are arbitrary. When was the Bronze Age? The Iron Age? What years exactly? See? All arbitrary. It is just one person deciding that this is what it is and other people agreeing with them.

 

[tytalan]

J. L. Brown what’s funny is you got things mixed up. As we advance in technology it allows to create more effective infrastructure which increases productivity. One of the main reasons that so many of us and even the core rule book says that tech level is a measure of infrastructure “The Tech Level measures the average technology presence on the planet and gives an idea of local production and repair capability. Trade with offworlders may bring in advanced technology; on average, a rich individual can afford technology two or more levels higher than the planetary average. The government may also have access to higher-technology items.” CRB 2022 pg 258. You got your cause and effect mixed up. Cause: the technology infrastructure is raised. Effect: productivity increases.

As for not using earth time frames as a reference that’s a RP tool you know as in RPG. I’m beginning to think that some of you are forgetting this is a Role Playing Game and in the end the game mechanics are there only to support the Role Play nothing more nothing less.

 

[tytalan]

The sad reality is this. All defined "Eras" are arbitrary. When was the Bronze Age? The Iron Age? What years exactly? See? All arbitrary. It is just one person deciding that this is what it is and other people agreeing with them.

Your absolutely right the Eras are arbitrary based on the technology available in general in certain key areas which at that time frame are considered the most advanced civilization. In some cases maybe many of them these civilizations happen to be the ones we have some details about.

But as a RPG these Eras/Ages are good references simply because we have so information and can create a reference using that information. We have some ideal what things were like durning the Bronze Age so we can use that as a RP reference for example. If we use J. L. Brown’s ideal we lose those references

 

[Terry Mixon]

Your absolutely right the Eras are arbitrary based on the technology available in general in certain key areas which at that time frame are considered the most advanced civilization. In some cases maybe many of them these civilizations happen to be the ones we have some details about.

But as a RPG these Eras/Ages are good references simply because we have so information and can create a reference using that information. We have some ideal what things were like durning the Bronze Age so we can use that as a RP reference for example. If we use J. L. Brown’s ideal we lose those references

Agreed. We humans need those frames of reference. We can see things better when we can have something concrete to judge by.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Agreed. We humans need those frames of reference. We can see things better when we can have something concrete to judge by.

This was the same argument others made when I suggested getting rid of real-world measurements for Traveller. Perhaps they were right and I was not. Damn! I hate being wrong.

 

[Terry Mixon]

This was the same argument others made when I suggested getting rid of real-world measurements for Traveller. Perhaps they were right and I was not. Damn! I hate being wrong.

Everyone is different. They might not be right for you, and that’s cool.