Please Mongoose Fix the Vehicle Handbook

[Sigtrygg]

It is the other way around, grav tanks are obsolete by TL12 being replaced by gunships.

Tech Level	Infantry equipment	Infantry support	Artillery	Vehicles
12	The gauss rifle is introduced in limited numbers as a sniper weapon, expense Precluding general issue. The individual grav belt is occasionally used for scouting purposes	The PGMP-12 is introduced as a high energy squad support weapon, in many units replacing the grenade launcher. Most other support is provided by gunships integrated at the squad and platoon level.	Both the plasma C gun and the heavier fusion X gun are introduced in the air defense and general direct fire role. The now highly mobile A gun completely supplants the VRF gauss gun in the point defense role. Conventional artillery is almost completely supplanted by drone missiles.	All vehicles have sufficient free-flight performance that ground combat vehicles effectively no longer exist, having merged with aircraft. The primary weapon of the heavy gunships include plasma B guns, VRF gauss guns, and tac missiles. VRF gauss guns are also widely mounted on personnel carriers, as are plasma A guns.
13	All infantry is generally now in combat armor and equipped with gauss rifles. Battle dress is issued to selected assault troops.	The PGMP-13 is introduced as a support weapon in battle dress equipped units. The throw-away missile is introduced, incorporating televisual guidance and visual as well as inertial target location.	The first damper fields are introduced, enabling limited neutralization of incoming nuclear warheads. The fusion Y gun is introduced in the direct fire role, with the light plasma B gun taking over point defense. Gravitic compensators enable the heaviest fusion guns to fire on the move, and long-range direct fire by fusion guns executing popup maneuvers becomes standard.	The first damper fields allow protracted storage and transportation of elements with short half-lives. The first major use of the damper field militarily is to enable the manufacture, storage, and transportation of 2 cm californium rounds, fired from auto-cannon mounts in remotely piloted drones. Each round is hollow and collapses on impact, the collapsed round having sufficient mass to go critical, thus causing a small nuclear explosion. More conventional gunships mount plasma C guns or fusion X guns along with missiles.
14	A higher proportion of the infantry is equipped with battle dress, and the standard small arm for such troops becomes the PGMP-13.	At the squad level the PGMP-14 replaces the PGMP-12, while battle dress equipped units receive the FGMP-14 in place of the PGMP-13.	Much more sophisticated dampers enable virtually complete protection of operational areas from nuclear warheads. The fusion Z gun is introduced in the direct fire role.	More sophisticated damper fields render the californium drones obsolete. Gunships now carry fusion Y guns or rapid pulse X guns.
15	Most infantry is by now equipped with battle dress and has converted to the FGMP-14. The gauss rifle remains the standard arm of non-powered troops.	The FGMP-15 becomes the standard squad support weapon.	The primary direct fire weapon becomes the battlefield meson accelerator. Although much smaller than meson accelerators used in planetary defense, it is still by battlefield standards large, bulky, and extremely lethal. By now, the standard point defense and direct support weapon becomes the fusion Y gun. Drone missiles enjoy an increase in use as the appearance of meson accelerators linked to an increasingly sophisticated computer target acquisition and fire direction system makes the long-range popup increasingly impractical	Gunships mounting rapid pulse X guns and heavier Z guns are virtually indistinguishable from orbital craft. Lower performance personnel carriers mount rapid pulse X and Y guns and missile systems.

 

[tytalan]

It is the other way around, grav tanks are obsolete by TL12 being replaced by gunships.

Tech Level	Infantry equipment	Infantry support	Artillery	Vehicles
12	The gauss rifle is introduced in limited numbers as a sniper weapon, expense Precluding general issue. The individual grav belt is occasionally used for scouting purposes	The PGMP-12 is introduced as a high energy squad support weapon, in many units replacing the grenade launcher. Most other support is provided by gunships integrated at the squad and platoon level.	Both the plasma C gun and the heavier fusion X gun are introduced in the air defense and general direct fire role. The now highly mobile A gun completely supplants the VRF gauss gun in the point defense role. Conventional artillery is almost completely supplanted by drone missiles.	All vehicles have sufficient free-flight performance that ground combat vehicles effectively no longer exist, having merged with aircraft. The primary weapon of the heavy gunships include plasma B guns, VRF gauss guns, and tac missiles. VRF gauss guns are also widely mounted on personnel carriers, as are plasma A guns.
13	All infantry is generally now in combat armor and equipped with gauss rifles. Battle dress is issued to selected assault troops.	The PGMP-13 is introduced as a support weapon in battle dress equipped units. The throw-away missile is introduced, incorporating televisual guidance and visual as well as inertial target location.	The first damper fields are introduced, enabling limited neutralization of incoming nuclear warheads. The fusion Y gun is introduced in the direct fire role, with the light plasma B gun taking over point defense. Gravitic compensators enable the heaviest fusion guns to fire on the move, and long-range direct fire by fusion guns executing popup maneuvers becomes standard.	The first damper fields allow protracted storage and transportation of elements with short half-lives. The first major use of the damper field militarily is to enable the manufacture, storage, and transportation of 2 cm californium rounds, fired from auto-cannon mounts in remotely piloted drones. Each round is hollow and collapses on impact, the collapsed round having sufficient mass to go critical, thus causing a small nuclear explosion. More conventional gunships mount plasma C guns or fusion X guns along with missiles.
14	A higher proportion of the infantry is equipped with battle dress, and the standard small arm for such troops becomes the PGMP-13.	At the squad level the PGMP-14 replaces the PGMP-12, while battle dress equipped units receive the FGMP-14 in place of the PGMP-13.	Much more sophisticated dampers enable virtually complete protection of operational areas from nuclear warheads. The fusion Z gun is introduced in the direct fire role.	More sophisticated damper fields render the californium drones obsolete. Gunships now carry fusion Y guns or rapid pulse X guns.
15	Most infantry is by now equipped with battle dress and has converted to the FGMP-14. The gauss rifle remains the standard arm of non-powered troops.	The FGMP-15 becomes the standard squad support weapon.	The primary direct fire weapon becomes the battlefield meson accelerator. Although much smaller than meson accelerators used in planetary defense, it is still by battlefield standards large, bulky, and extremely lethal. By now, the standard point defense and direct support weapon becomes the fusion Y gun. Drone missiles enjoy an increase in use as the appearance of meson accelerators linked to an increasingly sophisticated computer target acquisition and fire direction system makes the long-range popup increasingly impractical	Gunships mounting rapid pulse X guns and heavier Z guns are virtually indistinguishable from orbital craft. Lower performance personnel carriers mount rapid pulse X and Y guns and missile systems.

Except they are calling grav tanks gunships so it really depends on how you see it is a grav vehicle a gunship or a tank? They travel and fight along side of the infantry so I’m going to cause them grav tanks

 

[Condottiere]

At a near peer level, anything that flies is going to be shot down.

 

[Zenny]

Based off recent combat, grav vehicles may be a dead end before they could be created. Turning on a grav engine is going to emit gravity waves that travel at the speed of light through well everything. So, you would "see" it even if there was a mountain between you and the tank. Proceed to pound the thing with advanced suicide drones that cost a fraction of the grav tank's cost. So a grav tank might be just a flashy thing you use against low tech natives for the propaganda movies back home.

 

[Condottiere]

Very nap of the earth, which would allow avoidance of most terrain obstacles.

In that sense, back to gunship, though highly armoured.

 

[tytalan]

Based off recent combat, grav vehicles may be a dead end before they could be created. Turning on a grav engine is going to emit gravity waves that travel at the speed of light through well everything. So, you would "see" it even if there was a mountain between you and the tank. Proceed to pound the thing with advanced suicide drones that cost a fraction of the grav tank's cost. So a grav tank might be just a flashy thing you use against low tech natives for the propaganda movies back home.

I’m not sure you could pinpoint or even detect a tanks grav drive in a planets gravity field.

 

[Zenny]

Well we can make detectors that can detect gravity waves now and we are no where even remotely close to making artificial gravity. So, I am guessing when we get the super duper science to make gravity drives, then detecting them will be a few orders of magnitude easier.

 

[ottarrus]

I’m not sure you could pinpoint or even detect a tanks grav drive in a planets gravity field.

No, but you can detect their power signatures. Neutrinos from fusion plants for example. BUT, you'd need to screen out your own vehicles' signatures.
At the end of the day, all the tech in Traveller is still gonna have to be confirmed by the Mk. I Eyeball.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Have you seen the size of neutrino detectors and gravity wave detectors?

Also however Traveller gravitics work there are a couple of obvious points:

they are not "real" gravity

they are perpetual motion machines

 

[tytalan]

Well we can make detectors that can detect gravity waves now and we are no where even remotely close to making artificial gravity. So, I am guessing when we get the super duper science to make gravity drives, then detecting them will be a few orders of magnitude easier.

We’ve detected two black holes colliding that’s not exactly saying we can detect a fluctuation in a gravity well.

 

[tytalan]

No, but you can detect their power signatures. Neutrinos from fusion plants for example. BUT, you'd need to screen out your own vehicles' signatures.
At the end of the day, all the tech in Traveller is still gonna have to be confirmed by the Mk. I Eyeball.

My guess is like today they will develop the ability to hide such signatures.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Have you seen the size of neutrino detectors and gravity wave detectors?

Also however Traveller gravitics work there are a couple of obvious points:

they are not "real" gravity

they are perpetual motion machines

Did you see the size of the first supercomputers? They took up a whole building. So saying neutrino and gravity wave detectors wouldn't get almost micro-scale small over the course of 3,000+ years just boggles the mind considering, real-life supercomputers went from building-sized to it fits in a closet, in less than 100 years.

As for Gravitics, if it doesn't artificially create or control some form of gravity, why call it gravitics? It has an effect visible with the naked eye, in the "real" world, therefore should be incredibly easy to detect, regardless of how the effect was achieved.

 

[MasterGwydion]

We’ve detected two black holes colliding that’s not exactly saying we can detect a fluctuation in a gravity well.

Yes, and We are roughly TL-8. Using TL-12 as the base for the technology in question compared to today's tech. How much could We detect at TL-4? Almost nothing beyond the visible spectrum at barely beyond the sight of the Mk I Eyeball. Given this and the future technologies of the OTU, detection should be easy. Here is a hint. You cannot manipulate something that you cannot detect. Not on purpose anyhow...lol...

 

[MasterGwydion]

My guess is like today they will develop the ability to hide such signatures.

This is already taken into account in the rules under TL of the ship or vehicle versus the TL of the sensors being used to detect said thing, plus Stealth Coatings, Emission Absorption Grids, etc.

 

[ottarrus]

My guess is like today they will develop the ability to hide such signatures.

Certainly. That's always part of warfare... identify a vulnerability, exploit it, they figure out the vulnerability and close the loophole, rinse-repeat.
But some things you can't develop concealment for. For example, radio waves. You broadcast in radio and it will be received by everyone with a radio receiver. That simply can't be helped. So you develop methods by which the actual message traffic is concealed... flooding the airwaves with nonsense signals, encrypting your message, using multiple decoy transmitters, etc.
Of course, a fusion generator is WAY more expensive than a radio transmitter, but you get the idea.
When I was a tank crewman back in the 80's, the Bundeswehr twigged on to the thermal sights that our Abrams were using. There was a time there when we really did own their asses in force-on-force exercises. And German Panzertruppen are a proud lot, for good reason. They tried using thermal blankets to conceal the heat signature of their Leopard engines. It didn't work, the US sighting system was **really** good compared to other models, but it was a pretty good idea.

 

[phavoc]

Historically we've seen the arrival of tanks, the invention of anti-tank weapons, the resurgence of tanks, the creation of new anti-tank weapons, and now tanks are on the rebound (point defense machineguns, etc).

Tanks are just one example of the cycle of warfare. When nuclear weapons bombs came out the big issue was intercepting the bombers. Then missile delivery systems started, then ICBM's which for a while didn't have much of a deterrent except MAD. Now we have ABM weaponry. Notice a pattern? There is no reason to think that the future will be any different than thousands of years of warfare. Every offensive weapon eventually gets countered.

 

[ottarrus]

Historically we've seen the arrival of tanks, the invention of anti-tank weapons, the resurgence of tanks, the creation of new anti-tank weapons, and now tanks are on the rebound (point defense machineguns, etc).

Tanks are just one example of the cycle of warfare. When nuclear weapons bombs came out the big issue was intercepting the bombers. Then missile delivery systems started, then ICBM's which for a while didn't have much of a deterrent except MAD. Now we have ABM weaponry. Notice a pattern? There is no reason to think that the future will be any different than thousands of years of warfare. Every offensive weapon eventually gets countered.

Well, the big invention with nuclear arsenals was the development of reliable and accurate sub-launched systems. From the minute the Allies captured a V2 and von Braun, NCA knew we were gonna put a nuke on it. But the sub capability came as a surprise when Rickover brought it to the JCS in '53.
Thereby instituting another theater of detection /counter-detection technological cycles.
But yeah, of such smaller steps are major leaps in tech level made....

 

[ottarrus]

Have you seen the size of neutrino detectors and gravity wave detectors?

Also however Traveller gravitics work there are a couple of obvious points:

they are not "real" gravity

they are perpetual motion machines

I don't know about 'perpetual motion machines' when we don't actually know of the technologies that are the basis for inertial compensators and lift gravitics. It's kind of like describing 'music out of a box' when you haven't discovered radio waves yet.

 

[Condottiere]

Solar powered grav tank.

 

[Sigtrygg]

I don't know about 'perpetual motion machines' when we don't actually know of the technologies that are the basis for inertial compensators and lift gravitics. It's kind of like describing 'music out of a box' when you haven't discovered radio waves yet.

Then think about energy transfer and you will understand.
Your music box analogy would only work if radio somehow broke the laws of physics.