Vehicle handbook update request

[tytalan]

So there are some much needed thing that should be addressed in the vehicle handbook

The space system is a great ideal it works well in Robots and should work with vehicles but there are problems
The first problem is the fact that the chassis includes the power plant this is probably the biggest issue since it doesn’t take fusion power plants into consideration. So if you want to make a fusion powered vehicle you literally pay for two power plants. The solution to this would be have the chassis not included the power plan and have the space that the chassis uses. This would also open up different options. As it stands now anything with a fusion power plant it twice or more the tonnage of previous versions.

This also brings up the fact the fusion plants are ridiculous. They are way to massive when compared to other fusion plants and the 50 year without refueling is insane there’s no way the plant has that much H in it. Both fission and fusion power plants make no sense you literally are paying for two power plants the included in the chassis cost and the fission to fission plant you add. There is literally no advantage to having a fusion plant. Even a mobile fusion power plant which is 14 spaces can power 6 vehicles (pg 172 FC).

The Armor rules just don’t make much sense

Because of the chassis taking up half the space of the vehicle no matter the power plant it makes small vehicles impractical

Smaller vehicles like bikes and such are to limited in size. The option are for the most part lacking. When I compare Highguard 2022 and Robots to the vehicle handbook the later just doesn’t compare. Every other core book has gotten a revision and they have been great. Please revisit the Vehicle Handbook with the current books especially Robots in mind.

 

[Shardan13]

I have my own issues with the presented military grav vehicles. As I said in elsewhere the floor and roof armor of military G vehicles are too thin for high flying vehicles. Experienced opponents with suitable weapons will ignore shooting the front or sides the vehicle and instead aim for the vehicle's bottom.

Another issue is the work through example of the honey badger doesn't have a large turret. So does a large turret add to shipping size? Do you need to add armor to a large turret for it to be protected? Can you add other things to a large turret like sensors or a crane?

 

[Condottiere]

I mostly gave up on Vehicles.

You don't need an update, but a complete overhaul.

 

[Shardan13]

I mostly gave up on Vehicles.

You don't need an update, but a complete overhaul.

Condottiere, what do you use instead of the Vehicles Handbook when you want a custom vehicle in your traveller universe?

 

[Condottiere]

I don't, really.

At this point, the only time I would need to consider this, would be when I flesh out the ground vehicle fleet for the CAVALRY.

And I have them mostly on motor bikes, quads, buggies, pickups, basically technicals.

Urban patrol, you could pick a default Traveller design.

The Confederation Marines use assault shuttles.

Wildcard would be underground diggers, and I'm nowhere near there yet.

I simplified the issue (for me) by having a split in responsibilities and missions between the Confederation Army and Navy, in that the Navy bought and operated all spacecraft, the Army all aircraft and gravitationally motored vehicles, and they shared waterborne, tracked and wheeled vehicles.

To be fair, spacecraft make better aircraft.

 

[Geir]

Funny thing is: I stole concepts from the Vehicle handbook for Robots: abstracting out basic locomotion and power volumes and costs, then using slots (from Battledress) instead of Spaces, to fill in the rest.

That being said, I've failed on two attempts to spreadsheet out vehicle design. It's too fragmented, divergent (the hull materials don't line up with Highguard TLs for instance - and don't get me started on comms and sensors), and often a bit too ambiguous to be easily codified. Vehicle combat and hits is also 'broken' with a crude band aid put on in the Companion.

In the World Builder's Handbook, I built the Survey Pod variants (p.236 and 237) using Vehicle rules and the Pod Droid (p. 240), using Robot rules and they come out rather close... except, the Pod Droid has 72 hits and the vehicle Pods have 8 hull. Which implies that the 10:1 rule for personal versus spacecraft scale is actually more appropriate for personal versus vehicle, and that makes personal to spacecraft, what? 100:1. With the base armour of a starship with no armour rating still rather undefined - 'about 9 or 10' is probably workable, given the Companion's value of 8 for a steel hatch and 12 for a steel blast door. MegaTraveller had 40 as a default hull, but that's not directly comparable.

 

[Arkathan]

That being said, I've failed on two attempts to spreadsheet out vehicle design.

I got close, but the weapons tab beat me. Thoroughly trounced me and dragged me through the mud.
Did get the records sheet pretty good though, with layered fire arcs, descriptions and an area for an attached photo.

 

[tytalan]

Here’s one of the funniest things in the Vehicle Handbook It states that at tech level 12 fusion power becomes ubiquitous. I wonder if the author understands the meaning of the word because there is absolutely no reason to change to fusion power in fact the rules discourages the use of fusion power plants. You’re taxed by not getting any space credit for the existing power system and it cost more space. The 50+ years duration is ridiculous and doesn’t offset the extra cost in space and price in any way.

 

[tytalan]

Funny thing is: I stole concepts from the Vehicle handbook for Robots: abstracting out basic locomotion and power volumes and costs, then using slots (from Battledress) instead of Spaces, to fill in the rest.

That being said, I've failed on two attempts to spreadsheet out vehicle design. It's too fragmented, divergent (the hull materials don't line up with Highguard TLs for instance - and don't get me started on comms and sensors), and often a bit too ambiguous to be easily codified. Vehicle combat and hits is also 'broken' with a crude band aid put on in the Companion.

In the World Builder's Handbook, I built the Survey Pod variants (p.236 and 237) using Vehicle rules and the Pod Droid (p. 240), using Robot rules and they come out rather close... except, the Pod Droid has 72 hits and the vehicle Pods have 8 hull. Which implies that the 10:1 rule for personal versus spacecraft scale is actually more appropriate for personal versus vehicle, and that makes personal to spacecraft, what? 100:1. With the base armour of a starship with no armour rating still rather undefined - 'about 9 or 10' is probably workable, given the Companion's value of 8 for a steel hatch and 12 for a steel blast door. MegaTraveller had 40 as a default hull, but that's not directly comparable.

Geir we need you to do a vehicle handbook rewrite. Robots is a good example of what vehicle should have been. There are so many issues with the chassis in VH for one sail boats would be tech level 2 the sail age not tech 3 or 4. Aerodynes have some natural differences from Helicopters. The only vehicle laser is a light laser. You showed how the base system could be used and kept it in lines with everything else.

 

[ProfGrizzlyJon]

I am finishing a rewrite of the biotech vehicle rules, based on the Robots and Animal rules.

This has led me to addressing the Vehicle rules.

As a simple approach, I am basically creating two seta of rules: one that is for <10 dton vehicles (using spaces), and one that is built for >10 dton vehicles (using tons). The latter is basically an expansion of the High Guard small craft design rules.

The advantage here is that the crossover between vehicles and smallcraft/starships becomes much easier. Basically, vehicle chassis types fulfill a similar role as the Hull types in High Guard.

@Geir if you are open for a discussion, I would gladly discuss this more.

 

[tytalan]

I am finishing a rewrite of the biotech vehicle rules, based on the Robots and Animal rules.

This has led me to addressing the Vehicle rules.

As a simple approach, I am basically creating two seta of rules: one that is for <10 dton vehicles (using spaces), and one that is built for >10 dton vehicles (using tons). The latter is basically an expansion of the High Guard small craft design rules.

The advantage here is that the crossover between vehicles and smallcraft/starships becomes much easier. Basically, vehicle chassis types fulfill a similar role as the Hull types in High Guard.

@Geir if you are open for a discussion, I would gladly discuss this more.

I can see that as a possibility a good way to go. There are some serious issues that need addressing Fusion power plants being one, sailing ships being another for the former the ideal of a 50 or 100 year duration for a fusion plant is crazy that literally out of 10 spaces over 9 of them is fuel (for some reason fusion was balanced vs nuclear ) and the latter the Viking sailed the Atlantic and they were far from TL 4 more like 3 or 2. It’s the fusion power plant that increased the size of the Trepida from 10 tons to 24 tons and the Astrin from 10 ton to 22 ton. The fusion plant and the armor. Armor is another thing that need work.

 

[ProfGrizzlyJon]

I can see that as a possibility a good way to go. There are some serious issues that need addressing Fusion power plants being one, sailing ships being another for the former the ideal of a 50 or 100 year duration for a fusion plant is crazy that literally out of 10 spaces over 9 of them is fuel (for some reason fusion was balanced vs nuclear ) and the latter the Viking sailed the Atlantic and they were far from TL 4 more like 3 or 2. It’s the fusion power plant that increased the size of the Trepida from 10 tons to 24 tons and the Astrin from 10 ton to 22 ton. The fusion plant and the armor. Armor is another thing that need work.

I agree, but, there is a way to simplify some of it to great effect on playability.

Look at the recent change to small craft fuel requirements in the Small Craft Catalog

 

[Condottiere]

That was just a confirmation of ship design adjustment in a previous publication.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Surface area, internal volume, the square-cube law

When an object undergoes a proportional increase in size, its new surface area is proportional to the square of the multiplier and its new volume is proportional to the cube of the multiplier.

This is where you start with any design sequence.

 

[tytalan]

I agree, but, there is a way to simplify some of it to great effect on playability.

Look at the recent change to small craft fuel requirements in the Small Craft Catalog

What changes to small craft fuel I don’t have the small craft catalog did they actually change the requirements or did they just allow fuel storage of less than ton lots?

 

[ProfGrizzlyJon]

What changes to small craft fuel I don’t have the small craft catalog did they actually change the requirements or did they just allow fuel storage of less than ton lots?

It was basically just allowing for <1ton fuel.

I tried an incremental approach of adding chemical fuel plants (with a gradient similar to the HG fusion) and RTGs which have different fuel requirements (although, the chemical fuel was hydrogen).
The locomotion was simplified to be by speed band, in lieu of G-thrust. This allowed hybrid drive systems (using a grav suspension to achieve neutral buoyancy and then accelerate with a different form of propulsion).
It also let me play around with the firmpoint-hardpoint-smaller weapons mechanic.

 

[ProfGrizzlyJon]

Because we need more of these

 

[MongooseMatt]

Because we need more of these

I mean... you are not wrong...

 

[ProfGrizzlyJon]

I mean... you are not wrong...

Thanks!

While reviewing it, I realized that the crux of my modifications was three simple guidelines:
1) If the vehicle is <1dton, use Slots.
2) If the vehicle is >1dton, but <10dtons, use Spaces.
3) If the vehicle is >10dtons, use Tons.

There are a lot of components in vehicles that I have wanted to include in space stations or small craft, and add different locomotion (aka chassis).

 

[Condottiere]