Updated Vehicle Handbook in the works

[J. L. Brown]

So, your entire TL system is based on human output? The base TL for a human is zero and equals a certain amount of "work" per time period. You used Watts, so let's go with that. Does this mean that the Virushi are automatically a higher TL since they naturally can produce more "work"? How about a Droyne? They can do less work than a human. How do these TLs for different species relate then in your view? Does TL require sentience? How you describe it, everything has an inherent TL based on how much work it can do. Yes? So, in your system, animals have TLs as well?

Since the maps, UPPs and TLs in Charted Space are defined by humans, some human bias is still included -- I am even using units of energy named after a human. But you are still treating TLs as big monolithic things; like whole packages of all different types of tools and skills all lumped together -- which is a natural thing if you think of TLs as 'eras'. But 'Medical' technology can advance ahead of (or behind) other kinds of technology, like 'Power Generation', or 'Computing'.

And yes, animals may have tech levels, and I am absolutely fine with Virushi starting their climb towards civilization from a higher 'power generation' Technology Level. But consider that high tech medicines -- like the anti-malarial Quinine at TL 5 -- can come from plants. Or TL-2 warriors carrying sheilds made from Rhino-hide -- because the other materials they had available were not as good. Are plants and rhinos doomed to always and only be TL-0? Will TL-1 or TL-2 'stealth technology' always have a big advantage over animals, which are permanently relegated to TL-0? There are animals with echo-location or sonar; some that have tough hides or shells, some which produce ultrastrong & light fibers -- and to my mind it makes sense that animals should be rated on exactly the same scale; that it makes sense that hyper-space whales are higher (space travel) TL than non-FTL humans.

 

[Vormaerin]

GURPS's version of Charted Space does the tech tree in 12 TLs (So TL 12 = TL 15). The Mindjammer setting for Traveller has 10 TLs with standard TL 15 being around TL 8. I tend to think that fewer slices of the pie work better, but that ship has probably sailed.

The biggest problem with TL = specific gadgets/techs is that it does not reflect different circumstances. The TL solutions on a world with massive regular windstorms probably wouldn't include aircraft. It might not include skyscrapers or other things we take for granted.

What TL are Dune Mentats? Do you have to have computers for space flight? Or could mechanical systems and Mentats get you there?

How do you quantify the societies that did not invent Jump drive, but pushed a lot of other techs far up the tree?

 

[Geir]

Meson tech is TL11 but hey ho

I see that it is for small bays only... which is odd*, but I associate it with the war winning storyline from Interstellar Wars where J-3 and Mesons where the thing things the Vilani never invented (at TL11), so that was my reasoning.

*Small bay TL11, medium bay TL12, large bay TL13, Spinal TL12 - does this not seem odd to you?

 

[Technetium 98]

*Small bay TL11, medium bay TL12, large bay TL13, Spinal TL12 - does this not seem odd to you?

(Off the wiki and ignoring MGT2's High Guard fuckery-)

Apparently the tech itself is TL 11, which you could interpret as A, the actual weaponry coming one TL later, or B, the vilani-descended Third Imperium trying to rewrite history a touch by claiming they totally could've made the weapons that got them all killed the first time round, they were just... trying to be sporting about it!

Speaking of, actually - do you think it makes more sense for small/medium/large weapons systems to be equivalent TL, falling TL (miniaturisation being more advanced tech), or rising TL (trouble scaling up the weapons system)? Though I admit going back down to TL 12 for spinals makes... no sense at all.

 

[Sigtrygg]

I see that it is for small bays only... which is odd*, but I associate it with the war winning storyline from Interstellar Wars where J-3 and Mesons where the thing things the Vilani never invented (at TL11), so that was my reasoning.

*Small bay TL11, medium bay TL12, large bay TL13, Spinal TL12 - does this not seem odd to you?

It strikes me of someone doing no research at all, or a deliberate change for who knows what reason.

I am basing it on CT etc. where the meson spinal is TL11, as it is in MT and both versions of FF&S.

100t bay weapons appear at TL 13, 50t at TL15.

 

[tytalan]

One of the things on vehicle Meson Guns is as artillery they lose the AP treat since it’s a big difference between targeting the insides of a huge starship during a 6 minute round and targeting a small vehicle during a 6 second round. Hence why they are artillery instead of direct fire.

 

[tytalan]

Also, that list is very Eurocentric. Lots of technologies were invented at different rates in different parts of the world.

Of course it is how could it not be the game was created by an American and the primary writers have all been English speaking mostly from England and the US. There’s no such thing as a game that is not biased by the author’s background. Expecting this not to be the case is disingenuous and unrealistic.

 

[collins355]

It strikes me of someone doing no research at all, or a deliberate change for who knows what reason.

I am basing it on CT etc. where the meson spinal is TL11, as it is in MT and both versions of FF&S.

100t bay weapons appear at TL 13, 50t at TL15.

Its interesting, one of the changes between 1st edition CT/High Guard and 2nd edition CT/High Guard is that in the original 100dT bay mesons only appeared at TL14, but they obviously changed their minds by the time of High Guard '80.

 

[Sigtrygg]

HG79 also has 10 ton bays, but they went away

T5 has the meson gun standard at TL13, and requiring a 200t "main" mount.

And then in typical T5 style has an example of a TL12 meson gun in a 100t "main" mount.

Because of the way T5 tech tree works the meson gun could appear at TL10...

 

[Geir]

So mostly through with the second edit now, and I've done at least one of each type of vehicle (well, depends on how you look at it, biotech is more a feature than a vehicle, but they get their own section and I haven't done one yet, and then there's the infrastructure section - I want to do an outpost compound example and a Class D downport, but not today). Still finding stupid things. But here's two sample vehicles that seem like they'll withstand further scrutiny. Well, one is actual a structure, the other a deathtrap.

 

[Condottiere]

I forgot luft was close to lift.

 

[tytalan]

Why does the LuftHaus state in the description that it can move yet under Speed Cruise its speed is listed as Stopped? And why would a house be able to move anyway?

 

[Condottiere]

Trailer park.

 

[Limpin Legin]

Why does the LuftHaus state in the description that it can move yet under Speed Cruise its speed is listed as Stopped? And why would a house be able to move anyway?

Because they don't own/don't want to own the land underneath where they stopped. That could be due to:

relative costs of available land,​

ease of acquiring mobile home/caravan​

nomadic because of seasonal weather and/or employment options or cultural beliefs​

nomadic because of length of trade routes​

displaced temporary accommodation because of war/famine/revolt/earthquake/etc.​

easier to carry home on starship, without having to sell up when they travel (??)​

 

[Geir]

I should revise how secondary locomotion shows up for structures... it's effectively Very Slow (Idle). No need to own land as long as you're allowed to occupy air space. Maybe there's a daily rental based on whose tax jurisdiction you're hovering over.

 

[Condottiere]

Snowbirds over Florida.

And now that I think about it, and the real estate market there, this actually might be a great investment, considering you don't need to sell off the family home when you retire, and buy a new one.

Could still be subject to a forty year mortgage.

 

[Anstett]

And now that I think about it, and the real estate market there, this actually might be a great investment, considering you don't need to sell off the family home when you retire, and buy a new one.

The problem we have is that there are fewer and fewer places to park them. If you own the land you can get a much higher rate of return on building a set of condos and renting than renting to RV style. "portable" homes are often not actually portable, or cost more to move than the value of the building.

Could still be subject to a forty year mortgage.

RVs are under purchase agreements like other vehicles, with none of the protections of a mortgage.

 

[Condottiere]

1. The issues with vehicular mortgage (and insurance) would be mobility, driver age, and depreciation.

2. You could park on a cliff (or hill), and rockfall and landslide wouldn't really be an issue.

3. Or a beach, and rising waters.

4. Or, in that case, a flood plain.

5. Foundation(s) should be interesting.

6. Steel floor, and concrete pylons.

7. With Florida, buy up some swampland for cheap real estate.

8. Probably couldn't go trans Atlantic.

9. But, cross (English) Channel, on the way to Spain.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Why does the LuftHaus state in the description that it can move yet under Speed Cruise its speed is listed as Stopped? And why would a house be able to move anyway?

Recreational Vehicle, Houseboat, Megayacht, etc... All houses that can move. So go and ask everyone that owns one, why they want a house that moves.

 

[Limpin Legin]

Recreational Vehicle, Houseboat, Megayacht, etc... All houses that can move. So go and ask everyone that owns one, why they want a house that moves.

- to provide regional entertainment.
- to avoid noisy neighbours. To drop out from the "rat race." Cheaper option.
- employment options.
See also:

Because they don't own/don't want to own the land underneath where they stopped. That could be due to:

relative costs of available land,​

ease of acquiring mobile home/caravan​

nomadic because of seasonal weather and/or employment options or cultural beliefs​

nomadic because of length of trade routes​

displaced temporary accommodation because of war/famine/revolt/earthquake/etc.​

easier to carry home on starship, without having to sell up when they travel (??)​

(Most of these ideas are from first hand sources, or from documentary journalism.)