Interstellar Trade

Vormaerin

Emperor Mongoose
(I wanted to belatedly move this discussion out of the scheduling thread)

There are a lot of factors to consider when deciding as an MC how interstellar trade actually works in your campaign. There should be interstellar trade in considerable volume. But it is not as straightforward as it seems, imho. The conditions of interstellar trade are quite different than maritime trade, even if you assume that gravitic technology makes surface to orbit transits no more costly than trains or trucks delivering to a maritime port.

Maritime trade is measured in TEUs. A TEU is 1360 cubic feet. A Traveller displacement ton is very close to 500 cubic feet. Trying to compare ships and cargo by tonnage is just impossible, because Traveller doesn't use mass/weight anywhere in starships, its all volume. A Galika class megafreighter is 50,000 TEUs (twice the capacity of any maritime ship in use today). And its also a midsized cruise liner in terms of passenger capacity.

The question is not whether that much trade exists. It does. The question is how often it makes sense to ship it that way.

The Port of Honolulu seems like a reasonable proxy for a pop 6 world and it handles about 1 million TEU a year, scattered over about 4000 ships (3/4 are inter-island domestic shipping, though). The largest freighter it handles is about 10,000 dtons of cargo space. There's no way Galika makes sense for a pop 6 planet unless you imagine trade is one big ship a month and just locale trade the rest of the month. That is as possible trade concept that could work.

The United Kingdom is a pop 7 region (though it cheats a bit by having some cross channel trucking trade :p). It handles about 10 million TEU a year, but its scattered over a number of ports, the largest of which (Felixstowe) handles a bit under 4 million TEUs a year. Now you could have a Galika engage in round trip trade (ie visit once a month) without it absorbing the entirety of the planet's trade. The planet would still be structured to be utterly dependent on that one ship not breaking down.

Once you get to the hi pop planets, you could see sustaining that kind of ship trade in terms of the volume involved.

You still have infrastructure problems. You have to have a A or B starport, because ships that size are not gonna land on the planet. So your space port complex will have to be ENORMOUS so you can take in this ship, unload its cargo, transship to the feeder ships that will take down to the surface or out to the secondary locations in the system. You have to either have that much warehousing on your space station or the ability to directly ship to the cargo barges moving it elsewhere.

Twenty smaller freighters (10k) would be more expensive on the shipping side, but dramatically cheaper on the starport infrastructure side of things. And they would be able to run to smaller worlds profitably, as well as making those planets less dependent on a single ship arrival.

You could also replace the Galika with a large jump ship that carries a lot of smaller freighters that can spread around the star system and land at downports. Again, making infrastructure at the planet vastly easier.

What works for interstellar trade in your game is going to depend on the assumptions you make about how big your spaceports are, how many secondary settlements exist in your star systems, and what kind of domestic trade and production your planets have compared to what's profitable to import. There's a pretty wide variety of viable solutions given the relative lack of hard data provided by an entirely fictional universe. :)
 
Has to be scheduled at large scale, and I tend to think entrepot and hinterland, so hub and spoke.

Medium would be like railways.

Small scale country roads, and likely feeder.
 
In the real world, it is the port, not the ship, that is the stress point. If you assume that your trade all flows through the high port, then you have two choke points, the high port and the downport.

The port of Rotterdam released a report on the impact of the new 24k TEU standard ships some years back. It estimated that handling a single ship required 8 trains, 200 trucks, 38 barge calls, and 5 feeder ship calls. And that's because they aren't expecting the entire 24k to turnover at Rotterdam. And, no matter what assumptions you make about technology, spaceports are going to be more constrained than maritime ports in terms of space.

Honolulu Harbor has over five linear miles of berthing space and 200 acres of container yard. And that's for a port that doesn't need a railhead, because everything out of the port is local distribution via truck.

When you are designing your trade model, figure out what you want your starports to look like first. Then figure out the shipping that would work with that. Is it one massive death star station floating over your planet? Is it a network of specialized stations? Do you have secondary highports for dedicated types of ships? Are there other locations in the system that justify starships going directly to them?
 
We do have an extra dimension.

For passenger traffic, closest to the primary planet; for freight, they could have a terminal in Jupiter orbit, or more.

Infrastructure has lots of space for expansion.
 
In the real world, it is the port, not the ship, that is the stress point. If you assume that your trade all flows through the high port, then you have two choke points, the high port and the downport.

The port of Rotterdam released a report on the impact of the new 24k TEU standard ships some years back. It estimated that handling a single ship required 8 trains, 200 trucks, 38 barge calls, and 5 feeder ship calls. And that's because they aren't expecting the entire 24k to turnover at Rotterdam. And, no matter what assumptions you make about technology, spaceports are going to be more constrained than maritime ports in terms of space.

Honolulu Harbor has over five linear miles of berthing space and 200 acres of container yard. And that's for a port that doesn't need a railhead, because everything out of the port is local distribution via truck.

When you are designing your trade model, figure out what you want your starports to look like first. Then figure out the shipping that would work with that. Is it one massive death star station floating over your planet? Is it a network of specialized stations? Do you have secondary highports for dedicated types of ships? Are there other locations in the system that justify starships going directly to them?
I use the Highport for Freight and the Low Port for Trade. The idea being the local trade will be close to the manufacturing and the living quarters. For my fake economics I posit that the gravity technology of Traveller makes it easy for independent Traders to turn a profit. This gives player characters with their ships a reason to trade. Subsidized Merchants are used, (borrowing a Traveller wiki quote), because" many world-states find it worthwhile to subsidize such trade to ensure its reliability and avoid the vagaries of the interstellar economy."
 
IMHO, with lifter tech there's little reason for a large world not to have downports all over the world, limited mainly by population and terrain. Small starships in traveller don't require significantly more infrastructure than an international airport. The demand won't be there to make them as common as airports, of course. If your planet is pop 6 or less, there's probably only one downport. But for higher pop planets, there's probably several. Maybe as much as a dozen on a high pop world with a lot of interstellar trade.
 
Each of which would have a fifteen megastarbux plus jump drive.

That seems to be like a point to point business jet, if passenger, and might not be a Star(down)port, but rather a spaceport.
 
The distinction between spaceport and starport is basically negligible. The reason why you have multiple downports is the same reason you have multiple container ports. You will save a lot of money by having your subsidized liners and tramp traders landing directly at the down port. And if your trade is above a certain volume or your population is sufficiently dispersed, having multiple downports will be more efficient than one huge monstrosity.

Personally, I think that freight liners in the high volume systems would be jump ships carrying a large number of smaller 'freight riders'. That lets you jump into the system and send cargo out to all the different ports, mainworld or secondary world, directly. Instead of having everything have to get transshipped through a highport. Those lighters will not need jump drives and they can be streamlined.

Your big ship jumps into the Sol system, it launches the lighters. The lighters head for the various high and down ports around Terra, as well as some heading for Mars or Luna or Jovian moon colonies. No need to be unloaded onto the high port and then reloaded on another ship. Fuel tankers refuel the main ship, new lighters are already on the way to dock for the next jump. Faster turnaround times on the big ships, less infrastructure needed at every port since you could concentrate the maintenance and docking of the massive ships.

Its not the only way it could work, certainly. But the focus needs to remain on the ports. Every ginormous ship needs an even more ginormous port to deal with it. The port is always the bottleneck, not the shipping.
 
The distinction between spaceport and starport is basically negligible. The reason why you have multiple downports is the same reason you have multiple container ports. You will save a lot of money by having your subsidized liners and tramp traders landing directly at the down port. And if your trade is above a certain volume or your population is sufficiently dispersed, having multiple downports will be more efficient than one huge monstrosity.

Personally, I think that freight liners in the high volume systems would be jump ships carrying a large number of smaller 'freight riders'. That lets you jump into the system and send cargo out to all the different ports, mainworld or secondary world, directly. Instead of having everything have to get transshipped through a highport. Those lighters will not need jump drives and they can be streamlined.

Your big ship jumps into the Sol system, it launches the lighters. The lighters head for the various high and down ports around Terra, as well as some heading for Mars or Luna or Jovian moon colonies. No need to be unloaded onto the high port and then reloaded on another ship. Fuel tankers refuel the main ship, new lighters are already on the way to dock for the next jump. Faster turnaround times on the big ships, less infrastructure needed at every port since you could concentrate the maintenance and docking of the massive ships.

Its not the only way it could work, certainly. But the focus needs to remain on the ports. Every ginormous ship needs an even more ginormous port to deal with it. The port is always the bottleneck, not the shipping.
This is similar to the old LASH concept. It was postulated to be cheaper for barge traffic since you could just pick up and drop off your LASH barges. But over time it was found to be more expensive since you had to maintain them all at a higher maintenance level.

I'd think the idea of transporting smaller transports as cargo would be similar. While more flexible, you'd be shipping multiple reactors, fuel and staterooms in every ship instead of cargo. Plus there would be more crew zpread amongst more ships. Straight up cargo would give you more capacity at same cost. Smaller ships would have to charge more per ton to offset those costs.

The only way it might make sense would be because jump engines are very rare/expensive. That might offset the lost cargo capacity.

A modern dock can unload the biggest container ship in 24hrs - but of course the infrastructure has to be there, the trailers, trucks and space to put your containers to make all that work. You can efficiently design a spaceship to do the same, just takes some planning and forethought.
 
Space isn't like the ocean, though. You can't jump straight from Regina to Rhylanor like you can sail from Rotterdam to Shanghai. And the fuel requirements for jumping are enormous. You are refueling every jump.

Ocean liners also have the ability to go straight to another container port that suits them. Starliners don't get to do that. There is only 2 class B or better destinations within Jump 2 of Regina and one of those has a small population. Whereas LASH can be exchanged as the main ship continues. You have to have the lighters either way.

If you want to have space stations that are as large as a container port, you can do that. The economics are entirely made up. If you want to unload your Galika at the high port (it can't land on the planet), then you need 136,000 dtons of warehousing for that cargo. Or the ability to drive it straight from the Galika to the ships that are going to take it down to the planet or out to Mars and the Jovian moons.

As I said, it all comes down to what you think is reasonable for your space port. If you think the highport is like the Death Star in size with vast amounts of warehousing, docking for its own lighters, and the crew space, sure. That's definitely a way to go. But the number of routes where there's an A/B starport at both ends is less than you would think. And even rarer if the planet is expected to be high population.

If you aren't doing LASH, you are probably running a lot more smaller hulls that each have to have jump drives. And that means they need more engineers, ASTROGATORS, and stewards overall.

However, my point is not that my way is the best way. Its that there are multiple ways that make sense given what little information we have about space trade economics.
 
Maybe its somewhere in the middle.

When I was a kid the very first Avalon Hill game I ever played was Luftwaffe - a strategic level game of Allied bombing operations over Western Europe. One of the hints for the Allied player was to have your bombers travel in large groups as far as possible (defensive bonuses would stack against the Axis fighters) and then split up “like fireworks” to hit several targets (cities) over a somewhat broad area.

So maybe huge freighters like the Galika class set aside some cargo space for loaded Free Traders to hitch a ride. On the trip from the 100D limit they disembark and set a course for the underserved systems nearby, or even in-system destinations, depending on what’s selling right now.

You all can decide for yourselves if it costs your adventurers the going rate for 200 tons cargo plus incidentals - or more - to hitch that ride…
 
@Jakovian

On the subject of measurements.. A TEU is generally considered to hold 24 metric tons. A TEU is 1360 cubic feet, whereas a Traveller dton is about 500 cubic feet. So a Fat Trader can carry about 1800 metric tons.

As far as fuel being cheap, that's true for planet side and even intrasolar system travel. It is not particularly true of interstellar travel. The Galika megafreighter in High Guard uses 20k dtons of fuel per parsec travelled in jump (vs 500ish for a month of real world operation). So that's MCr2 per 1 hex travelled, assuming that they spend the extra days in system to process unrefined fuel instead of paying for refined fuel and not needing a couple days to process it (which would cost MCr10 per parsec).

As I pointed out above, Honolulu (which has no land trade, pure shipping) "only" does a bit over a million TEU annually and all on fairly small liners. In terms of capacity, the largest freighter coming into Honolulu is just under 10,000 dtons of cargo. So probably 15000 dtons once you tack the ship part onto it, assuming its jump 1 or jump 2.

I think I addressed the rest of your questions earlier in the thread, but if you have more or I missed something, I'm happy to continue the discussion. Its not that I'm against big trade. But the infrastructure for it is a lot more complicated than it appears. And it everything you ship to another star system has to be something that they can't make on planet or in their own solar system. Because flying around the solar system is cheap. Jumping is absolutely not.
 
@Jakovian

On the subject of measurements.. A TEU is generally considered to hold 24 metric tons. A TEU is 1360 cubic feet, whereas a Traveller dton is about 500 cubic feet. So a Fat Trader can carry about 1800 metric tons.

As far as fuel being cheap, that's true for planet side and even intrasolar system travel. It is not particularly true of interstellar travel. The Galika megafreighter in High Guard uses 20k dtons of fuel per parsec travelled in jump (vs 500ish for a month of real world operation). So that's MCr2 per 1 hex travelled, assuming that they spend the extra days in system to process unrefined fuel instead of paying for refined fuel and not needing a couple days to process it (which would cost MCr10 per parsec).

As I pointed out above, Honolulu (which has no land trade, pure shipping) "only" does a bit over a million TEU annually and all on fairly small liners. In terms of capacity, the largest freighter coming into Honolulu is just under 10,000 dtons of cargo. So probably 15000 dtons once you tack the ship part onto it, assuming its jump 1 or jump 2.

I think I addressed the rest of your questions earlier in the thread, but if you have more or I missed something, I'm happy to continue the discussion. Its not that I'm against big trade. But the infrastructure for it is a lot more complicated than it appears. And it everything you ship to another star system has to be something that they can't make on planet or in their own solar system. Because flying around the solar system is cheap. Jumping is absolutely not.
Fuel for interstellar travel is expensive for such poor souls as our players ;) When we talk about large-scale transport, where fuel begins to cost in the millions or billions of credits per year, it pays to build infrastructure for fuel extraction for own needs. No one in their right mind would try to extract hydrogen from gas giants with ships of 20,000 tons with jump engines, because the potential loss of the ship would be too costly. In my opinion, installations will be created on small moons around gas giants, where there will be a fuel base, service of smaller units dealing only with hydrogen extraction, and huge transshipment warehouses (it is cheaper to build something on the surface of a moon than to build a space station).
Transshipment - in my opinion, large ships would have detachable modules, something like ECITS (POD Companion p. 214), for example, of a standard 50, 100, 250 tons. The ship flies up to the system, several dozen small ships take modules from it, fuel modules and new goods are loaded and the ship is able to make another jump within 24 hours. Unloaded modules can already be transported by smaller ships to Highport/Downport, or they can be warehouse modules on some space stations, which are nothing more than a large skeleton or on planets without an atmosphere.
 
So, I envision the logistics of transport as follows:
1) Large merchant ships jump from one system to a gas giant and then to the next. There they are quickly refueled at local facilities and make another jump.
2) Similarly large merchant ships, but without Jump engines, transport goods close to the main planet.
3) The modules (100-500t) are taken over by smaller ships and go to:
a) Warehouses on the moon of the planet or orbital stations,
b) The main port, if the cargo is key and expensive,
c) Directly to smaller ports on the planet if these are raw materials for production or machinery.

Adventure Seeds:
a) Piracy in the inner sectors of the empire (Fornast?) could involve pretending to be smaller transshipment ships and stealing containers of goods,
b) Players might try to impersonate corporation ships to steal fuel from transshipment stations (who would notice the loss of 500 tons of fuel when 50,000 tons are moved daily?)
c) The players are to steal something from one of the many containers that are stored in the giant corporate warehouses or on such a large transport ship.
 
I was just calculating with my player how many tons of apples fit into 1 dT - it turns out to be about 1680 tons. Unloading, splitting, and transporting 30,000 dT containers to their final destination would be heavy. It would be easier to divide them into 300x100 dt.
The problem is also with warehousing, transhipment, etc.
 
Sure, you can imagine all that infrastructure and you can decide that all that infrastructure is cheaper than using smaller ships. No one knows, since we don't have any examples. :D Your example invents a lot of infrastructure that isn't in the data. Basically, this system's starport is class D or class C because that's what is available to the public, not what is actually present in the system. That is a legitimate extrapolation, though its a pretty extreme change in the player experience. It definitely puts you firmly on the 'no' side of the age old debate about whether or not piracy can actually work in Traveller, since there will be protection for these billions of credits of deep space infrastructure.

But, essentially, that was my point from the beginning. There are a number of ways that you can do interstellar trade. And the core factor is how you have your ports set up. And what you think is valuable enough to ship that far.
 
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