Trade Codes

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MasterGwydion

Emperor Mongoose
I know Trade Codes are derived from the UWP of the Mainworld of a system, but this system seems to be extremely lacking to Me. For example, Tech-World (A555154–E), population 1, but it says the number of robots is in the millions. With less than 100 people and more than 1 million robots, how is this world not Industrial, just to have the capacity to build and maintain over a million robots? All that work is literally being done by 30 sophonts, since for the population code and the Trade Codes, robots do not count. The Trade Codes literally have nothing to do with what is actually going on, on the planet. Corrosive Atmo planet supplying triple it's population's food requirements with sealed Hydroponics fields (Biosphere or Manufacturing Plant, Agriculture). Use Pourne as an example. 900million people. Say, I build enough Manufacturing Plants, Agriculture to feed 2.7 billion sophonts. By the rules, this world is still not an Agricultural World. Why not? Why do the rules use things for Trade Codes that are completely unrelated to what they actually do?

Also annoying for Me is that the Traveller Map is super inaccurate when it comes to listing a Mainworld's Trade Code. Why is Tech-World not listed as High Tech? Or Falcon? Or Drinax? Or Tyokh? Or Iroioah? All of them are TL-12 or higher.
 
Also, why can't Water Worlds have the Agricultural Trade Code? Did the writers never hear of commercial fishing? To Me the meaning of the Trade Codes for Non-Agricultural and Non-Industrial should mean must import food and technology to maintain their current Population and TL. Agricultural and Industrial should mean that those worlds have a surplus of food or technology, and export a lot. Not having either of those 4 Trade Codes, should mean that the world is balanced at it's current population and TL. Although, this does not seem to be the actual case.
 
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InexorableTash said:
Re: TravellerMap - it predates Mongoose's license and publications; I started the site in 2005! It doesn't include the Ht/Lt codes; it adheres to the T5 trade code definitions. I have it on my to-do list to incorporate those since it comes up frequently.
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The Travellermap is the single greatest resource that has ever been made for Traveller. Thank you! :)
 
MasterGwydion said:
The Travellermap is the single greatest resource that has ever been made for Traveller. Thank you! :)
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geepers... why stop there. For Traveller? One could easily say it is for any RPG. Only RPG internet resource that comes close IMO would be the Vaults of Pandius. The types of resources that sort of blow you away with just how much useful information and helpful resources they provide for your game.
 
Another question about Trade Codes. Why do you need a minimum population to be considered Non-Industrial or Non-Agricultural? It seems to Me that all these two codes mean is that you produce less than your world needs to sustain current levels or Population or TL.
 
Because you have to have enough demand for the missing products to affect trade on an interstellar level. Even if your 1000 people can't fab everything or make it in local workshops, they aren't going to need enough to make speculative trade in industrial goods more lucrative than average.
 
How much they need isn't important. It is supply and demand. They would pay more for the goods they need imported, but because they are a small colony, they simply wouldn't need as many tons of them, but they would still pay a higher price for interstellar good. This is how your tramp traders don't go broke. Higher prices on the small worlds. They can't compete with the big boys, but the tramp traders make more money in the boonies than they can make of Wall Street.
 
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I had another thought about this Trade as well. Stupid Trade! Always stuck in My head! :( This is more for Geir and his WBH. There needs to be 3 levels of trade. Intrasystem trade, self-explanatory planet to planet trade. Intersystem trade, trade between star systems. Finally, extrasystem trade, between multi-system polities or corps. (Such as the Imperial-Hierate Trade Route.) According to the Trojan Reach Trade Map, it doesn't exist. The same ruleset could be used for all 3 types of trade, just change the modifiers. A BTN-9 is still a BTN-9, no matter if it is between two systems or between 2 polities. This would actually define for everyone, roughly how much trade actually moves through Charted Space. That would be handy for Referees and Players to know for a pirate campaign. Pirates of Drinax?
 
Also, is the Trojan Reach Trade Map accurate? I am trying to figure out how Tech-World is class-A Starport on the J-2 Imperial-Hierate Trade Route, but has a WTN-5, a Transient Trade BTN-0, and a Port Size of 0. They are a class-A starport on the major trade route of the Trojan Reach and they are a Port Size 0. It is either inaccurate or I am just very very confused.
 
MasterGwydion said:
How much they need isn't important. It is supply and demand. They would pay more for the goods they need imported, but because they are a small colony, they simply wouldn't need as many tons of them, but they would still pay a higher price for interstellar good. This is how your tramp traders don't go broke. Higher prices on the small worlds. They can't compete with the big boys, but the tramp traders make more money in the boonies than they can make of Wall Street.
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Did you read the defintion of "non industrial"? It specifically says "Too low a population to maintain an extensive industrial base" in the MgT2e rulebook. If the population is very low, it doesn't need an extensive industrial base to meet its needs. If the population is too high, it has enough labor to do so. So it only meets the definition when the population is large enough to have more demand than local craftsmen can meet, but not enough workers to properly industrialize.

Non agricultural says the world is too dry or barren to feed its population. That means it needs a large enough population that hydroponics, home gardens, or other such projects are insufficient.

Regarding your supply and demand comment, that might be relevant if there were trade limits. But as written, the rules would let you sell 80 dtons of industrial goods to a planet with 10 people on it. Instead of putting such caps in place, the trade codes are defined make Low Pop it's own thing distinct from non industrial and the like.
 
Vormaerin said:
Did you read the defintion of "non industrial"? It specifically says "Too low a population to maintain an extensive industrial base" in the MgT2e rulebook. If the population is very low, it doesn't need an extensive industrial base to meet its needs. If the population is too high, it has enough labor to do so. So it only meets the definition when the population is large enough to have more demand than local craftsmen can meet, but not enough workers to properly industrialize.

Non agricultural says the world is too dry or barren to feed its population. That means it needs a large enough population that hydroponics, home gardens, or other such projects are insufficient.

Regarding your supply and demand comment, that might be relevant if there were trade limits. But as written, the rules would let you sell 80 dtons of industrial goods to a planet with 10 people on it. Instead of putting such caps in place, the trade codes are defined make Low Pop it's own thing distinct from non industrial and the like.
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To Me, when I read, "Too low a population to maintain an extensive industrial base", that says they have no industrial base, hence, Non-Industrial.

Yeah. Non-Agricultural needs to be brought in line with Non-Industrial in My mind. All Non-Agricultural should mean is that, they do not produce enough food to feed their population. The same as Non-Industrial should simply mean, not enough industry to independently support their TL. Then it would make sense to have Garden Worlds and Agricultural worlds. Garden Worlds are Earth-like. That has nothing to with if the population can feed itself or not. Then they refer to completely different things. One is level of food security. The other is, "This world is a paradise".

As far as limits on selling goods, I usually use the same limits on selling spec goods as for buying spec good. Since buying what goods are available already has a mechanic, I just apply that same mechanic when it comes to determining how many of your goods the buyer wants to buy. If you don't sell it all, you can always look for another buyer for the rest of your cargo, but that will take time. That is what you get for being a Tramp Trader. No schedule, no guaranteed buyers. If you run it on a schedule, then how much they will buy is up to Referee fiat, since there are no real rules for that. lol
 
Well, it doesn't say they don't have an industrial base at all. It says they don't have an extensive industrial base. A small town pop planet could very well meet all their meaningful needs with craftsmen rather than full on factories. If they are low tech, its hand made stuff and if they are high tech, it is probably fabbed. The issues of extreme low pop worlds are dealt with by the low pop TC.

But, obviously, if you have different visions for what the trade codes mean, you should alter them.
 
Vormaerin said:
Well, it doesn't say they don't have an industrial base at all. It says they don't have an extensive industrial base. A small town pop planet could very well meet all their meaningful needs with craftsmen rather than full on factories. If they are low tech, its hand made stuff and if they are high tech, it is probably fabbed. The issues of extreme low pop worlds are dealt with by the low pop TC.

But, obviously, if you have different visions for what the trade codes mean, you should alter them.
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Yeah. Lo Pop is a useless trade code. It is used for Radioactives and Live Animals only. 2 entries in one chart is not enough to justify Lo Pop as a trade code. Even when you are looking for goods for trade, it says pop 3 or less, it doesn't say Lo Pop. Same with Starport class rolls. It has a chart that lists modifier by population, not by trade code. Population should only alter the quantity of goods, not the price. It does't matter how many people you have as far as the price goes. Only scarity and surplus matter.
 
Condottiere said:
A sustained industrial base, probably means that it has access to market(s).
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Doesn't need external markets, if it is not Non-Industrial, Industrial, Non-Agricultural, or Agricultural. It produces exactly as much as the planet needs. None extra to trade and none needed to buy.
 
That would depend.

You have to pay for the raw materials, and presumably, labour, and if your market share shrinks, then the capacity to maintain your production facilities, and do research and development, evaporates.
 
Condottiere said:
That would depend.

You have to pay for the raw materials, and presumably, labour, and if your market share shrinks, then the capacity to maintain your production facilities, and do research and development, evaporates.
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With no large-scale external trade, your market share is 100% of the planet. Are you proposing a rule that describes planetary market share or something else? As it stands right now, there is nothing like "market share" in the game rules. I am not sure what it would add to the game or how it would relate to the rest of the mechanics.

As a Referee, if it became important, I would just set a percentage of market share that would make sense. Although, even if one business loses market share, another business picks it up. As a closed system, the totals always equal 100%. If the planet starts producing extra or not producing enough in the long term, then this would affect the planet with the Trade Codes described above.

I guess what I am looking to do is clean up and streamline the Trade Codes, so that each one has a measurable effect on gameplay, but each Trade Code clearly describes something different from the other TCs.

That is why, the 4 codes from above (Ag, In, Non Ag, and Non In) describe if the planet produces more or less than it needs locally. Lo Pop and Hi Pop describe the amount of goods that can be bought and sold by Traders. Poor and Rich should modify the amount of goods the planet is able to buy, sadly the same way Hi Pop and Lo Pop do. As, Ba, De, Fl, Ga, Ic, Ht, Lt, Va, and Wa all describe the planet and effect what goods may be available to purchase there.

So don't change anything about As, Ba, De, Fl, Ga, Ic, Ht, Lt, Va, and Wa. They all work fine. Just need to redefine how the others are described and a bit about how they function. Using this system, everything is simpler, more streamlined, and makes more sense.

If Geir or Matt are reading, perhaps give this a look for the next round of updates. To the best I can tell, this won't unbalance the game in any way. Very few things in the books actually need changing and most importantly, none of the UWPs need changing. :)
 
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