Trade on the Hierate Route?

[Anstett]

The big companies likely have exclusive and/or extended contracts for certain products. The Hierate would want to have a steady reliably sourced supply.

Then the small local shipper brings in the 'meat of the month' from Paal or other locales for the fine dining experience.

 

[MonsterX]

You can buy Live Animals within a single J-2 of Tyokh. Paal-Tyokh. They sell for normal prices. So how could a mega-freighter expect to compete with those prices? One J-2 with normal buying a selling points or 6 jumps with a J-3 ship. Even if you double the selling price, the one jump J-2 route still makes more money. 1 month round trip versus 6 months round trip. Think of the crew costs alone. Little ship gets paid for 6 times his cargo space, while the big boy coming from the 3I only gets paid for his cargo space once.

What things sell for on the spec trading tables are not what producers pay to make the product, it is just what PCs are able to find on short notice for sale somewhere. Also, not every live animal is the same - there is a reason Kobe beef sells for a different price than factory farmed chicken, yet both are meat. Different types of animals can be grown on different planets - they won't always transplant at all, or at least not efficiently. If the customer base is affluent, and many Aslan are, then there will be market for many different kinds of live animals, with the differences both in taste and how interesting they are to hunt, being important. So for the producers, who own or charter these mega-freighters, they are looking at all costs from production to delivery to customers, and the shipping is not necessarily the biggest part. Nor are all the live animals necessarily worth the same when they get to market.

Also, producers on Paal-Tyoch might have hard limits (space, labour force, ecology, spaceport capacity) on how much they can expand their production - if so, food from far away sets the price level somewhat high, and the Paal-Tyoch small farmers get rich. They would have an incentive to expand, maybe, but if they can keep others from breaking in market they might also be happy just to let their animals sell at windfall prices and take the profits. Their competitors aren't making windfall profits in this scenario, but still would be in business.

The spec trading tables don't reflect this, because they are not designed to simulate complex economic systems, but just give us a workable trading sub-game - you can't reconcile it with the rest of the political economic system of Charted Space.

Anyways, a mega-freighter could be delivering 100000 tonnes of something while the little guy has 100 tonnes. Not unreasonable to think the big ship might be more than 6 times as efficient.

 

[Condottiere]

In theory, one cow per tonne, live.

Free range, probably two tonnes.

Cows may need commons.

 

[Nelphine]

Sure! In addition, for me this absolutely requires the development of nuanced trade goods that are different within a category. So, within live animals, there are actually hundreds or thousands or millions of types, only a handful of which are available on any given world.

So the j2 world sells cows, which is great. But no one nearby sells bison (and for sake of argument Tyokh loves Bison.) Both live animals, same value for trade, but not both available on every world that has live animals. So that's what the big freighter brings in at import (doubled) prices.

 

[J. L. Brown]

I made up a medium sized J-2 cargo ship for the big shippers. If it does three J-2 every month, and always jumps full of cargo (the advantage of belonging to a large shipping line with full-time brokers & regular runs) then it has costs of ~523 Cr per dTon. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vFQCYeGIe1H-_ncWyF6cAZ0bJKG6ZHkHap0N29NrBDU/edit?usp=sharing

If it needs to make 7 J-2's then assume (7x 523) = 3658 Cr pr dTon in raw costs. The mortgage payment might affect this; a large liner company might very well simply buy such a ship outright -- but that company will want a return on their investment, and that means paying back the money spent (plus interest) or it simply is not worth it for the company. If the company pays the freighter off when it is initially delivered, then the freighter commander is still beholden to the company for at least 240 (20 years of) 'mortgage' payments just to pay the ship off, and that provides no return to the company at all. Please do note that my design does have room for 100 Middle passengers, but they are not factored into the profitability of the ship -- every passenger who rides is bonus 'extra revenue'.

The question is why more-costly/distant livestock is in demand as compared to livestock from just a single J-2 away. I think a certain premium on 'exotic' goods might make sense, but there is no guidance on what is reasonable.

 

[Condottiere]

Chickens.

Factory farm ship.

Fresh eggs.

 

[MasterGwydion]

What things sell for on the spec trading tables are not what producers pay to make the product, it is just what PCs are able to find on short notice for sale somewhere. Also, not every live animal is the same - there is a reason Kobe beef sells for a different price than factory farmed chicken, yet both are meat. Different types of animals can be grown on different planets - they won't always transplant at all, or at least not efficiently. If the customer base is affluent, and many Aslan are, then there will be market for many different kinds of live animals, with the differences both in taste and how interesting they are to hunt, being important. So for the producers, who own or charter these mega-freighters, they are looking at all costs from production to delivery to customers, and the shipping is not necessarily the biggest part. Nor are all the live animals necessarily worth the same when they get to market.

Also, producers on Paal-Tyoch might have hard limits (space, labour force, ecology, spaceport capacity) on how much they can expand their production - if so, food from far away sets the price level somewhat high, and the Paal-Tyoch small farmers get rich. They would have an incentive to expand, maybe, but if they can keep others from breaking in market they might also be happy just to let their animals sell at windfall prices and take the profits. Their competitors aren't making windfall profits in this scenario, but still would be in business.

The spec trading tables don't reflect this, because they are not designed to simulate complex economic systems, but just give us a workable trading sub-game - you can't reconcile it with the rest of the political economic system of Charted Space.

Anyways, a mega-freighter could be delivering 100000 tonnes of something while the little guy has 100 tonnes. Not unreasonable to think the big ship might be more than 6 times as efficient.

All well and good, but the production rules in Traveller do not reflect this. Merchant Prince broke down each trade good into sub-goods with different prices, but that is as detailed as it ever got, as far as I am aware anyhow.

The production rules and the economic rules in Traveller just don't jibe very well. It makes running a merchant campaign very difficult, once the players decide to buy some land on a world and build his own mine.

 

[ColinD]

In my humble opinion, Trade is tough to gamify in a way that appeases players of Traveller that have a specific vision of how economics should work in the Third Imperium. As this Science Advisor article reports Economic Experiments are hard to replicate. Since you can't reset an economy like you can with chemistry or physics and try something different, iron clad laws are hard to come by. Adam Smith explained lots with 'an invisible hand".

The World Builder's Handbook is a great piece of work that I enjoy because you can get as complex or as simple as you want, with the author stating, "While these guidelines should be ‘good enough’ to simulate many aspects of a world’s details, they are not conclusive or limiting and may even be proven incorrect." and further "Referees are free to adapt or ignore any rolled results if doing so fits the world they are creating."

IMTU the economics are one that support the need for Adventure Class Ships , specifically Free Traders, Far Traders, and the new Volitant, Shadow Trader and Fast Smuggler. Megacorporations stick to safe areas and leave the more dangerous edges of the imperium to Travellers. I envision that governments in those areas need to subsidize for staples like Common Consumables, Common Ore and Textiles, hence the need for Subsidized Traders as, "the government subsidy making it possible to transport moderate-value consumer goods at competitive prices."

Again, this is IMTU and others have more complex economies that support different and larger sized ships. I enjoy reading about them and appreciate their world building. The players in my game are gaining wealth through freight, trade and passengers who don't want any "Imperial Entanglements" on their Far Trader. They are paying off their mortgage and are on their way to becoming powerful Merchants. Please, wish me luck that they continue to do so!

 

[MasterGwydion]

In my humble opinion, Trade is tough to gamify in a way that appeases players of Traveller that have a specific vision of how economics should work in the Third Imperium. As this Science Advisor article reports Economic Experiments are hard to replicate. Since you can't reset an economy like you can with chemistry or physics and try something different, iron clad laws are hard to come by. Adam Smith explained lots with 'an invisible hand".

The World Builder's Handbook is a great piece of work that I enjoy because you can get as complex or as simple as you want, with the author stating, "While these guidelines should be ‘good enough’ to simulate many aspects of a world’s details, they are not conclusive or limiting and may even be proven incorrect." and further "Referees are free to adapt or ignore any rolled results if doing so fits the world they are creating."

Simple, do not randomly roll up worlds. That is how We have the whole mess that is Charted Space. If the people who wrote up Charted Space used the "ignore what doesn't make sense" rule, then We would all be better off today.

IMTU the economics are one that support the need for Adventure Class Ships , specifically Free Traders, Far Traders, and the new Volitant, Shadow Trader and Fast Smuggler. Megacorporations stick to safe areas and leave the more dangerous edges of the imperium to Travellers. I envision that governments in those areas need to subsidize for staples like Common Consumables, Common Ore and Textiles, hence the need for Subsidized Traders as, "the government subsidy making it possible to transport moderate-value consumer goods at competitive prices."

Again, this is IMTU and others have more complex economies that support different and larger sized ships. I enjoy reading about them and appreciate their world building. The players in my game are gaining wealth through freight, trade and passengers who don't want any "Imperial Entanglements" on their Far Trader. They are paying off their mortgage and are on their way to becoming powerful Merchants. Please, wish me luck that they continue to do so!

Determining trade in the Charted Space Universe is easy. Find a 17th century map of the Caribbean with the major trade routes marked. See how they are distributed. This is an area that can only transport goods by ship in this time period. Railroads don't exist yet. Major overland routes don't exist yet. So, this most accurately shows how trade should work in Traveller, because almost all of the variables are the same. Major shippers hit only the big ports, by volume of goods, not by the size of the settlement. Little shippers hit the rest. Subbies cover wherever even the Tramp Traders don't want to go.

That is the easy part. Now that you have a map to use as a model, the hard part starts. Assigning number values to things in order to design a system for a game, not a simulation for trade, just a system for a game that doesn't ignore the realities on the map.

I use the Caribbean as the base design because, unlike other parts of the world that had shipping at that time, almost all of them include a large land-based transport contingent to get the items to the port or to transport to land-locked cities. These do not work as an example because Traveller can not have any "land-locked" planets. All planets are accessible with the right J-Drive.

The main problem with the economics of Charted Space, is that they did the same thing that you are doing. Making trade ACS-focused. Which is fine, as long as there is an economic reason for it. It is much more cost effective to use economies of scale, which would normally act against a system that prefers more smaller ships. Higher TL ships would also be more cost effective than lower TL ships, but that isn't taken into account in the trade rules for Traveller, but they are in the ship construction rules. That is the major disconnect that I see. The building rules were never designed to work with the trade rules. They should have been, but they were not, even though Trade is a major theme in Traveller.

 

[ColinD]

Simple, do not randomly roll up worlds. That is how We have the whole mess that is Charted Space. If the people who wrote up Charted Space used the "ignore what doesn't make sense" rule, then We would all be better off today.

Determining trade in the Charted Space Universe is easy. Find a 17th century map of the Caribbean with the major trade routes marked. See how they are distributed. This is an area that can only transport goods by ship in this time period. Railroads don't exist yet. Major overland routes don't exist yet. So, this most accurately shows how trade should work in Traveller, because almost all of the variables are the same. Major shippers hit only the big ports, by volume of goods, not by the size of the settlement. Little shippers hit the rest. Subbies cover wherever even the Tramp Traders don't want to go.

That is the easy part. Now that you have a map to use as a model, the hard part starts. Assigning number values to things in order to design a system for a game, not a simulation for trade, just a system for a game that doesn't ignore the realities on the map.

I use the Caribbean as the base design because, unlike other parts of the world that had shipping at that time, almost all of them include a large land-based transport contingent to get the items to the port or to transport to land-locked cities. These do not work as an example because Traveller can not have any "land-locked" planets. All planets are accessible with the right J-Drive.

The main problem with the economics of Charted Space, is that they did the same thing that you are doing. Making trade ACS-focused. Which is fine, as long as there is an economic reason for it. It is much more cost effective to use economies of scale, which would normally act against a system that prefers more smaller ships. Higher TL ships would also be more cost effective than lower TL ships, b

Your 17th Century Caribbean Cosmos sounds like a great setting! How many systems have you created for it? Also, if you have time, what type of Polities are there?

 

[MasterGwydion]

Your 17th Century Caribbean Cosmos sounds like a great setting! How many systems have you created for it? Also, if you have time, what type of Polities are there?

None. I use the Charted Space map. Since the Charted Space map doesn't really have trade routes on it, I tend to have to go subsector by subsector and define all BTNs within J-6 of each world. (using GURPS Far Trader) It is a logistical nightmare. Definitely work better done by a computer as it is basically data entry. Where I really have a hard time is figuring out the physical routes, where they overlap, where they stack, and where they should be upgraded to the next level up. The Trade System needs changed for worldbuilding, since none of the economics of non-ACS trade are detailed anywhere, or even make sense for what they say they are supposed to do. The In Trade Code. You have 2 worlds with identical UWPs. The only exception is Atmosphere. The world with a Tainted Atmo is In. The world with clean air is not. So, according to Traveller, there is no such thing as Industry if it doesn't destroy the planet. Stupid and backwards facing technologically. Another holdover from the 1970s. Pretty much all of the Trade system is garbage. For example, why is the Berthing Fee at a starport a flat fee? Why is it not dependent on ship tonnage or actual number of days that the ship in docked? Nope. 1 week. Flat Rate. Same amount of money for a 100-ton scout as for a 100,000-ton mega-freighter. So, I have had to change the Berthing Fees, Trade Codes, prices per ton of cargo and per passenger, Spec Trading Broker rolls, loading and unloading times, BTN modifiers to include non-Imperial trade routes, etc. Inter-polity trade is another thing that requires work to "fix".

Since I primarily run games in the Borderlands subsector of the Trojan Reach, most of My work and testing of systems has been done there. Tyokh and Imisaa are both anchors for an inter-polity trade route, so ideally their WTNs should be calculated by adding up the entire subsector and then recalculating the new BTN number based on that. This is the only way that I can get it to make any sense at all.

 

[ColinD]

None. I use the Charted Space map. Since the Charted Space map doesn't really have trade routes on it, I tend to have to go subsector by subsector and define all BTNs within J-6 of each world. (using GURPS Far Trader) It is a logistical nightmare. Definitely work better done by a computer as it is basically data entry. Where I really have a hard time is figuring out the physical routes, where they overlap, where they stack, and where they should be upgraded to the next level up. The Trade System needs changed for worldbuilding, since none of the economics of non-ACS trade are detailed anywhere, or even make sense for what they say they are supposed to do. The In Trade Code. You have 2 worlds with identical UWPs. The only exception is Atmosphere. The world with a Tainted Atmo is In. The world with clean air is not. So, according to Traveller, there is no such thing as Industry if it doesn't destroy the planet. Stupid and backwards facing technologically. Another holdover from the 1970s. Pretty much all of the Trade system is garbage. For example, why is the Berthing Fee at a starport a flat fee? Why is it not dependent on ship tonnage or actual number of days that the ship in docked? Nope. 1 week. Flat Rate. Same amount of money for a 100-ton scout as for a 100,000-ton mega-freighter. So, I have had to change the Berthing Fees, Trade Codes, prices per ton of cargo and per passenger, Spec Trading Broker rolls, loading and unloading times, BTN modifiers to include non-Imperial trade routes, etc. Inter-polity trade is another thing that requires work to "fix".

Since I primarily run games in the Borderlands subsector of the Trojan Reach, most of My work and testing of systems has been done there. Tyokh and Imisaa are both anchors for an inter-polity trade route, so ideally their WTNs should be calculated by adding up the entire subsector and then recalculating the new BTN number based on that. This is the only way that I can get it to make any sense at all.

Thanks for sharing! Your players must enjoy the setting.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Thanks for sharing! Your players must enjoy the setting.

That is always the goal!

 

[J. L. Brown]

After much discussion in the Drinax Campaign Treasure Ship (Spoilers) thread, it came out that:
A} the Tobia Commerce Guild has 200000 dTons of ships (currently, another 4 ships of 50000 dTons are on order),
B} represents 'More than a third of the shipping on the Hierate route',
C} has a Galoof-class (30000 dTon) freighter making regular runs on the Florian route, and
D} there is 'Five times as much shipping volume on the Hierate route than on the Florian route'.

From which I concluded:
1} There is 500000 dTons (or less, down to probably 417000 dTons) of ships on the Hierate route;
2} There is 100000 dTons (or less, down to probably 84000 dTons) of ships on the Florian route;
3} the above tonnages seems to represent Imperial ships, the Hierate and the Florians probably match the tonnages with their own ships.

Some wrinkles:
a} systems along the Hierate J-2 route handle roughly 429571 dTons of ships per week;
b} systems along the Florian J-2 route see up to 40000 dTons of ships per week;
c} Wildeman (C) and several other starports (Number One (C), Janus (C), & either Connaught (D) or (canon) 291-540 (E)) along the Florian routes MUST maintain a fuel depot to service the regular shipping.
d} the imports & exports do not line up with Imperium-Hierate 'loot' tables from Pirates of Drinax; those tables reflect an average value of 60000 Cr/dTon over many rolls, despite the list of imports and exports averaging much cheaper per dTon.
e} it seems like the Ahroay'if bombed Drinax flat after the King declared a '20% tax on all trade' -- which is probably on 'value of all goods moved'.

All of that aside, what you may want to do to simulate the trade between the two is to figure that the selected goods are cheaper to purchase on the 'export' end, enough to completely eradicate (or as much as possible) the 11200 Cr/dTon shipping costs. These goods also sell of an equal amount LESS than usual on the export end. I thing doing this with the base-price per dTon would be cleanest, but it may not be possible; just be careful to ensure that buying & selling in the same spot is not profitable.

Then, every step along (or at worlds adjacent to) the J-2 route, offset the change in prices by about one step (one seventh) back towards the normal base price.

Imperium to Hierate goods are:

	Base Price	Fist	Wildeman	Cordan, Pandora	Argona, Arunisiir, Umemii, Tanith, Acrid	Sperle, Blue, Exe	Tech World, Torpol, Inurn, Falcon, Clarke	Paal, Drinax, Ergo
Imperial Luxury Goods	200000	188800	190400	192000	193600	195200	196800	198400
Advanced Weapons	150000	138800	140400	142000	143600	145200	146800	148400
Advanced Manufactured Goods	100000	88800	90400	92000	93600	95200	96800	98400
Pharmaceuticals	100000	88800	90400	92000	93600	95200	96800	98400
Advanced Machine Parts	75000	63800	65400	67000	68600	70200	71800	73400
Biochemicals	50000	38800	40400	42000	43600	45200	46800	48400
Illegal Luxuries	50000	38800	40400	42000	43600	45200	46800	48400
Imperial Luxury Consumables	20000	8800	10400	12000	13600	15200	16800	18400
Live Animals	10000	4400	5200	6000	6800	7600	8400	9200
Spices	6000	2640	3120	3600	4080	4560	5040	5520

Hierate to Imperium goods are:

	Base Price	Tyokh	Paal, The World, Drinax	Tech World, Sink, Hilfer, Torpol, Asim, Pourne	Sperle, Falcon, Inurn, Ergo, Blue, Clarke	Argona, Exe, Arunisiir, Byrni, Oghma, Marduk, Borite	Cordan, Acrid, Exocet, Tanith	Wildeman, Pandora, Uemii
Radioactives	1000000	988800	990400	992000	993600	995200	996800	998400
Aslan Luxury Goods	200000	188800	190400	192000	193600	195200	196800	198400
Illegal Weapons	150000	138800	140400	142000	143600	145200	146800	148400
Precious Metals	50000	38800	40400	42000	43600	45200	46800	48400
Aslan Luxury Consumables	20000	8800	10400	12000	13600	15200	16800	18400
Crystals & Gems	20000	8800	10400	12000	13600	15200	16800	18400
Uncommon Raw Materials	20000	8800	10200	12000	13600	15200	16800	18400
Polymers	7000	3080	3570	4200	4760	5320	5880	6440
Basic Raw Materials	5000	2200	2550	3000	3400	3800	4200	4600
Uncommon Ore	5000	2200	2550	3000	3400	3800	4200	4600
Textiles	3000	1320	1530	1800	2040	2280	2520	2760

It is not a perfect solution, but I think that is where I would begin. You might want to do something different; but I hope at least I helped inspire something that works for you.

 

[MasterGwydion]

After much discussion in the Drinax Campaign Treasure Ship (Spoilers) thread, it came out that:
A} the Tobia Commerce Guild has 200000 dTons of ships (currently, another 4 ships of 50000 dTons are on order),
B} represents 'More than a third of the shipping on the Hierate route',
C} has a Galoof-class (30000 dTon) freighter making regular runs on the Florian route, and
D} there is 'Five times as much shipping volume on the Hierate route than on the Florian route'.

From which I concluded:
1} There is 500000 dTons (or less, down to probably 417000 dTons) of ships on the Hierate route;
2} There is 100000 dTons (or less, down to probably 84000 dTons) of ships on the Florian route;
3} the above tonnages seems to represent Imperial ships, the Hierate and the Florians probably match the tonnages with their own ships.

Some wrinkles:
a} systems along the Hierate J-2 route handle roughly 429571 dTons of ships per week;
b} systems along the Florian J-2 route see up to 40000 dTons of ships per week;
c} Wildeman (C) and several other starports (Number One (C), Janus (C), & either Connaught (D) or (canon) 291-540 (E)) along the Florian routes MUST maintain a fuel depot to service the regular shipping.
d} the imports & exports do not line up with Imperium-Hierate 'loot' tables from Pirates of Drinax; those tables reflect an average value of 60000 Cr/dTon over many rolls, despite the list of imports and exports averaging much cheaper per dTon.
e} it seems like the Ahroay'if bombed Drinax flat after the King declared a '20% tax on all trade' -- which is probably on 'value of all goods moved'.

All of that aside, what you may want to do to simulate the trade between the two is to figure that the selected goods are cheaper to purchase on the 'export' end, enough to completely eradicate (or as much as possible) the 11200 Cr/dTon shipping costs. These goods also sell of an equal amount LESS than usual on the export end. I thing doing this with the base-price per dTon would be cleanest, but it may not be possible; just be careful to ensure that buying & selling in the same spot is not profitable.

Then, every step along (or at worlds adjacent to) the J-2 route, offset the change in prices by about one step (one seventh) back towards the normal base price.

Imperium to Hierate goods are:

	Base Price	Fist	Wildeman	Cordan, Pandora	Argona, Arunisiir, Umemii, Tanith, Acrid	Sperle, Blue, Exe	Tech World, Torpol, Inurn, Falcon, Clarke	Paal, Drinax, Ergo
Imperial Luxury Goods	200000	188800	190400	192000	193600	195200	196800	198400
Advanced Weapons	150000	138800	140400	142000	143600	145200	146800	148400
Advanced Manufactured Goods	100000	88800	90400	92000	93600	95200	96800	98400
Pharmaceuticals	100000	88800	90400	92000	93600	95200	96800	98400
Advanced Machine Parts	75000	63800	65400	67000	68600	70200	71800	73400
Biochemicals	50000	38800	40400	42000	43600	45200	46800	48400
Illegal Luxuries	50000	38800	40400	42000	43600	45200	46800	48400
Imperial Luxury Consumables	20000	8800	10400	12000	13600	15200	16800	18400
Live Animals	10000	4400	5200	6000	6800	7600	8400	9200
Spices	6000	2640	3120	3600	4080	4560	5040	5520

Hierate to Imperium goods are:

	Base Price	Tyokh	Paal, The World, Drinax	Tech World, Sink, Hilfer, Torpol, Asim, Pourne	Sperle, Falcon, Inurn, Ergo, Blue, Clarke	Argona, Exe, Arunisiir, Byrni, Oghma, Marduk, Borite	Cordan, Acrid, Exocet, Tanith	Wildeman, Pandora, Uemii
Radioactives	1000000	988800	990400	992000	993600	995200	996800	998400
Aslan Luxury Goods	200000	188800	190400	192000	193600	195200	196800	198400
Illegal Weapons	150000	138800	140400	142000	143600	145200	146800	148400
Precious Metals	50000	38800	40400	42000	43600	45200	46800	48400
Aslan Luxury Consumables	20000	8800	10400	12000	13600	15200	16800	18400
Crystals & Gems	20000	8800	10400	12000	13600	15200	16800	18400
Uncommon Raw Materials	20000	8800	10200	12000	13600	15200	16800	18400
Polymers	7000	3080	3570	4200	4760	5320	5880	6440
Basic Raw Materials	5000	2200	2550	3000	3400	3800	4200	4600
Uncommon Ore	5000	2200	2550	3000	3400	3800	4200	4600
Textiles	3000	1320	1530	1800	2040	2280	2520	2760

It is not a perfect solution, but I think that is where I would begin. You might want to do something different; but I hope at least I helped inspire something that works for you.

It seems to Me that buying this cheap would sell better heading deeper into Imperial Space than heading across the Borderlands. Assuming that the Advanced Manufactured Goods come from Tobia, it is only 2 J-2s to New Moscow, a Rich world. This would bring you way more income than running all the way to Tyokh.

Perhaps you need to try your solution from the other side. Increase the sale price instead of reducing the purchase price. Then you do not have this issue.

 

[J. L. Brown]

I was working with the idea that all Imperial worlds (and all Aslan worlds) would have the same base price. The trade isn't between 'Fist' and 'Tyokh' -- it is between the Imperium and the Hierate. Maybe it would be better to 'split the difference', with half the adjustment being at the 'Export' side & half at the 'Import' side.

That actually appeals to me a bit, now that I think about it. I had been assuming that all non-aligned worlds just kept the base price, except that the worlds along the routes were affected by the traders coming through. But that creates a pretty large differential between non-aligned worlds near the trade route, since I had the 'import' side set at the base price. Splitting the difference fixes some of that.

I'll adjust the tables.

Imperium to Hierate goods are:

	Base Price	Fist (and all Imperial worlds)	Wildeman	Cordan, Pandora	Argona, Arunisiir, Umemii, Tanith, Acrid	Sperle, Blue, Exe	Tech World, Torpol, Inurn, Falcon, Clarke	Paal, Drinax, Ergo	Tyokh (and all Aslan Worlds)
Imperial Luxury Goods	200000	194400	196000	197600	199200	200800	202400	204000	206200
Advanced Weapons	150000	144400	146000	147600	149200	150800	152400	154000	155600
Advanced Manufactured Goods	100000	94400	96000	97600	99200	100800	102400	104000	105600
Pharmaceuticals	100000	94400	96000	97600	99200	100800	102400	104000	105600
Advanced Machine Parts	75000	69400	71000	72600	74200	75800	77400	79000	80600
Biochemicals	50000	40400	46000	47600	49200	50800	52400	54600	55600
Illegal Luxuries	50000	40400	46000	47600	49200	50800	52400	54600	55600
Imperial Luxury Consumables	20000	14400	16000	17600	19200	20800	22400	24000	25600
Live Animals	10000	7200	8000	8800	9600	10400	11200	12000	12800
Spices	6000	4320	4800	5280	5760	6240	6720	7200	7680

Hierate to Imperium goods are:

	Base Price	Tyokh (and all Aslan worlds)	Paal, The World, Drinax	Tech World, Sink, Hilfer, Torpol, Asim, Pourne	Sperle, Falcon, Inurn, Ergo, Blue, Clarke	Argona, Exe, Arunisiir, Byrni, Oghma, Marduk, Borite	Cordan, Acrid, Exocet, Tanith	Wildeman, Pandora, Uemii	Fist (and all Imperial worlds)
Radioactives	1000000	994200	995800	997400	999000	1000600	1002200	1003800	1005600
Aslan Luxury Goods	200000	194400	196000	197600	199200	200800	202400	204000	205600
Illegal Weapons	150000	144400	146000	147600	149200	150800	152400	154000	155600
Precious Metals	50000	44400	46000	47600	49200	50800	52400	54000	55600
Aslan Luxury Consumables	20000	14400	16000	17600	19200	20800	22400	24000	25600
Crystals & Gems	20000	14400	16000	17600	19200	20800	22400	24000	25600
Uncommon Raw Materials	20000	14400	16000	17600	19200	20800	22400	24000	25600
Polymers	7000	5040	5600	6160	6720	7280	7840	8400	8960
Basic Raw Materials	5000	3600	4000	4400	4800	5200	5600	6000	6400
Uncommon Ore	5000	3600	4000	4400	4800	5200	5600	6000	6400
Textiles	3000	2160	2400	2640	2880	3120	3360	3600	3840

Here it is. Let me know what you think.

A problem I noticed: The Aslan are exporting radioactives to the Imperium; but the Imperium is also exporting radioactives to the Florian League. Maybe I need to do sonething differently for goods that do that.

 

[ColinD]

After much discussion in the Drinax Campaign Treasure Ship (Spoilers) thread, it came out that:
A} the Tobia Commerce Guild has 200000 dTons of ships (currently, another 4 ships of 50000 dTons are on order),
B} represents 'More than a third of the shipping on the Hierate route',
C} has a Galoof-class (30000 dTon) freighter making regular runs on the Florian route, and
D} there is 'Five times as much shipping volume on the Hierate route than on the Florian route'.

From which I concluded:
1} There is 500000 dTons (or less, down to probably 417000 dTons) of ships on the Hierate route;
2} There is 100000 dTons (or less, down to probably 84000 dTons) of ships on the Florian route;
3} the above tonnages seems to represent Imperial ships, the Hierate and the Florians probably match the tonnages with their own ships.

Some wrinkles:
a} systems along the Hierate J-2 route handle roughly 429571 dTons of ships per week;
b} systems along the Florian J-2 route see up to 40000 dTons of ships per week;
c} Wildeman (C) and several other starports (Number One (C), Janus (C), & either Connaught (D) or (canon) 291-540 (E)) along the Florian routes MUST maintain a fuel depot to service the regular shipping.
d} the imports & exports do not line up with Imperium-Hierate 'loot' tables from Pirates of Drinax; those tables reflect an average value of 60000 Cr/dTon over many rolls, despite the list of imports and exports averaging much cheaper per dTon.
e} it seems like the Ahroay'if bombed Drinax flat after the King declared a '20% tax on all trade' -- which is probably on 'value of all goods moved'.

All of that aside, what you may want to do to simulate the trade between the two is to figure that the selected goods are cheaper to purchase on the 'export' end, enough to completely eradicate (or as much as possible) the 11200 Cr/dTon shipping costs. These goods also sell of an equal amount LESS than usual on the export end. I thing doing this with the base-price per dTon would be cleanest, but it may not be possible; just be careful to ensure that buying & selling in the same spot is not profitable.

Then, every step along (or at worlds adjacent to) the J-2 route, offset the change in prices by about one step (one seventh) back towards the normal base price.

Imperium to Hierate goods are:

	Base Price	Fist	Wildeman	Cordan, Pandora	Argona, Arunisiir, Umemii, Tanith, Acrid	Sperle, Blue, Exe	Tech World, Torpol, Inurn, Falcon, Clarke	Paal, Drinax, Ergo
Imperial Luxury Goods	200000	188800	190400	192000	193600	195200	196800	198400
Advanced Weapons	150000	138800	140400	142000	143600	145200	146800	148400
Advanced Manufactured Goods	100000	88800	90400	92000	93600	95200	96800	98400
Pharmaceuticals	100000	88800	90400	92000	93600	95200	96800	98400
Advanced Machine Parts	75000	63800	65400	67000	68600	70200	71800	73400
Biochemicals	50000	38800	40400	42000	43600	45200	46800	48400
Illegal Luxuries	50000	38800	40400	42000	43600	45200	46800	48400
Imperial Luxury Consumables	20000	8800	10400	12000	13600	15200	16800	18400
Live Animals	10000	4400	5200	6000	6800	7600	8400	9200
Spices	6000	2640	3120	3600	4080	4560	5040	5520

Hierate to Imperium goods are:

	Base Price	Tyokh	Paal, The World, Drinax	Tech World, Sink, Hilfer, Torpol, Asim, Pourne	Sperle, Falcon, Inurn, Ergo, Blue, Clarke	Argona, Exe, Arunisiir, Byrni, Oghma, Marduk, Borite	Cordan, Acrid, Exocet, Tanith	Wildeman, Pandora, Uemii
Radioactives	1000000	988800	990400	992000	993600	995200	996800	998400
Aslan Luxury Goods	200000	188800	190400	192000	193600	195200	196800	198400
Illegal Weapons	150000	138800	140400	142000	143600	145200	146800	148400
Precious Metals	50000	38800	40400	42000	43600	45200	46800	48400
Aslan Luxury Consumables	20000	8800	10400	12000	13600	15200	16800	18400
Crystals & Gems	20000	8800	10400	12000	13600	15200	16800	18400
Uncommon Raw Materials	20000	8800	10200	12000	13600	15200	16800	18400
Polymers	7000	3080	3570	4200	4760	5320	5880	6440
Basic Raw Materials	5000	2200	2550	3000	3400	3800	4200	4600
Uncommon Ore	5000	2200	2550	3000	3400	3800	4200	4600
Textiles	3000	1320	1530	1800	2040	2280	2520	2760

It is not a perfect solution, but I think that is where I would begin. You might want to do something different; but I hope at least I helped inspire something that works for you.

You are giving a great narrative reason for trade by goods with this pricing. Your players must appreciate the care and time this took! I like to do this in my game, except I usually have a particular NPC who is a farmer, manufacturer or government representative that is a seller or a buyer for a particular good. The Travellers bargain with them using Broker, or sometimes Diplomat. Sometimes they will need to use Streetwise or Advocate.

 

[J. L. Brown]

Unfortunately, my players have yet to see the results of my prep -- real life schedule conflicts mean that we have yet to have session zero. At least we can keep in touch on Discord, though -- I also get to use the extra lead up time to become more familiar with the material.

 

[ColinD]

I was working with the idea that all Imperial worlds (and all Aslan worlds) would have the same base price. The trade isn't between 'Fist' and 'Tyokh' -- it is between the Imperium and the Hierate. Maybe it would be better to 'split the difference', with half the adjustment being at the 'Export' side & half at the 'Import' side.

That actually appeals to me a bit, now that I think about it. I had been assuming that all non-aligned worlds just kept the base price, except that the worlds along the routes were affected by the traders coming through. But that creates a pretty large differential between non-aligned worlds near the trade route, since I had the 'import' side set at the base price. Splitting the difference fixes some of that.

I'll adjust the tables.

Here it is. Let me know what you think.

A problem I noticed: The Aslan are exporting radioactives to the Imperium; but the Imperium is also exporting radioactives to the Florian League. Maybe I need to do sonething differently for goods that do that.

Have you looked at this graph about UK import/export of Uranium and Thorium? Observatory of Economic Complexity Would that be of interest?

 

[J. L. Brown]

Have you looked at this graph about UK import/export of Uranium and Thorium? Observatory of Economic Complexity Would that be of interest?

Not in detail; but I think it is suggesting that the Imperium has radioactives at the base price, while they are cheaper in the Hierate and more expensive in the League. It complicates the Hierate to Imperium secondary route through Drinax, Torpol, and Blue since the Imperium-Florian trade goes through those systems as well.