More random economics thoughts - Starport Docking Fees

Trade is another one of those areas that really deserves some explanation. GURPS books have some great details in there. Essentially PC's who aren't known or vetted in an area are at a huge disadvantage for the regular cargo runs or even on-the-spot markets since space is so much bigger than a single nation (or even a planet). That's where having a bonding authority is handy so PC's can flash their certificate and shippers have at least some comfort that they are legit. Otherwise it's like Craigslist for shipping... :) I wrote something up for that and I THINK I sent it in to Freelance Traveller (I know I got some great feedback from JeffZ on it).

The type of trade that Han Solo engaged in (in the first movie at least) was more smuggling - the Falcon was far too small to engage in much more than very small cargo runs or speculative trading. In the books they actually do some legitimate cargo runs in the Corporate Sector, but for the most part appears more hassle than he would normally make from smuggling. Getting jobs in bars and such is probably going to be, at best, borderline legal or worse.

Now speculative trading is the wild card - but if it's wildly profitable then everyone will be in on it and the markets would collapse down to something closer to normal (or worse). That's just how trade works. So long as one can spot market fluctuations ahead of the established players there's some opportunity there - but also lots of risk. Few books or games really go much into it unless it's supposed to be a major plot point of the story. Cherryh covered trade rather well in her Merchanter series books - as well as laying the explanatory groundwork for the why and how it worked (and sometimes didn't for the merchants). But most have regular cargo runs to pay the base bills while speculation is something they indulge in on the side.

I'm not quite sure how to model all this in a game except to inject perhaps more risks into the speculatory side.
 
I don't think you have to model it with mechanics. You just need to explain that the actual trade table is your GM fallback for when you don't have a cool adventure on the planet and just want to resolve it with a quick random roll. In the other thread I talked about how the CT merchant adventures pretty much always had an adventure in place of the speculation roll. You want a good price on Posonby's Velvet? Funny how that leads you into this problem... Shucks. Your cargo of fireworks for the festivals of HappyFunPlace would have sold for a lot, but there's a bit of a plague going on here. You wanna help with that so everyone's in the mood for fireworks again or move on and hope you can sell your fireworks on the next planet?

How to lace rumor tables with good (and bad) trade information about what's popular at some planet or the other. Apparently the Space Amish of Penn IV need a lot of wood to rebuild after some severe storms. Unfortunately, they can only pay in artistically knitted sweaters, so not getting much takers." "Wait, didn't we here at the starport on Popsicle that they've recently gotten a load of underequipped colonists dumped on them by a fraudulent colonization corp?"

The mechanics are already there. The advice on actually using them isn't.
 
Trade is another one of those areas that really deserves some explanation. GURPS books have some great details in there. Essentially PC's who aren't known or vetted in an area are at a huge disadvantage for the regular cargo runs or even on-the-spot markets since space is so much bigger than a single nation (or even a planet). That's where having a bonding authority is handy so PC's can flash their certificate and shippers have at least some comfort that they are legit. Otherwise it's like Craigslist for shipping... :) I wrote something up for that and I THINK I sent it in to Freelance Traveller (I know I got some great feedback from JeffZ on it).

The type of trade that Han Solo engaged in (in the first movie at least) was more smuggling - the Falcon was far too small to engage in much more than very small cargo runs or speculative trading. In the books they actually do some legitimate cargo runs in the Corporate Sector, but for the most part appears more hassle than he would normally make from smuggling. Getting jobs in bars and such is probably going to be, at best, borderline legal or worse.

Now speculative trading is the wild card - but if it's wildly profitable then everyone will be in on it and the markets would collapse down to something closer to normal (or worse). That's just how trade works. So long as one can spot market fluctuations ahead of the established players there's some opportunity there - but also lots of risk. Few books or games really go much into it unless it's supposed to be a major plot point of the story. Cherryh covered trade rather well in her Merchanter series books - as well as laying the explanatory groundwork for the why and how it worked (and sometimes didn't for the merchants). But most have regular cargo runs to pay the base bills while speculation is something they indulge in on the side.

I'm not quite sure how to model all this in a game except to inject perhaps more risks into the speculatory side.
Yeah. Trade is complicated in real life. Simplifying it down to something that can be used in a RPG, trade is not a trade-focused game, is pretty much impossible. Even if some of the stuff was only for world-building, it is just too complicated. Hell, just the currency conversion rates between systems of differing TLs melted My brain. Out of the GURPS book, I basically only used the basic trade rules, the trade route info, and the starport info.
 
I don't think you have to model it with mechanics. You just need to explain that the actual trade table is your GM fallback for when you don't have a cool adventure on the planet and just want to resolve it with a quick random roll. In the other thread I talked about how the CT merchant adventures pretty much always had an adventure in place of the speculation roll. You want a good price on Posonby's Velvet? Funny how that leads you into this problem... Shucks. Your cargo of fireworks for the festivals of HappyFunPlace would have sold for a lot, but there's a bit of a plague going on here. You wanna help with that so everyone's in the mood for fireworks again or move on and hope you can sell your fireworks on the next planet?

How to lace rumor tables with good (and bad) trade information about what's popular at some planet or the other. Apparently the Space Amish of Penn IV need a lot of wood to rebuild after some severe storms. Unfortunately, they can only pay in artistically knitted sweaters, so not getting much takers." "Wait, didn't we here at the starport on Popsicle that they've recently gotten a load of underequipped colonists dumped on them by a fraudulent colonization corp?"

The mechanics are already there. The advice on actually using them isn't.
You are talking about random rolls for when there is a lull in the game. You are talking about adventure writing. We are talking about world-building. They are not the same thing. If I random roll everything to define everything, you will just have a mess, like most of the randomly generated Sectors in Charted Space. Most of them make no sense, and We as players and Referees and writers have to do some pretty damn amazing mental gymnastics to even have it remotely make sense. Things like that, should be the exception, not the rule. Hence, world-building discussion, not adventure dynamics discussion.
 
I'm not quite sure how to model all this in a game except to inject perhaps more risks into the speculatory side.

@MasterGwydion

The above post is the one I was responding to. That sounds like a mechanics discussion to me. Leastwise, I don't see how you "world build" more risks into the speculatory side.
 
@MasterGwydion

The above post is the one I was responding to. That sounds like a mechanics discussion to me. Leastwise, I don't see how you "world build" more risks into the speculatory side.
I usually apply a profit tax. That helps bring down the money out of the stratosphere, but it doesn't help much. Same way portside brokers charge a 10% of gross above baseline fee. Seeing how money moves is worldbuilding. It allows Me to know what is possible and what is not. If there were no rules for Jump Drives, I would have a very hard time worldbuilding a universe that used Jump Drives.
 
Okay. I have lots of threads on this forum about world building for economics, so I fully understand that. I just feel that using the player facing speculation rules (including TCs) is a very rickety scaffold on which to build, because it doesn't address 90% of the economic activity (ie what's done by real mercantile companies).

I get that it is the only "mechanic" that we have. Just keep in mind you are trying to build Call of Duty with only rules for how pistols work. I also strongly feel that the way trade would look in the Trojan Reaches is rather different than it would look in the Spinward Marches and be hardly recognizable compared to trade in the Core because of the differing volumes and levels of organizations.

I'm not you and I'm not going to tell you what will work for you. But when i world built the trade for my campaign, I basically ignored the trade codes because I don't feel like they tell me much of anything. What does Non Industrial tell me that the low pop value doesn't? Nothing. Does every pop 5 world need the exact same things? I don't think so.

I feel like the facts that matter for traveller trade are: 1) Jump 1 & 2 are significantly more profitable than 3+. 2) Jump prevents super tight scheduling or knowing the best prices between two similar worlds 3) The more a regular freighter with a full crew jumps, the more profitable it is. 4) Basically any amount of in system travel is cheaper than micro jumping (unless you use the 1000D limit), so commercial jump ships won't be making interplanetary runs.

In my campaign, I don't have ships above 600 dtons that land on planets. 1 to 5k dton ships are the most efficient (my campaign is not inside the Imperium, so I don't believe that those massive megafreighters would make sense or be affordable), but they require some way to get the cargo to the surface if there is no high port.

So I wrote a few paragraph sketch of what each world was like. That way I knew what was important to each world. What its port rating meant. What does it produce that other worlds desire, what does it import in particular? What distinguishes *this* world from every other Industrial TC world in the region? How different are they than the High Pop worlds that are classed as "pre-Rich" instead of Industrial solely because you can breath their atmospheres without assistance? Does any world have unique trade goods? Is that the only world in the region to produce natural zuchai crystals? Anagathics? Psi drugs? Are their fresh fruits shipped in giant low berths? Is this world Amish and just not want your industrial products, period?

Are there any worlds with F type stars where the star's 100D limit might be farther out than the planet's? If there is a long run in from the star's 100D limit to the mainworld, that's gonna distort trade to that world. Conversely, is the main world some asteroid that you can practically arrive on top of?

Then I looked at what are the J1 or J2 routes between the big high pop planets? I explain why any worlds on that route have substandard facilities. Or just flat out put space stations for refueling away from the planet and say the crap rating is the world's immediate environs. And make those facilities private, requiring membership in the GeDeCo fanclub or whatever. I also flagged any worlds that are starved for trade because of distance, political problems, lack of goods, etc. I never really found any value in giving ratings to the feeder routes. Anywhere that isn't "main trade route" or "what's trade?" is like whatever, unless it is a hub for your campaign.

I use the jump accuracy that's in the companion or JTAS article (forget which). So the majority of ships coming to a given world arrive in roughly the same box of space. Ships *can* arrive somewhere else, but commercial ships aren't going to because that'll cost money and/or increase risk.

In the Reaches, you may have worlds just no one goes to and they are struggling to get needed supplies. In a more civilized region like the Marches, they'd probably have at least a subsidized merchant bringing necessities, if not a full fledged minor company or group of companies.

Once I've made the worlds in my play area unique and figured out the general flow of trade, I figure out who is actually carrying that trade. Government ships? Specific merchant companies? Subsidized merchants? What are the merchant companies and what are the typical ships? Do ships run around solo or do convoys happen? How much trade collusion is there? Are there weak links on the trade route that might work for piracy? How do merchants deal with that?

You may have a different experience, but I found no value in the player trade mechanics for purposes of this world building. So I didn't worry about it. How Jump works is the main mechanic that actually affects things, imho.
 
I think the core of the difference of opinion is whether a brief player facing mechanic can be (for lack of a better word) sophisticated enough to also be a helpful world building tool.

I'm personally on the side of yes, it can. But I understand there are two things that limit this, and so I understand those who say the answer is no, it can't.

The first limit is that there has to be enough nuance and granularity to provide variety and depth across thousands of different uses. A random encounter table that rolls d66 would never have enough variety, but if you've got 20 different random encounter tables based on planet type, including nested tables for soecial circumstances, it certainly might. (In my opinion, the careers in character creation are pretty close; there are a few problems, particularly with high ranked military, and volumes of who goes in to what career, but otherwise, it's a strong basis for world building despite obviously being designed for character creation)

The second limit is that after it has nuance and granularity, the system needs to enhance world building, not stifle creativity. I believe the spec trading actually works very well in this regard, as it has broad enough cargo categories to be a catalyst, while not pinning the game master down with the idea that apples must exist.


Obviously getting those two limits right, is very very hard. But, I definitely think the trade rule system in the core rulebook has the potential to do it. There's plenty of space within the rules for nuance and granularity, without stifling creativity. While it may be difficult, I do think the rules could be tweaked (not completely redesigned) to be much better for world building, while remaining a player facing system primarily aimed at adventure enhancement.
 
Planetary descriptions would be macroeconomics.

Players would tend to get involved in microeconomics.

And transactions.
 
Planetary descriptions would be macroeconomics.

Players would tend to get involved in microeconomics.

And transactions.
Nah. Good planetary descriptions offer background info and nuggets of interesting facts (and trivia). It sets the stage. GM's and players use their imagination to lay the rest of the groundwork.

I appreciate the effort authors put into their descriptions and explanations for the 'why' of the planet or station and the backgrounds they have developed. I think the old Greyhawk boxed set did an excellent job of giving you gobs of places across a map in which you could put your adventure, with just enough data that told you about the local area and any major cities. Everything else was left up to the GM (or players) to flesh out to the extent that they choose for it to be needed.

It is possible to find a good middle ground that works for most if a modicum of effort is made.
 
Okay. I have lots of threads on this forum about world building for economics, so I fully understand that. I just feel that using the player facing speculation rules (including TCs) is a very rickety scaffold on which to build, because it doesn't address 90% of the economic activity (ie what's done by real mercantile companies).

I get that it is the only "mechanic" that we have. Just keep in mind you are trying to build Call of Duty with only rules for how pistols work. I also strongly feel that the way trade would look in the Trojan Reaches is rather different than it would look in the Spinward Marches and be hardly recognizable compared to trade in the Core because of the differing volumes and levels of organizations.
I agree with a lot of this, but the speculation rules are not used by the big boys. (not much anyhow) The reason for this is the limits placed on how much spec cargo ports are willing to buy at a time. I use the same rule for how much is available to buy for how much is available to sell as well. The big boys primarily rely on shipping other people's goods for a flat rate. Now this rate should be different for each ship, because the running costs versus cargo capacity are different from ship to ship. Currently the rules do not cover this. Myself or Geir could probably write a simple mechanic that does this, but currently it does not exist. Just this little rule change would vastly improve the Trade System in Traveller.

Add up your operating expenses for 1 week in jumpspace and one week in normal space. Divide that by a % of your cargo capacity (80 or 90% or so.) times the cost per jump. In Traveller, it is 1,000Cr per ton per jump 1. This would give you a new price for shipping a ton of cargo, one jump. This allows for the granularity, while still keeping things simple. This calculation is done once per ship, prior to it's construction and does not change unless the ship is refitted changing its characteristics. Simple. Easy. Flexible for players and Referees alike.

That is how you can use the Trade Rules to show how it works for the big boys as well as the tramp traders. Again simple. Easy. No extra rules for the big boys that don't apply to the tramps. All rules apply to everyone. Big boys just get the advantage of scale. (and negotiated tax breaks and such, but taxes and such aren't in the rules.) This would cover trade in the Marches as well as in Core. The only things that would change would be the ships carrying the cargo and the size of the ports of call.

Once you have this information, you can figure out a general idea of how trade flows at the Micro-scale as well as at the Macro-scale. Then you can figure out all of the different things both positive and negative which may effect these numbers, such as a war, Amber and Red Zones, Trade Treaties between governments, etc. This will allow you to do everything that you wish while still keeping the rules Player-facing.
I'm not you and I'm not going to tell you what will work for you. But when i world built the trade for my campaign, I basically ignored the trade codes because I don't feel like they tell me much of anything. What does Non Industrial tell me that the low pop value doesn't? Nothing. Does every pop 5 world need the exact same things? I don't think so.

I feel like the facts that matter for traveller trade are: 1) Jump 1 & 2 are significantly more profitable than 3+. 2) Jump prevents super tight scheduling or knowing the best prices between two similar worlds 3) The more a regular freighter with a full crew jumps, the more profitable it is. 4) Basically any amount of in system travel is cheaper than micro jumping (unless you use the 1000D limit), so commercial jump ships won't be making interplanetary runs.

In my campaign, I don't have ships above 600 dtons that land on planets. 1 to 5k dton ships are the most efficient (my campaign is not inside the Imperium, so I don't believe that those massive megafreighters would make sense or be affordable), but they require some way to get the cargo to the surface if there is no high port.

So I wrote a few paragraph sketch of what each world was like. That way I knew what was important to each world. What its port rating meant. What does it produce that other worlds desire, what does it import in particular? What distinguishes *this* world from every other Industrial TC world in the region? How different are they than the High Pop worlds that are classed as "pre-Rich" instead of Industrial solely because you can breath their atmospheres without assistance? Does any world have unique trade goods? Is that the only world in the region to produce natural zuchai crystals? Anagathics? Psi drugs? Are their fresh fruits shipped in giant low berths? Is this world Amish and just not want your industrial products, period?
I love this part here! It is not covered by the Trade Rules as it is too granular for rules in general, but I could see having a Trade Good, like Zuchai Crystals, or natural anagathics could give the world a +1 to their Importance Code, which would increase the amount of trade in a system over what the UWP would indicate. It would also likely lead to an increase in port size.
Are there any worlds with F type stars where the star's 100D limit might be farther out than the planet's? If there is a long run in from the star's 100D limit to the mainworld, that's gonna distort trade to that world. Conversely, is the main world some asteroid that you can practically arrive on top of?
Did Geir write an Efficiency Rule into his WBH? If so, lower or raise the efficiency due to Jump Shadow or lack thereof and call it done.
Then I looked at what are the J1 or J2 routes between the big high pop planets? I explain why any worlds on that route have substandard facilities. Or just flat out put space stations for refueling away from the planet and say the crap rating is the world's immediate environs. And make those facilities private, requiring membership in the GeDeCo fanclub or whatever. I also flagged any worlds that are starved for trade because of distance, political problems, lack of goods, etc. I never really found any value in giving ratings to the feeder routes. Anywhere that isn't "main trade route" or "what's trade?" is like whatever, unless it is a hub for your campaign.
Macro-scale trade route building is a pain in the ass currently. I love having them, but I hate building them. It is very time intensive to calculate every BTN for each world within 6 Jumps for J-1, J-2, and J-3 jump routes. That has to be done for each system individually, then you have to overlay all of the trade routes to see which overlap. If you have 3 routes of the same type moving along the same route between two worlds, increase to the next higher BTN to get the rough trade volume between routes of one jump in length, 1, 2, and 3. 4 as well, if it is on an X-boat route. (These rules came from GURPS Far Trader btw. So you know where I got them. lol.) A computer program could literally do all of this for Us in minutes, but I am not aware of one that exists for this purpose.
I use the jump accuracy that's in the companion or JTAS article (forget which). So the majority of ships coming to a given world arrive in roughly the same box of space. Ships *can* arrive somewhere else, but commercial ships aren't going to because that'll cost money and/or increase risk.

In the Reaches, you may have worlds just no one goes to and they are struggling to get needed supplies. In a more civilized region like the Marches, they'd probably have at least a subsidized merchant bringing necessities, if not a full fledged minor company or group of companies.

This all makes good sense to Me as well.
Once I've made the worlds in my play area unique and figured out the general flow of trade, I figure out who is actually carrying that trade. Government ships? Specific merchant companies? Subsidized merchants? What are the merchant companies and what are the typical ships? Do ships run around solo or do convoys happen? How much trade collusion is there? Are there weak links on the trade route that might work for piracy? How do merchants deal with that?

You may have a different experience, but I found no value in the player trade mechanics for purposes of this world building. So I didn't worry about it. How Jump works is the main mechanic that actually affects things, imho.



The reason you cannot find any value in the Trade Rules for worldbuilding is the writers stopped the description at the Micro-scale, but made all of the trade activity based on the Macro-scale. That is why I said in another post that the Trade Codes need to be changed to be more understandable and simpler, while being able to apply to both micro and macro scaled trade.

Everything you have done with figuring out who is carrying the cargo, what merchant companies are operating, typical ships sizes, solo or convoy, subbies or tramp traders, trade agreements, anti-pirate patrols, etc. This is all doable, because you already know the information that I am trying to generate. The only difference is that you are just creative writing. You are using no rules to do so. I do creative writing too for worldbuilding. The only difference that I create the framework with the rules, and then add the fluff details afterwards. I am not talking about table for random creation. I hate those. lol.

I don't know if the main mechanic of importance is jump, but it is definitely up there.
 
I'd dispute that it was just a "modicum" of effort. MasterGwydion is right that Traveller's fuzzy numbers don't make firm footing for extrapolation into hard mechanics. The difference of opinion is that he thinks the numbers should be firmed up and I think that the GURPS authors were just wrong to try to use them to extrapolate the way they did. :D

You could certainly rewrite Trade Codes into something that meant something on a larger scale. But they don't currently do that or even come close. They definitely don't provide any descriptive value or variation. Do we really think that a population of 500,000 couldn't exist with an extensive network of robofactories pumping out a vast array of industrial goods for export?

Victoria's tainted atmosphere is shirtsleeves at elevation, but poisonous in low lying areas. Craw's is low Oxygen content. Other world have native allergens. Some have atmospheric levels of gasses like Chlorine or Sulfur that are irritants rather than poisons, either naturally or because of human activity. Do we really think all those things would have the same effect on macroeconomics?
 
I'd dispute that it was just a "modicum" of effort. MasterGwydion is right that Traveller's fuzzy numbers don't make firm footing for extrapolation into hard mechanics. The difference of opinion is that he thinks the numbers should be firmed up and I think that the GURPS authors were just wrong to try to use them to extrapolate the way they did. :D

You could certainly rewrite Trade Codes into something that meant something on a larger scale. But they don't currently do that or even come close. They definitely don't provide any descriptive value or variation. Do we really think that a population of 500,000 couldn't exist with an extensive network of robofactories pumping out a vast array of industrial goods for export?
This is why I proposed altering the Trade Codes to be more useful. That is why I think Ag, In, Ni, and Na should only refer to if the system produces more or less than it needs to survive at its current population and TL. Hi Pop and Lo Pop should go away. This is already covered by the Population Code of the system. Rich and Poor should only alter the amount of goods available as having more or less money will control if you can buy more or less of a thing. Ht and Lt need to get in line. You need Ht to produce Advanced Goods. Advanced Goods are TL-11 through 15 Ht is TL-12+. As it is written currently, who produces the TL-11 Advanced Goods? Not TL-11 planets, just In code planets currently. Ideally, We should just use the TL UWP Code for this and get rid of Ht and Lt all together.

A Trade Code is already Macro-scale, but it is applied in a way that makes no sense at the Micro-scale. Use the changes I propose, and you will see that it works at Macro and Micro scales. All things become related in a usable, easy, and simple system that is very, very close to what We have currently.
Victoria's tainted atmosphere is shirtsleeves at elevation, but poisonous in low lying areas. Craw's is low Oxygen content. Other world have native allergens. Some have atmospheric levels of gasses like Chlorine or Sulfur that are irritants rather than poisons, either naturally or because of human activity. Do we really think all those things would have the same effect on macroeconomics?
With the rules, I see no reason why they should alter things. They already alter the cost of building structures which in turn increases basic maintenance costs, which then increase the cost of producing goods. This is not explicitly explained on the Macro-scale, but it is on the Micro-scale. So, + or - the Efficiency number by one and call it done. This can be written into the next update for Geir's WBH if everyone likes it. Then it is an actual rule and not a house rule. Rules should not restrain creativity; they should just provide the paints and fabric for the art to be created with.
 
If you have enough resources, you can manipulate the market.

That would be speculation, on a large scale.

Why?

Try short selling, and finding out you sold more shares than actually could feasibly be purchased, before the due date.
 
Everything you have done with figuring out who is carrying the cargo, what merchant companies are operating, typical ships sizes, solo or convoy, subbies or tramp traders, trade agreements, anti-pirate patrols, etc. This is all doable, because you already know the information that I am trying to generate. The only difference is that you are just creative writing. You are using no rules to do so. I do creative writing too for worldbuilding. The only difference that I create the framework with the rules, and then add the fluff details afterwards. I am not talking about table for random creation. I hate those. lol.
I personally think that GURPS Far Trader, while a well written book by an author with a good grasp of trade economics, was fundamentally flawed in conception. Because its trying to build its foundations on unsuitable materials. For instance, it tries to calculate Per Capita Income and bases it on TL and trade code. But Greece and Germany have widely different per capita incomes and I don't think you can say that Germany's TL is significantly higher than Greece's. Nor do Trade Codes as defined distinguish between them.

The entirety of their Travel value calculation is Pop + TL + Starport. Planet USA and Planet Brazil have the same Pop value and same TL value. Maybe you can say that the USA is an A port and Brazil is a C port (though it might be a B port, Santos is the 35th largest port in the world.) But that doesn't result in much difference in their WTN. Saying that Industrial planets would trade more with Non Industrial planets sounds sensible, but Ind and NI are just different labels for the pop figure.

BTN is the two worlds' WTN + a distance modifier. I guess its useful somehow to know that there are about 25 people in the process of making round trips between Earth and Glisten in any given year. :p Despite the fact that it is a year and a half each way at j4.

Though I don't think BTN is actually usable except in edge cases. It doesn't tell me how much trade there is in any given system unless I calculate the BTN for all the reasonable trade partners and add it up. AFAIK, it doesn't tell me ANYTHING about how much trade there is within the system rather than interstellar, unless you are supposed to calculate BTN for Terra to Mars or Terra to Ganymede?

Regardless, a lot of work for not a lot of value. (Not to mention the book admits multilateral trade will distort the actual BTNs, so they just ignore it).

UWP is intentionally not detailed enough to hang all the rest of an economic system on. Two worlds with identical UWPs will be very different once you zoom in, even without any fuzzy numbers. A pop 4 TL 10 garden world might be a giant tourist resort world where everyone lives on the starport and only camping trips happen on the surface. It might be a single township with light industry and agriculture that are highly mechanized. It might be wracked by violent electrical storms that keep everyone trapped in an arcology and associated mining sites. The idea that all three of those are the same WTN and TC does not make sense to me.

Or a situation like Terra in 2300, where the high pop world is balkanized and nation A trades with these planets, while Nation B trades with different planets and so on. I guess you could say that looks just like one high pop planetary government with free trade with all of them.

Don't get me wrong, there's a lot of good stuff in Far Trader. The sections on traffic control and jump shadows and all that are pretty handy. The Advanced trade discussions are interesting (at least, if you like that kind of thing) but I think a lot of mechanics for what NPCs do is not that useful. I'm sure there's players somewhere that wonder if their cargo is Free Alongside Ship or Delivered Free Domicile. But I've never met any.

You can make mechanics for interplanetary and interstellar trade that are robust. But I think it is far more than a tweak to do so from Traveller's mechanics.
 
I personally think that GURPS Far Trader, while a well written book by an author with a good grasp of trade economics, was fundamentally flawed in conception. Because its trying to build its foundations on unsuitable materials. For instance, it tries to calculate Per Capita Income and bases it on TL and trade code. But Greece and Germany have widely different per capita incomes and I don't think you can say that Germany's TL is significantly higher than Greece's. Nor do Trade Codes as defined distinguish between them.

The entirety of their Travel value calculation is Pop + TL + Starport. Planet USA and Planet Brazil have the same Pop value and same TL value. Maybe you can say that the USA is an A port and Brazil is a C port (though it might be a B port, Santos is the 35th largest port in the world.) But that doesn't result in much difference in their WTN. Saying that Industrial planets would trade more with Non Industrial planets sounds sensible, but Ind and NI are just different labels for the pop figure.

BTN is the two worlds' WTN + a distance modifier. I guess its useful somehow to know that there are about 25 people in the process of making round trips between Earth and Glisten in any given year. :p Despite the fact that it is a year and a half each way at j4.

Though I don't think BTN is actually usable except in edge cases. It doesn't tell me how much trade there is in any given system unless I calculate the BTN for all the reasonable trade partners and add it up. AFAIK, it doesn't tell me ANYTHING about how much trade there is within the system rather than interstellar, unless you are supposed to calculate BTN for Terra to Mars or Terra to Ganymede?

Regardless, a lot of work for not a lot of value. (Not to mention the book admits multilateral trade will distort the actual BTNs, so they just ignore it).

UWP is intentionally not detailed enough to hang all the rest of an economic system on. Two worlds with identical UWPs will be very different once you zoom in, even without any fuzzy numbers. A pop 4 TL 10 garden world might be a giant tourist resort world where everyone lives on the starport and only camping trips happen on the surface. It might be a single township with light industry and agriculture that are highly mechanized. It might be wracked by violent electrical storms that keep everyone trapped in an arcology and associated mining sites. The idea that all three of those are the same WTN and TC does not make sense to me.

Or a situation like Terra in 2300, where the high pop world is balkanized and nation A trades with these planets, while Nation B trades with different planets and so on. I guess you could say that looks just like one high pop planetary government with free trade with all of them.

Don't get me wrong, there's a lot of good stuff in Far Trader. The sections on traffic control and jump shadows and all that are pretty handy. The Advanced trade discussions are interesting (at least, if you like that kind of thing) but I think a lot of mechanics for what NPCs do is not that useful. I'm sure there's players somewhere that wonder if their cargo is Free Alongside Ship or Delivered Free Domicile. But I've never met any.

You can make mechanics for interplanetary and interstellar trade that are robust. But I think it is far more than a tweak to do so from Traveller's mechanics.
I just showed how simple it is. Why are you complicating it? WBH has the rules for WTN as well as Efficiency and Port Traffic.. CRB has the Trade Goods, UWPs, Trade Codes, as well as freight and passenger shipping, that only need minor tweaks. The information is already all there. With a few minor tweaks this system works at the micro-scale and at the macro-scale.
 
The UNREP system is not designed for civilian cargo it’s designed to resupply military vessels in space
“This is a system designed to allow for replenishment and
resupply of warships while in motion and is vital to the
function of squadrons in unexplored or hostile systems.
The system includes fuel hoses, cargo transfer tubes
and other gear designed to move ordnance and freight
between two ships (although only one of the ships is
required to carry the UNREP system).”
So I would say a couple of things
1 it’s not meant for use at a starport
2 why would you be running a trade route between two systems where you need 3 sound trips every 2 months.
 
I have to say this because of your statements elsewhere. What the rules are not absolute! 🙄
If you believe I said that, you need to go back and read My statement again. I said the exact opposite of that. I said rules are absolute in the game, but any rule that you don't like or that doesn't work at your table should be changed or thrown out, house ruled.
 
The UNREP system is not designed for civilian cargo it’s designed to resupply military vessels in space
“This is a system designed to allow for replenishment and
resupply of warships while in motion and is vital to the
function of squadrons in unexplored or hostile systems.
The system includes fuel hoses, cargo transfer tubes
and other gear designed to move ordnance and freight
between two ships (although only one of the ships is
required to carry the UNREP system).”
So I would say a couple of things
1 it’s not meant for use at a starport
2 why would you be running a trade route between two systems where you need 3 sound trips every 2 months.
More trips of cargo delivered = more money. Duh
 
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