Ship vs vehicle cost

[Nelphine]

So I've been looking at Tolcreators house rule on cheaper ships with higher maintenance.

In isolation, I like it a lot - it makes purchasing ships far more realistic for random wanderers.

I realize it's not needed in any way obviously, I'm looking at it specifically as a houserule that makes more sense to me, and the work Tolcreator did means that the underlying assumptions about freight, passenger and overall monthly costs all remain consistent with the core rules.

However, there are two things that weren't really addressed. Military ships, although they were touched on, and I have ideas about it.

But the purpose of this thread is the second item .. vehicle vs ship cost. (I'm focused on current rules, not the implications of Tolcreator's house rule for this discussion, but my personal intent is to use this as a basis for modifying his house rule further to account for vehicle costs)

In particular, my thought is that a 40 space heavy grav vehicle, should be basically the same price as a 10 ton ship. (And realistically, a lot cheaper as the grav vehicle still has to buy dangerous environment upgrades to go to space)


For this purpose, I'll assume M5 speed (it should be lower, but I figure TL 11 is the default for this type of vehicle, and a lower M drive just makes the difference worse).

Using HG 2022 rules, the ship would be 600k for the streamlined hull + 1m for the engine + 500k for a half ton power plant, plus a cockpit.

The heavy grav vehicle would be.. 3.2 million for 40 spaces. This is roughly 50% more expensive, and I can't think of a reason why.

Obviously, we could say that grav vehicles just shouldn't be that big, but.. I dislike that answer.

One thing that does match properly is hull values, as they are equal. (I need to check how armour on the two compares)

Does anyone have thoughts on why grav vehicles are so expensive, or, how they (or ships) could be changed to match up better?
(My current thought is to cut the grav vehicle cost in half, but that is a huge change, with repercussions on various other active topics right now, even if I'm the only one who would use this house rule)

 

[J. L. Brown]

Unfortunately, the only answer seems to be that the writers of the Vehicle Handbook were on crack.

Fusion for vehicles is far too bulky and expensive, and same for grav-vehicles of all types. At TL 10, fusion powered grav vehicles should be cheap, reliable, and ubiquitous. The Vehicle handbook makes that impossible.

 

[Nelphine]

I know grav vehicles are already cheaper than in mongoose 1e..

Does anyone know what the prices were like in previous editions for a comparable size?

 

[MasterGwydion]

Unfortunately, the only answer seems to be that the writers of the Vehicle Handbook were on crack.

Fusion for vehicles is far too bulky and expensive, and same for grav-vehicles of all types. At TL 10, fusion powered grav vehicles should be cheap, reliable, and ubiquitous. The Vehicle handbook makes that impossible.

I agree with this. All of the written "fluff" describes them as used everywhere in high tech societies, but the actual mechanics of their construction would definitely preclude this from happening.

 

[JustEastOfTheEdge]

It is an RPG, not a manufacturing simulation. What does it matter if the costs for ships do not align precisely in proportion with the cost of cutlery, or hamster cages.

 

[MasterGwydion]

It is an RPG, not a manufacturing simulation. What does it matter if the costs for ships do not align precisely in proportion with the cost of cutlery, or hamster cages.

It matters that, if you say this is how some technology is used in society, but then mechanically make that impossible. It doesn't matter if it is an RPG or not. It does not work as the writers say it does, by their own rules. Even in the train discussion, the people on this forum have way over complicated the issue. In My mind it was a simple cost analysis of vehicle plus infrastructure versus just needing to pay for the vehicle, but no one on here wanted to let it be that simple.

 

[Nelphine]

Because if I want to use the house rule mentioned (which I do) that would make a 200 ton ship about the same price as a 55 space grav vehicle.

Which is a bit excessive. So I want to modify vehicles to be consistent with my house rule change. But when I looked to do that, the vehicle rules themselves are a bit wonky, so I was hoping for insight so that I could change them in a consistent fashion too.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Because if I want to use the house rule mentioned (which I do) that would make a 200 ton ship about the same price as a 55 space grav vehicle.

Which is a bit excessive. So I want to modify vehicles to be consistent with my house rule change. But when I looked to do that, the vehicle rules themselves are a bit wonky, so I was hoping for insight so that I could change them in a consistent fashion too.

You are screwed on this. You would have to rewrite the Vehicle Handbook first. Same problem I have with trains. I can buy 166 Shuttles for the cost of 1 train. The Vehicle rules were never designed to be compatible with the rest of the Traveller system. This is a major failure on the part of Mongoose, especially since Geir did such an awesome job with the Robot Handbook being compatible with both vehicle-scale and spaceship-scale.

 

[Nelphine]

I'm OK with rewriting it at least in the sense of Tolcreators house rule. I think the essence of the vehicle handbook is fine, and there just needs to be specific things adjusted.

So, if im going to start, how do people think about 40-50k per space for heavy grav vehicles?

 

[MasterGwydion]

I'm OK with rewriting it at least in the sense of Tolcreators house rule. I think the essence of the vehicle handbook is fine, and there just needs to be specific things adjusted.

So, if im going to start, how do people think about 40-50k per space for heavy grav vehicles?

If 4 Spaces = 1 dton? Not sure. Without a jump drive a spaceship is only 25k per ton for the hull. That means a spacecraft costs less then 7k per Space.

 

[Condottiere]

Spacecraft maintenance costs are implausible - I almost said unrealistic, but I caught myself in time.

I'd say that vehicle maintenance costs percentagewise should decrease every technological level, but I can't tell if that has happened.

Automated and sophisticated diagnostics should catch problems before they happen, and prevention should be cheaper than the cure.

 

[Nelphine]

If 4 Spaces = 1 dton? Not sure. Without a jump drive a spaceship is only 25k per ton for the hull. That means a spacecraft costs less then 7k per Space.

hmm?

a streamlined hull is 60k per ton? but a ship has to purchase the cockpit/bridge, M drive and power plant seperately, whereas for vehicles (currently) those 3 items are rolled into the cost of the vehicle.

 

[Nelphine]

Spacecraft maintenance costs are implausible - I almost said unrealistic, but I caught myself in time.

I'd say that vehicle maintenance costs percentagewise should decrease every technological level, but I can't tell if that has happened.

Automated and sophisticated diagnostics should catch problems before they happen, and prevention should be cheaper than the cure.

but arguably, higher tech should be more and more complicated when there are problems and so (for me) it should be a wash. for the purposes of a game, I'm fine with calling it a wash, as that's easier to make rules with.

 

[MasterGwydion]

hmm?

a streamlined hull is 60k per ton? but a ship has to purchase the cockpit/bridge, M drive and power plant seperately, whereas for vehicles (currently) those 3 items are rolled into the cost of the vehicle.

Just another flaw in the Vehicle Handbook. You can't build a hot-rod if you can't put in the engines you want. All of those things should be separate, same as they are for spacecraft.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Spacecraft maintenance costs are implausible - I almost said unrealistic, but I caught myself in time.

I'd say that vehicle maintenance costs percentagewise should decrease every technological level, but I can't tell if that has happened.

Automated and sophisticated diagnostics should catch problems before they happen, and prevention should be cheaper than the cure.

Have you never owned a car? My 1971 Land Rover Series III, was way cheaper to buy and maintain than My current 2020 Toyota Land Cruiser. My Land Rover had no power steering, no power brakes, no computers, no circuit boards. I carried a toolbox in the back and could basically fix it on the side of the road. I can't even change the oil in My Toyota without taking it to a mechanic.

 

[Nelphine]

Just another flaw in the Vehicle Handbook. You can't build a hot-rod if you can't put in the engines you want. All of those things should be separate, same as they are for spacecraft.

sure we could do that. the main 'problem' is that power plants generate odd amounts of power. Ideally, I'd want to make power plants and engines come in 1 space sizes (and probably allow for combined engine/power plants that are only 1 space), but say a TL12 power plant is 15 power for 1 dton, which is 4 spaces.. so 1 space would be 3.75 power? that seems unhelpful. Even if we convert by a factor of 10 (to match the rest of what vehicle to ship is) that's still 37.5 vpower in 1 space.

 

[Geir]

I'm OK with rewriting it at least in the sense of Tolcreators house rule. I think the essence of the vehicle handbook is fine, and there just needs to be specific things adjusted.

So, if im going to start, how do people think about 40-50k per space for heavy grav vehicles?

I think it would be a reasonable assumption to just double it from 30K to 60K for a heavy vehicle. In fact I would even say that in general for any type of vehicle with a light and a heavy class, doubling it for heavy would not be a poor assumption.

 

[MasterGwydion]

sure we could do that. the main 'problem' is that power plants generate odd amounts of power. Ideally, I'd want to make power plants and engines come in 1 space sizes (and probably allow for combined engine/power plants that are only 1 space), but say a TL12 power plant is 15 power for 1 dton, which is 4 spaces.. so 1 space would be 3.75 power? that seems unhelpful. Even if we convert by a factor of 10 (to match the rest of what vehicle to ship is) that's still 37.5 vpower in 1 space.

I tried to discuss this in another thread about power generation. It was a spectacular fail.

My theory was that the system needs to be changed so that a power point is a power point is a power point. Does not matter where it comes from. Fusion power is supposed to be powerful. If it wasn't We wouldn't be fighting so hard to develop fusion power on Earth. Even in Traveller, Fusion+ was supposed to have changed the whole paradigm for civilizations that achieve that TL, allowing briefcase-sized fusion reactors. Each building with it's own power supply. Each car and truck with literally weeks or months of time between fuelings. Then the Vehicle Handbook comes out and ignores all of that. If a 1-ton TL-15 Fusion Plant puts out 20-power, then a 0.25-ton fusion plant should put out 5 power. It is a game, not a simulation. We need to keep it simple.

 

[Nelphine]

I think it would be a reasonable assumption to just double it from 30K to 60K for a heavy vehicle. In fact I would even say that in general for any type of vehicle with a light and a heavy class, doubling it for heavy would not be a poor assumption.

Sure, but even 60k is going to end up more expensive than an equivalent size spaceship. And the vehicle hasn't even purchased space environment ability at that point.

My thought was go the other way - heavy grav is 40k, so a light grav would drop to 20k.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I think it would be a reasonable assumption to just double it from 30K to 60K for a heavy vehicle. In fact I would even say that in general for any type of vehicle with a light and a heavy class, doubling it for heavy would not be a poor assumption.

Why not just separate out the components, just like in Robots and just like in HG? Why have a completely different system for Vehicles? It makes no sense. Then if you want to carry more weight, simply install a bigger motor.