MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
True, but in this case, I think I was wrong, as most people do need a familiar point of reference for many things in order to be able to relate to them.
Updated Vehicle Handbook in the works
- Thread starter Geir
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collins355
Cosmic Mongoose
Acknowledge the "frames of reference" point - but half of the Traveller TLs have no frame of reference as they're all in the future and are distinguished solely by the technology the game says they encompass. So I'm not wholly convinced we need the dates for the other half.
But of course, YMMV and that's fine.
But of course, YMMV and that's fine.
Geir
Emperor Mongoose
The only reason I put in dates (or really eras) for past Tech Levels is to check my own work for consistency, but that's about the past - the future is uncertain. For as long as I've been playing the game we've been TL7 leaning towards 8, but 8 has some things we're close but not there with (fusion - no really just twenty more years, honest this time) and things that are still in the realm of impossiblity (gravitics) so I certainly don't want to put dates on that.
I forget which thread it's in, but the point about future ages not having sufficient definition (TL12 gives us "mesons" and j-3 but so what? - other than a means to defeat the First Imperium). I'm certain we'll once again be caught flatfooted on computers, but not sure what path it will take (is Artificial General Intelligence a few years, decades, or centuries in the future? - hard to say when a multi-megawatt data center still can't do what a 20 watt brain can).
I am a little concerned that Traveller is hueing too close to being just a thing for the Third Imperium, not a thing for multiple universes, so I'm throwing in some things (like TL12 vacuum dirigibles) that make little sense if we hue to the straight tech level progression.
I'm a Civilization player since way back (although I only like the odd version numbers) but the tech tree I like the best is the web-like one they did for Beyond Earth (which I cannot get to work on any Windows 10 machine, much to my annoyance). Alternate tech trees with multiple prerequisites would be more fun, but to reinvent the future would be to separate more from the 3I thrust of most of the material. Not that that's a bad thing. But it is a different thing. In my own future history universe I have FTL at TL12 (with antimatter and no week in jump space) and gravitics at TL13, but to do that would be an entirely different thing.
Also, that list is very Eurocentric. Lots of technologies were invented at different rates in different parts of the world.
Just a simple example is the fire piston. They were in use in Australia & Southeast Asia by the first century CE, but they weren't figured out in Europe until the 18th century.
There just isn't a uniform progression of technology. Different cultures around Earth developed various techs at different stages. And aliens with entirely different environments and thought processes will likely do things differently as well. This is why I like the categories of techs in the World Builder's Handbook. So your TL 7 world will have various techs generally around that level, but some categories might be better and others worse.
Not to mention some specific techs like jump drives and fusion plus are considered to not be part of the TL system. Per Traveller rules, it is entirely possible to advance to high TL without learning Jump Drive. The Kursae and various other societies did so.
I particularly don't like associating TLs with specific earth eras because it brings a lot of cultural baggage with it. Just because we used muskets and early industrialization a certain way doesn't mean that's what it will look like in another world. Whether that world developed from scratch or sank back from a higher TL alone would make a big difference.
Just a simple example is the fire piston. They were in use in Australia & Southeast Asia by the first century CE, but they weren't figured out in Europe until the 18th century.
There just isn't a uniform progression of technology. Different cultures around Earth developed various techs at different stages. And aliens with entirely different environments and thought processes will likely do things differently as well. This is why I like the categories of techs in the World Builder's Handbook. So your TL 7 world will have various techs generally around that level, but some categories might be better and others worse.
Not to mention some specific techs like jump drives and fusion plus are considered to not be part of the TL system. Per Traveller rules, it is entirely possible to advance to high TL without learning Jump Drive. The Kursae and various other societies did so.
I particularly don't like associating TLs with specific earth eras because it brings a lot of cultural baggage with it. Just because we used muskets and early industrialization a certain way doesn't mean that's what it will look like in another world. Whether that world developed from scratch or sank back from a higher TL alone would make a big difference.
You have to set it to run as a earlier edition tho to be honest it works better with 11
While this is true your missing the point that these eras are an example to give a framework not a prison that has to be followed exactly.
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
TL is euro-centric. UWPs are humanocentric. Ship design rules are entirely written for human-sized and shaped sophonts. Every computer is literally designed to be familiar to Earth humans of Our era. Even the terminology used in Traveller computers is 1970s Earth Human. Literally, the whole game of Traveller is like this. They even got rid of race specific government types for the Aslan. So, literally everything is Traveller is biased towards humans with euro-centric educations. This is just how the game is. It could be changed, but then I am not sure that it would still be Traveller.
My previous post wasn't a reply to yours. I wrote it at the same time you did this one.
I will say that I agree with this quite a bit. The TL should ideally be structured so we can fit the pentapods in there. It should give some weird stuff. That's obviously not particularly a task for a Vehicle handbook, though putting some things like that in probably wouldn't hurt.
As an aside, I also push FTL back to around TL 11ish and full anti grav to around 13/14. I like having a longer era of slower than light exploration. And I don't like lifters being everywhere immediately. No idea if it makes any sense, but I do have 'deckplates' of artificial 'down' around TL11 because that's the kind of ships that my players like and most of the sci fi world designs
It's all space magic so I figure breaking it up doesn't cause a problem.J. L. Brown
Emperor Mongoose
Bleah; ease up on the nihilism. I have not told you that TL are meaningless; just that the current way Traveller defines is inconsistent and not terribly useful. I do not care what 'everyone has told you'; you are having this discussion with me, not them.
My base TL-0 is a single, lone naked and unskilled human.
Learning that 'fired clay' is a thing, and that it can be made, and used to do useful things -- that requires advances, insight. Learning that fibers can be spun, woven, knotted -- that requires advances, increased understanding, insight. Leaning to make and use fire for light, heat, and cooking -- that requires a series of acts of invention; more insights. Cooperating as a group, for better hunting, gathering, protection -- that is a discovery, too.
Humans might fairly be described as 'what happens to great apes who become dependent on harnessed fire for cooking', so maybe 'Human' includes use of fire at TL-0. Everything else has to be invented from scratch; and folks who are obsessed with spending every waking moment scrabbling for enough calories to stay alive do not spend very much time innovating. More people working on a problem, the better the odds one of them has an 'Aha!' moment; once a bunch of people have learned that 'Aha!', the chances that it will be lost when a person dies is reduced -- that preserves innovations across time, Inventing language allows better teaching; inventing writing allows learning from those who are dead, or far away.
The more people innovate, the more energy (and better tools) they have available. Domesticating wolves into dogs was an increase in technology -- dogs can use their energy to pull or carry loads, they can extend the awareness and influence of a hunter, they can assist a watchman by paying attention or fighting.... Dogs are tools, and they made more energy available to humans than simply the energy of human muscle. Domesticating cows & oxen was another technological advance; they have greater strength and can provide meat, milk, leather, sinew, and horn -- plus they gather calories stored in grass (nutritionally inaccessible to humans) and convert it into all those useful things.
So 'how is selectively breeding animals a technology' is sort of a naive question; first the animals (or plants! Domestication RADICALLY altered maize and bananas, just as two examples) must be domesticated, and then the rancher must make the effort to select for desirable traits and against undesirable traits. Good examples must be saved and bred instead of killed and eaten -- and people need to have a reason for doing that, which involves the insight that 'offspring tend to be somewhat similar to their parents'. That insight and innovation produces better tools -- better animals.
Throughout history, quality of life has increased in direct correlation with the energy and productivity available to an individual. Productivity is an economic thing, so lets stick with energy.
TL-0 Humans may pick up and move things, but are limited to the energy in human muscle; ~100 W at rest, up to about 400 Watts for sustained periods, and up to 2000 Watts for short bursts.
At TL-1 humans typically have fire from wood; this is about 5kWh per kg. But with just fire, the only useful work is with heat harnessed for cooking, warmth/shelter, and enough dim light to see a few meters from the campfire (maybe a +1, out to 1.2x what can be seen without the fire?-ish -- this is just a constructed example). Tools are not powered by fire; they are powered my human muscle augmented by both cooperation and the simple machines -- levers, axles, inclined planes, etc. This allows maybe five to ten times better use of energy, amplifying human capability; so maybe ~5 kiloWatts for sustained periods, and maybe 10 kiloWatts for short bursts.
Maybe say TL-2 is fire with charcoal; but also domestication of animals. An Oxen can put out more power than any human; subject to various inefficiencies on how they are hitched to the work.
Water wheels (and windmills) also generate useful power, and do not require food.
If we are building an in Game Tech Tree maybe we can say TL-0 is 0.25 'Power' available; TL-1 is 1.25 'Power' available, with up to 3 'Power' with four or five people working together; TL-2 is 6.25 'Power', with up to 12.5 with several beasts harnessed together; TL-3 allows better harnesses, lighter and smoother turning mechanisms, and 31 to 62 'Power'; TL-4 allows 150 to 300 'Power', etc & etc. Maybe folks are harnessing Oxen -- but maybe not; the fluff is unimportant. Maybe it is Donkeys providing the work, or giant riding chickens, or draft horses, or Tortoises Of Unusual Size. The point is that a power-plant outputs (for a given 'unit of power-plant') a specific amount of 'Power' per round, which increases by ~5x per TL. Upper TLs might be Fusion+; 'Cosmic power', anti-matter, or 'Zero-Point Energy', but those are just labels.
Yes, and that can be improved upon. Since the vast majority of Traveller players are Solomani Humans, it is inevitable that more than a few Solomani biases and veiwpoints
In North America there were pre-Colombian tribes which worked copper for more than a century, then discarded that knowledge. Using 'era years' to describe their technological progression is unhelpful, and it happened at a wildly different time as the 'copper age' in the fertile cresent. What matteres is the capability, not the 'era'.
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MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
So, your entire TL system is based on human output? The base TL for a human is zero and equals a certain amount of "work" per time period. You used Watts, so let's go with that. Does this mean that the Virushi are automatically a higher TL since they naturally can produce more "work"? How about a Droyne? They can do less work than a human. How do these TLs for different species relate then in your view? Does TL require sentience? How you describe it, everything has an inherent TL based on how much work it can do. Yes? So, in your system, animals have TLs as well?
I've never seen anyone say that TL is meaningless. It's just like every other macro scale number in the UPP. It is a high level overview trying to summarize the entirety of a world into one number. It is useful for what it is designed to do, which is give a quick 'at a glance' estimate of the situation.
Traveller's TL definitions could benefit from being less tied to Charted Space and less prescriptive of specific tools. I don't know if it is really possible to get it as generic as you suggest. But a culture that relies on biological engineering needs to be able to be represented as well as ones based on machinery. Possibly psionic based societies as well, though something like McCaffery's Tower series wouldn't suit Charted Space. A less "TL 6 is tanks and radios" presentation would be nice.
But not easy to do.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Balkanized technological level progression.
Remember, the Vilani were pretty clueless about pharmaceuticals.
Remember, the Vilani were pretty clueless about pharmaceuticals.
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
I am open to changes, but I just don't see how we can come up with better than we've got. Think about it. What is the TL of a sentient organism that travels in regular space as well as jump space in a symbiotic relationship with smaller lifeforms that live inside of it and provide it with companionship and direction in its life? This would be TL-0. Why? Because lifeforms don't have a TL. Yet, this does all of the same things that a TL-16 sentient starship can do. How do we model something like that into a TL? We'd end up with every biological creature in the universe having its own TL based on their capabilities? How does having or not having psionics affect this? Does each race have a base TL as well as each individual creature? Does a non-psionic race take a penalty in TL over a race that is or can be psionic? I applaud the effort and desire to improve things, but I just don't see how this doesn't turn into a huge mess that makes things worse than they are with TL currently.
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
This is an issue for Pioneer too, by the time it is published we may have fusion rocket engines, the first tests are next year if everything goes to plan. Which it won't. So the chemical rockets, reusability, fission powered engines will be included but not the currently hypothetical fusion engines.
Still no sign of gravitics (unless you are a tin foil hat wearing UAP believer)
I am disapointed you can not remembr every post I make
Meson tech is TL11 but hey ho
Does everyone in the Third Imperium have access to smartphones and social media? Do they have AI monitoring their lives and providing online virtual assistance?
This, so much this. Traveller is not The Third Imperium Roleplaying Game. The Trhird Imperium is just one example of countless settings.
I like science, I like history, I like military history. I like studying the history of science, engineering and technology in general.
Technological progress consists of many disparate threads being woven into a new tapestry.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
We're handed it on a silver platter.
Generally, progression requires resources, money, access, time, and/or dice rolling.
And that's usually individual branches of the technological tree.
Generally, progression requires resources, money, access, time, and/or dice rolling.
And that's usually individual branches of the technological tree.
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
How about we step back and look at how other games do it? Here are two of my favourites:
d20M/F Progress levels:
0: Stone Age, 1: bronze/iron age, 2: middle ages, 3: age of reason, 4: industrial age, 5: information age, 6: fusion age, 7: gravity age, 8: energy age, 9: technology as magic
FATE Space toolkit: three levels, high-plausibility, low-plausibility, and medium-plausibility
"High-plausibility games emphasize creating a coherent, internally consistent game universe in line with contemporary scientific knowledge and speculation. Part of the fun of such games is getting the math right, even if only figuratively— the aim is to speculate rigorously about the ramifications of scientific developments and cultural conditions.
Set the dial to high plausibility when you want a game that is grounded as much as possible in real-world science, both social and natural."
"In low-plausibility games, the players have a higher threshold for the willing suspension of disbelief, meaning that they’re not terribly concerned about the internal coherence of the game universe, so long as it’s dramatic or exciting. At its core, Star Wars—with its dogfighting space fighters, psychic space samurai, and giant space monsters—is the benchmark for low-plausibility games.
Set the dial to low plausibility when you want an over-the-top, pulp-flavored game high on atmospherics and melodrama. Some groups will be more resistant than others to bending, blending, or otherwise mixing up the trappings of different fictional genres in their game."
"In medium-plausibility games, the emphasis frequently falls on exploring the consequences of some “What if?”
concept. They often blend and bend genre, introducing one or two big, black-boxed implausibilities in order to drive the questions in which the fiction is interested.
Star Trek is a good benchmark for medium-plausibility games. There’s a lot of technobabble double-talk, but the focus of any given episode is usually on dealing with the consequences of a particular science-fictional MacGuffin, whether that’s a society of quasi-Romans, godlike aliens, or a lonesome space whale.
Set the dial to medium plausibility when you want a game that’s grounded in reality but you’re willing to take pretty big liberties with real science in the service of the game’s central premise."
d20M/F Progress levels:
0: Stone Age, 1: bronze/iron age, 2: middle ages, 3: age of reason, 4: industrial age, 5: information age, 6: fusion age, 7: gravity age, 8: energy age, 9: technology as magic
FATE Space toolkit: three levels, high-plausibility, low-plausibility, and medium-plausibility
"High-plausibility games emphasize creating a coherent, internally consistent game universe in line with contemporary scientific knowledge and speculation. Part of the fun of such games is getting the math right, even if only figuratively— the aim is to speculate rigorously about the ramifications of scientific developments and cultural conditions.
Set the dial to high plausibility when you want a game that is grounded as much as possible in real-world science, both social and natural."
"In low-plausibility games, the players have a higher threshold for the willing suspension of disbelief, meaning that they’re not terribly concerned about the internal coherence of the game universe, so long as it’s dramatic or exciting. At its core, Star Wars—with its dogfighting space fighters, psychic space samurai, and giant space monsters—is the benchmark for low-plausibility games.
Set the dial to low plausibility when you want an over-the-top, pulp-flavored game high on atmospherics and melodrama. Some groups will be more resistant than others to bending, blending, or otherwise mixing up the trappings of different fictional genres in their game."
"In medium-plausibility games, the emphasis frequently falls on exploring the consequences of some “What if?”
concept. They often blend and bend genre, introducing one or two big, black-boxed implausibilities in order to drive the questions in which the fiction is interested.
Star Trek is a good benchmark for medium-plausibility games. There’s a lot of technobabble double-talk, but the focus of any given episode is usually on dealing with the consequences of a particular science-fictional MacGuffin, whether that’s a society of quasi-Romans, godlike aliens, or a lonesome space whale.
Set the dial to medium plausibility when you want a game that’s grounded in reality but you’re willing to take pretty big liberties with real science in the service of the game’s central premise."
No they didn’t pg 42 Trojan Reach “
G, Small station or facility: Either operated by an offworld clan or controlled by a company (the only instance where a world is controlled by anything but a clan).
H, Split control: Different parts of the world are owned by several on-planet clans. An analogy to human balkanised worlds.
J, Single on-world clan control: Other small clans may be present, but they will be dominated by the major clan. K, Single multi-world clan control: The world is controlled by a single clan whose span extends over several worlds, not necessarily nearby.
L, Major clan control: The world is controlled by one of the Twenty-Nine.
M, Vassal clan control: The world is controlled (but not owned) by a vassal clan in fief to a larger clan.
N, Major vassal clan control: The world is controlled (but not owned) by a vassal clan in fief to one of the Twenty-Nine.”
These are the Aslan government types?
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
What edition is that?
Pirates of Drinax book 2 Trojan Reach 2nd edition mongoose Traveller. There’s a whole section About 10 to 20 pages that was left out of Aliens of charted space 1 including generating Aslan Worlds. Other than that the Aslan part of AoCS1 is copy and pasted from Trojan Reach
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The Aliens of Charted Space books are very PC centric. So i suspect that this is why things like world building are not included in these books. Both CT’s and MT’s Alien’s books were more complete with booth GM and PC sections. I again suspect that things Government types and other GM information will be included in more GM focus books.