Trade Codes

[Vormaerin]

Right. You commented that you figure out the generalities and then the specifics. Which is also what I do. I just don't bother with generalities that just restate information I already know. I want to turn general values into a specific world. So what is useful to me is additional information that tells me how this planet is different from another planet with the same values.

Other people may find it useful to have that number handy. That's fine. I would prefer a more complex WTN that considered more factors, but that road leads to Fire, Fusion, & Steel syndrome where fewer and fewer people get any value out of it. So I just figure that stuff out myself.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Right. You commented that you figure out the generalities and then the specifics. Which is also what I do. I just don't bother with generalities that just restate information I already know. I want to turn general values into a specific world. So what is useful to me is additional information that tells me how this planet is different from another planet with the same values.

Other people may find it useful to have that number handy. That's fine. I would prefer a more complex WTN that considered more factors, but that road leads to Fire, Fusion, & Steel syndrome where fewer and fewer people get any value out of it. So I just figure that stuff out myself.

Yeah. FFS is way too complicated for how My gaming style has evolved over the decades. I will avoid that book unless I have no other choice, but loved it when I was younger and could math better....lol

 

[MasterGwydion]

I agree that is how UWP should be used. WTN is just a restatement of the UWP as currently defined, so I don't consider it to add any value to my specific description. Every single planet with Pop 6 and TL 10 is going to have the same WTN. So that doesn't help differentiate the world from any other Pop 6 TL 10 world.

There is another combination number that is used often in game. Hits. Hits are a combination of your 3 physical stats. Is that a useless number since you already have that information in the form of STR DEX and END? Hits are just a restatement of the physical stats as currently defined.

 

[Vormaerin]

What are you talking about? Animals have hits. Player Characters just take damage direct to their individual stats. And the reason Animals have Hits is because they don't generally have physical stats.

 

[MasterGwydion]

What are you talking about? Animals have hits. Player Characters just take damage direct to their individual stats. And the reason Animals have Hits is because they don't generally have physical stats.

View attachment 2060

It is still a combination stat, just more limited in use, but you are correct. I should have specified, for animals.

 

[J. L. Brown]

I had another thought about this Trade as well. Stupid Trade! Always stuck in My head! This is more for Geir and his WBH. There needs to be 3 levels of trade. Intrasystem trade, self-explanatory planet to planet trade. Intersystem trade, trade between star systems. Finally, extrasystem trade, between multi-system polities or corps. (Such as the Imperial-Hierate Trade Route.) According to the Trojan Reach Trade Map, it doesn't exist. The same ruleset could be used for all 3 types of trade, just change the modifiers. A BTN-9 is still a BTN-9, no matter if it is between two systems or between 2 polities. This would actually define for everyone, roughly how much trade actually moves through Charted Space. That would be handy for Referees and Players to know for a pirate campaign. Pirates of Drinax?

I am also very interested in 'trade at different scales', and for almost the exact same reason. In the finale chapter of Pirates of Drinax, there is a crucial bit of negotiation around 'levies on trade' along the Empire-Heirate trade routes -- and this is a foundational piece of information which allows shifting from 'player characters doing the daily slog of piracy in Traveller' to 'Player Characters managing strategic interests in Pocket Empires'. But the amount (and importance) of trade is completely undefinable; there is literally no reason for any trade to even exist in the first place -- and that undermines the fundamental conceit of the entire campaign. So it seems to me that any 'strategic view' that supports 'Merchant' (where are the profits?) campaigns, 'Pirate' (where is the valuable shipping?) campaigns, 'Navy' (where are the economic vulnerabilities of the opponent?), 'Mercenary' (where is there conflict & enough money to pay for our services?) campaign, and 'Diplomatic' (Which systems are valuable to me? To my opponent? What do these treaties really mean?) campaigns, should include this sort of essential information.

Also, the assumption is that all trade codes and travel 'zones' as listed are from Third Imperium sources; which is fine as far as it goes. But Aslan have different priorities, and would probably use different codes. One key dimension of their evaluation of a world is 'Is this a good place to hunt?' -- basically, how extensive and Kusyu-like is the biosphere & how expensive it it to Kusyuform. Population and military strength are both important as well. Once these male-oriented concerns are properly weighted, female-oriented concerns need to be evaluated -- are there valuable resources? Is there a useful industrial base? Is there an available labor pool for setting up manufacturing, and infrastructure sufficient to move goods around? Is there a strong market to sell to? Different races and empires value different things, and the trade codes they define would reflect that -- and their evaluation of a system determines their objectives for expansion & defense.

Also, the 'Agricultural' trade code is a bit weird. Having an extensive biosphere is different from 'can I live here by eating stuff that I find?' At a minimum, just basic carbon & water based lifeforms can have proteins and sugars which have different chiralities. Terran amino acids are left-handed, and our sugars are right-handed (let us call this 'Type 1'); eating left-handed sugars doesn't hurt us, but provides no nutrition and often had unfortunate side effects. I think there may be some justification to the idea that Aslan biology is like this -- the amino acids AND the sugars are all left-handed (let us call this 'Type 2'). Type 3 could be all right-handed amino acids and sugars, and Type 4 could be an exact mirror of Terra -- right handed amino acids, and left handed sugars. More exotic biochemistries would also exist, but be rarer. So a 'Garden world' or 'Agricultural world' would only be useful for humans if it happened to be Type 1 (Aslan would prefer Type 2); many such worlds are nice to visit, but not particularly valuable because the native biochemistry is wrong.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I am also very interested in 'trade at different scales', and for almost the exact same reason. In the finale chapter of Pirates of Drinax, there is a crucial bit of negotiation around 'levies on trade' along the Empire-Heirate trade routes -- and this is a foundational piece of information which allows shifting from 'player characters doing the daily slog of piracy in Traveller' to 'Player Characters managing strategic interests in Pocket Empires'. But the amount (and importance) of trade is completely undefinable; there is literally no reason for any trade to even exist in the first place -- and that undermines the fundamental conceit of the entire campaign. So it seems to me that any 'strategic view' that supports 'Merchant' (where are the profits?) campaigns, 'Pirate' (where is the valuable shipping?) campaigns, 'Navy' (where are the economic vulnerabilities of the opponent?), 'Mercenary' (where is there conflict & enough money to pay for our services?) campaign, and 'Diplomatic' (Which systems are valuable to me? To my opponent? What do these treaties really mean?) campaigns, should include this sort of essential information.

Also, the assumption is that all trade codes and travel 'zones' as listed are from Third Imperium sources; which is fine as far as it goes. But Aslan have different priorities, and would probably use different codes. One key dimension of their evaluation of a world is 'Is this a good place to hunt?' -- basically, how extensive and Kusyu-like is the biosphere & how expensive it it to Kusyuform. Population and military strength are both important as well. Once these male-oriented concerns are properly weighted, female-oriented concerns need to be evaluated -- are there valuable resources? Is there a useful industrial base? Is there an available labor pool for setting up manufacturing, and infrastructure sufficient to move goods around? Is there a strong market to sell to? Different races and empires value different things, and the trade codes they define would reflect that -- and their evaluation of a system determines their objectives for expansion & defense.

Also, the 'Agricultural' trade code is a bit weird. Having an extensive biosphere is different from 'can I live here by eating stuff that I find?' At a minimum, just basic carbon & water based lifeforms can have proteins and sugars which have different chiralities. Terran amino acids are left-handed, and our sugars are right-handed (let us call this 'Type 1'); eating left-handed sugars doesn't hurt us, but provides no nutrition and often had unfortunate side effects. I think there may be some justification to the idea that Aslan biology is like this -- the amino acids AND the sugars are all left-handed (let us call this 'Type 2'). Type 3 could be all right-handed amino acids and sugars, and Type 4 could be an exact mirror of Terra -- right handed amino acids, and left handed sugars. More exotic biochemistries would also exist, but be rarer. So a 'Garden world' or 'Agricultural world' would only be useful for humans if it happened to be Type 1 (Aslan would prefer Type 2); many such worlds are nice to visit, but not particularly valuable because the native biochemistry is wrong.

This! All day this! *standing ovation*

 

[Condottiere]

 

[MasterGwydion]

Now that is a Trade Code! lol

 

[Vormaerin]

It is still a combination stat, just more limited in use, but you are correct. I should have specified, for animals.

No, it is not. Animals don't have STR, DEX, or END. If they did, you would not be using Hits. It is a substitute stat "We don't have the usual thing we use for this, so we'll create this other thing to take that spot".



Anyway, I don't know what your point is. I said what I do. I did not tell you what to do or ask Matt to change the rules or do any of that. When I am detailing a world, I am interested in additional information that suggests ways that world is interesting and unique. WTN provides data that might be relevant in other situations, but it does nothing to help describe the the world I am trying to detail that isn't obvious from looking at the UWP. It also does not help differentiate two similar worlds. If it helps you visualize what the UWP suggests, good for you. But that is you, not me. Everyone is different.

If I am going full WBH on a world, then WTN has a place because it acts as a modifier for stuff like Importance and Tariffs. But I find the physical characteristics and biodiversity type stuff a lot more useful than efficiency and so on. And, frankly, I don't generally go full WBH because it is more work than will ever get a return in game. I mainly use it for inspiration or to reverse engineer after I decide I want my own Mesklin in my game and I want to avoid any obvious science mistakes.

 

[MarkAlexander]

I am also very interested in 'trade at different scales', and for almost the exact same reason. In the finale chapter of Pirates of Drinax, there is a crucial bit of negotiation around 'levies on trade' along the Empire-Heirate trade routes -- and this is a foundational piece of information which allows shifting from 'player characters doing the daily slog of piracy in Traveller' to 'Player Characters managing strategic interests in Pocket Empires'. But the amount (and importance) of trade is completely undefinable; there is literally no reason for any trade to even exist in the first place -- and that undermines the fundamental conceit of the entire campaign. So it seems to me that any 'strategic view' that supports 'Merchant' (where are the profits?) campaigns, 'Pirate' (where is the valuable shipping?) campaigns, 'Navy' (where are the economic vulnerabilities of the opponent?), 'Mercenary' (where is there conflict & enough money to pay for our services?) campaign, and 'Diplomatic' (Which systems are valuable to me? To my opponent? What do these treaties really mean?) campaigns, should include this sort of essential information.

Also, the assumption is that all trade codes and travel 'zones' as listed are from Third Imperium sources; which is fine as far as it goes. But Aslan have different priorities, and would probably use different codes. One key dimension of their evaluation of a world is 'Is this a good place to hunt?' -- basically, how extensive and Kusyu-like is the biosphere & how expensive it it to Kusyuform. Population and military strength are both important as well. Once these male-oriented concerns are properly weighted, female-oriented concerns need to be evaluated -- are there valuable resources? Is there a useful industrial base? Is there an available labor pool for setting up manufacturing, and infrastructure sufficient to move goods around? Is there a strong market to sell to? Different races and empires value different things, and the trade codes they define would reflect that -- and their evaluation of a system determines their objectives for expansion & defense.

Also, the 'Agricultural' trade code is a bit weird. Having an extensive biosphere is different from 'can I live here by eating stuff that I find?' At a minimum, just basic carbon & water based lifeforms can have proteins and sugars which have different chiralities. Terran amino acids are left-handed, and our sugars are right-handed (let us call this 'Type 1'); eating left-handed sugars doesn't hurt us, but provides no nutrition and often had unfortunate side effects. I think there may be some justification to the idea that Aslan biology is like this -- the amino acids AND the sugars are all left-handed (let us call this 'Type 2'). Type 3 could be all right-handed amino acids and sugars, and Type 4 could be an exact mirror of Terra -- right handed amino acids, and left handed sugars. More exotic biochemistries would also exist, but be rarer. So a 'Garden world' or 'Agricultural world' would only be useful for humans if it happened to be Type 1 (Aslan would prefer Type 2); many such worlds are nice to visit, but not particularly valuable because the native biochemistry is wrong.

I remember this left/right handed stuff from 2300AD, back in the 80's. Chiralities, I love finding a new word.

 

[J. L. Brown]

I remember this left/right handed stuff from 2300AD, back in the 80's. Chiralities, I love finding a new word.

As you point out, Mongoose 2300AD (which is basically just an overlay of the Mongoose Traveller 2e rules) already deals with these kinds of factors. It seems to me that merging some of the 'biosphere' stuff from 2300AD would be fairly simple and very useful.

 

[Geir]

As you point out, Mongoose 2300AD (which is basically just an overlay of the Mongoose Traveller 2e rules) already deals with these kinds of factors. It seems to me that merging some of the 'biosphere' stuff from 2300AD would be fairly simple and very useful.

I sort of 'borrowed' the compatibility rules from the first Mongoose edition of 2300's Tools for Frontier Living and used a modified version in the World Builder's Handbook. Didn't get down to the level of specifying chiralities, though, but the Compatibility Rating does indicate the yield for edibility of lifeforms.

Those four Types are useful for DNA-based organisms, but since we have a limited sample size of 'life types' it's hard to make up a table of alternatives beyond DNA without basically making stuff up. I guess it depends on how likely non-Ancients-induced panspermia is in the universe (Charted Space or otherwise). I have my own predispositions there (we were 'hit with the life stick' twice, once for bacteria, another time for archaea - and if so, 'Type 1' might be prevalent), but they're not backed up by anything useful like facts.