Trade on the Hierate Route?

[J. L. Brown]

I think, if anyone cares to involve the Florians, then the Imperium - Florian League trade routes will need to be detailed in a similar way.

I am already working up something along those lines in another thread -- but the complete list of products-moving / available-on-loot-tables is not done yet. The obvious approach is to figure up the prices independently, and average them together. That means the Imperium would tend to have close-to-normal (average of above normal and below normal) prices for radioactives and the Torpol - Blue - Arunisiir - Cordan -Wildeman stretch where the routes overlap would reflect slightly more of the Aslan route prices.

A crude first pass:

Commodity	Standard Base price	Fist	Wildeman	Cordan	Arunisiir	Blue	Torpol	Oghma	Thebus	Number One	Acis	Tyr	Caldos	Janus	Connaught	Dpres	Forandin
Radioactives	1000000	989400	990813	992227	993640	995053	996467	997880	999293	1000707	1002120	1003533	1004947	1006360	1007773	1009157	1010600
	<from the Hierate route>	1005600	1003800	1002200	1000600	999000	997400
	<Average price>	997500	997306	997214	997120	997026	996933

A misguided table for going the other way, since the exact list of goods is not finished:

Commodity	Standard Base price	Forandin	Dpres	Janus	Caldos	Tyr	Acis	Number One	Thebus	Oghma	Torpol	Blue	Arunisiir	Cordan	Wildeman	Fist

This is just a test, obviously. We need a list of all of the commonly-exchanged-goods to and from the Florian League to make a complete list. Also, I think trade from the Hierate usually goes from Khteiatloilr to Nora'a; with only the existance of the Glorious Empire responsible for a few goods moving along the Akhwohkyal - Acis - Tyr - Caldos - Janus - Connaught - Dpres - Forandin route.

[Edit: I have been assuming the prices are set by traffic along the J-2 route; and that prices at planets are 'per jump', but neither seem entirely satisfactory. I could probably work up a similar table for J-1 and J-3 trade; at the very least they could be averaged together -- but weighting them is probably more accurate. The problem is that I don't think the information about 'how many more dTons move by J-2 rather than J-3' exists. I think we can assume that there are more J-1 ships than J-2 ships, and more of each of those than J-3 ships. Getting from those assumptions to solid trade numbers seems to involve a lot of fudge. /edit]

 

[MasterGwydion]

I think, if anyone cares to involve the Florians, then the Imperium - Florian League trade routes will need to be detailed in a similar way.

I am already working up something along those lines in another thread -- but the complete list of products-moving / available-on-loot-tables is not done yet. The obvious approach is to figure up the prices independently, and average them together. That means the Imperium would tend to have close-to-normal (average of above normal and below normal) prices for radioactives and the Torpol - Blue - Arunisiir - Cordan -Wildeman stretch where the routes overlap would reflect slightly more of the Aslan route prices.

A crude first pass:

Commodity	Standard Base price	Fist	Wildeman	Cordan	Arunisiir	Blue	Torpol	Oghma	Thebus	Number One	Acis	Tyr	Caldos	Janus	Connaught	Dpres	Forandin
Radioactives	1000000	989400	990813	992227	993640	995053	996467	997880	999293	1000707	1002120	1003533	1004947	1006360	1007773	1009157	1010600
	<from the Hierate route>	1005600	1003800	1002200	1000600	999000	997400
	<Average price>	997500	997306	997214	997120	997026	996933

A misguided table for going the other way, since the exact list of goods is not finished:

Commodity	Standard Base price	Forandin	Dpres	Janus	Caldos	Tyr	Acis	Number One	Thebus	Oghma	Torpol	Blue	Arunisiir	Cordan	Wildeman	Fist

This is just a test, obviously. We need a list of all of the commonly-exchanged-goods to and from the Florian League to make a complete list. Also, I think trade from the Hierate usually goes from Khteiatloilr to Nora'a; with only the existance of the Glorious Empire responsible for a few goods moving along the Akhwohkyal - Acis - Tyr - Caldos - Janus - Connaught - Dpres - Forandin route.

[Edit: I have been assuming the prices are set by traffic along the J-2 route; and that prices at planets are 'per jump', but neither seem entirely satisfactory. I could probably work up a similar table for J-1 and J-3 trade; at the very least they could be averaged together -- but weighting them is probably more accurate. The problem is that I don't think the information about 'how many more dTons move by J-2 rather than J-3' exists. I think we can assume that there are more J-1 ships than J-2 ships, and more of each of those than J-3 ships. Getting from those assumptions to solid trade numbers seems to involve a lot of fudge. /edit]

Although, there is no J-1 route to the Aslan or the Florians.

 

[J. L. Brown]

Although, there is no J-1 route to the Aslan or the Florians.

True; but folks still do mount collapsible tanks in their cargo area to make a multi-jump / multi-parsec crossing. That sort of thing is less routine in the Imperium or the Hierate; but in backwaters like the Islands & the Trojan Reach it may be more common.

That sort of crossing, with 14 J-1, is 14000 Cr per dTon of freight; much more expensive than the 11200 Cr/dTon for the J-2 route, or 10000 Cr/dTon of the J-3 route. A small fraction of trades might still happen that way.

 

[MasterGwydion]

True; but folks still do mount collapsible tans in their cargo area to make a multi-jump / multi-parsec crossing. That sort of thing is less routine in the Imperium or the Hierate; but in backwaters like the Islands & the Trojan Reach it may be more common.

That sort of crossing, with 14 J-1, is 14000 Cr per dTon of freight; much more expensive than the 11200 Cr/dTon for the J-2 route, or 10000 Cr/dTon of the J-3 route. A small fraction of trades might still happen that way.

You do not seem to be taking into account how much cargo space is lost by filling that space with fuel tanks. Or am I wrong?

 

[Anstett]

The entire route (either Florian or Hierate) cannot be done by J1 ships. However I would suspect it is extremely rare for ships to travel the entire Route from start to finish.

There will be lots of small 'last mile (parsec)' things to buy and sell. Bringing in things from the various Clusters to the main trans-shipping point. Get goods from Pourne to Hilfer to Paal for example. Feeding more goods into the trade route.

 

[J. L. Brown]

You do not seem to be taking into account how much cargo space is lost by filling that space with fuel tanks. Or am I wrong?

I am certainly aware that J-1 ships will lose cargo space, and such routes are not optimal. A J-1 Type A Free Trader loses 20 dTons of cargo to 'Mountable tanks'; that takes it from 81 dTons cargo to 61 dTons of cargo -- but a J-2 Type A2 Far Trader only carries 63 dTons of cargo. A J-1 Subsidized Merchant loses 40 dTons, down to 161 dTons of cargo. These use an extra week or more to go two parsecs, but it is workable.

 

[ColinD]

I think, if anyone cares to involve the Florians, then the Imperium - Florian League trade routes will need to be detailed in a similar way.

I am already working up something along those lines in another thread -- but the complete list of products-moving / available-on-loot-tables is not done yet. The obvious approach is to figure up the prices independently, and average them together. That means the Imperium would tend to have close-to-normal (average of above normal and below normal) prices for radioactives and the Torpol - Blue - Arunisiir - Cordan -Wildeman stretch where the routes overlap would reflect slightly more of the Aslan route prices.

A crude first pass:

Commodity	Standard Base price	Fist	Wildeman	Cordan	Arunisiir	Blue	Torpol	Oghma	Thebus	Number One	Acis	Tyr	Caldos	Janus	Connaught	Dpres	Forandin
Radioactives	1000000	989400	990813	992227	993640	995053	996467	997880	999293	1000707	1002120	1003533	1004947	1006360	1007773	1009157	1010600
	<from the Hierate route>	1005600	1003800	1002200	1000600	999000	997400
	<Average price>	997500	997306	997214	997120	997026	996933

A misguided table for going the other way, since the exact list of goods is not finished:

Commodity	Standard Base price	Forandin	Dpres	Janus	Caldos	Tyr	Acis	Number One	Thebus	Oghma	Torpol	Blue	Arunisiir	Cordan	Wildeman	Fist

This is just a test, obviously. We need a list of all of the commonly-exchanged-goods to and from the Florian League to make a complete list. Also, I think trade from the Hierate usually goes from Khteiatloilr to Nora'a; with only the existance of the Glorious Empire responsible for a few goods moving along the Akhwohkyal - Acis - Tyr - Caldos - Janus - Connaught - Dpres - Forandin route.

This is great! The Different Trade Routes you outline really give a reason for the flow of Traders and Travellers. The table shows how the different governments of the Imperium and the Aslan influence those routes. This is what I love about Traveller. When you world build you can go as deep as you want into subjects like astrophysics and economics. I'm currently using the concept of Intra-Industry Trade where the players are transporting (High Quality Beef) Luxury Consumables from a particular rancher on an Agricultural world to a specific restaurant on Hi Population World. It is a side hustle to their tracking of a psionic spy ring.

 

[Anstett]

This is the sort of thing that I build into my game too @ColinD

Related to this thread. In a PoD campaign Drinax manages to divert the trade from Hilfer or Pourne through Drinax to Torpol.

Seller gets a good price, trade goods slide from the Hierate Route to the Florian Route so the Imperium is happy. Drinax is happy to have some more things to tax. The Hierate is losing out on some of the items they want, and might pay more to have them direct shipped.

Lots of ways the Travellers get involved. Privateering/Pirate trade, skimming a bit for protecting the trade, just doing the buying and selling themselves. All with a J1 or J2 ship in the tradition of tramp traders everywhere.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I am certainly aware that J-1 ships will lose cargo space, and such routes are not optimal. A J-1 Type A Free Trader loses 20 dTons of cargo to 'Mountable tanks'; that takes it from 81 dTons cargo to 61 dTons of cargo -- but a J-2 Type A2 Far Trader only carries 63 dTons of cargo. A J-1 Subsidized Merchant loses 40 dTons, down to 161 dTons of cargo. These use an extra week or more to go two parsecs, but it is workable.

Okay. That makes sense to Me. Thank you.

 

[MasterGwydion]

After much discussion in the Drinax Campaign Treasure Ship (Spoilers) thread, it came out that:
A} the Tobia Commerce Guild has 200000 dTons of ships (currently, another 4 ships of 50000 dTons are on order),
B} represents 'More than a third of the shipping on the Hierate route',
C} has a Galoof-class (30000 dTon) freighter making regular runs on the Florian route, and
D} there is 'Five times as much shipping volume on the Hierate route than on the Florian route'.

From which I concluded:
1} There is 500000 dTons (or less, down to probably 417000 dTons) of ships on the Hierate route;
2} There is 100000 dTons (or less, down to probably 84000 dTons) of ships on the Florian route;
3} the above tonnages seems to represent Imperial ships, the Hierate and the Florians probably match the tonnages with their own ships.

Just curious. This is 500,000 tons and 100,000 tons over what time period?

 

[J. L. Brown]

Just curious. This is 500,000 tons and 100,000 tons over what time period?

That is the total tonnage of ships assigned (presumably from the Third Imperium) to each trade route. I am presuming that commercial operators on the large scale manage about three jumps in a 28 day month; 39 jumps per year. Since the Heirate J-2 route is seven jumps, a large trade ship will manage about 5.6 end-to-end runs per year.

This implies that every system along the Heirate J-2 route sees about 214286 dTons of Imperial traders every month. Those ships require ~1530 dTons of refined fuel every day. Since several of these systems do not offer refined fuel, I am presuming that the General Development Corporation has established private/portable refueling stations.

Also note that I am not sure exactly how the trade volumes break down between J-2 and J-3 routes. My naive assumption is that about 62% of all tonnage is J-2 tonnage; but I have made no attempt so far to run the numbers on the J-3 routes -- all my work so far has assumed all traffic is on the J-2 route.

 

[MasterGwydion]

That is the total tonnage of ships assigned (presumably from the Third Imperium) to each trade route. I am presuming that commercial operators on the large scale manage about three jumps in a 28 day month; 39 jumps per year. Since the Heirate J-2 route is seven jumps, a large trade ship will manage about 5.6 end-to-end runs per year.

Okay cool! Thanks! So basically a million tons of cargo at any given time on the Hierate Route and about 200,000 tons on the Florian Route.

This implies that every system along the Heirate J-2 route sees about 214286 dTons of Imperial traders every month. Those ships require ~1530 dTons of refined fuel every day. Since several of these systems do not offer refined fuel, I am presuming that the General Development Corporation has established private/portable refueling stations.

Also note that I am not sure exactly how the trade volumes break down between J-2 and J-3 routes. My naive assumption is that about 62% of all tonnage is J-2 tonnage; but I have made no attempt so far to run the numbers on the J-3 routes -- all my work so far has assumed all traffic is on the J-2 route.

The Imperial Navy escorts the J-3 ships but not the J-2 ships from Imissa to Sperle (I think?). Then the Hierate Clans or corporations escort the rest of the way. Not sure if that will effect your math at all.

 

[J. L. Brown]

Okay cool! Thanks! So basically a million tons of cargo at any given time on the Hierate Route and about 200,000 tons on the Florian Route.

The Imperial Navy escorts the J-3 ships but not the J-2 ships from Imissa to Sperle (I think?). Then the Hierate Clans or corporations escort the rest of the way. Not sure if that will effect your math at all.

The Imperium - Hierate J-3 route is (canonically)
Fist (B) --> (J-2) --> Wildeman (B) --> J-2 --> Cordan (A) --> J-1 --> Acrid (A) --> J-3 --> Tech-World (A) --> J-2 --> Paal (B) --> J-2 --> Tyokh (B)

It makes little sense, since the Imperial Navy is notoriously short on escorts, and they also must provide escorts as far as Arunisiir for the Imperium - Florian trade. In my games I have amended the Imperium - Hierate J-3 route to be:
Fist (B) --> (J-2) --> Wildeman (B) --> J-3 --> Arunisiir (B) --> J-3 --> Tech-World (A) --> J-2 --> Paal (B) --> J-2 --> Tyokh (B)

I am not sure about exactly where the Imperial Navy escorts stop; I think the hand-off is at Paal, but I cannot cite a source. In 'The Treasure Ship', I believe the Imperium expects to meet Aslan escorts at Byrni.

Also -- I am not sure how many Aslan traders can be found en-route to the Florian League or vice-versa. I would expect at least the spinward half of that trade to go along the Iryao (A) --> J-1 -- Nora'a (A) route. But the trailing half of the trade seems like it might use either the Akjwohkyal (B) --> J-2 --> Acis (B) & dustbelt route or the Khusai (A) --> J-2 --> Drinax (A) --> J-2 --> Torpol (B) & the Imperial - Florian route. I prefer the Acis route over the Drinax route, because it makes Drinax an important trade port -- and that does a little violence to the PoD campaign background.

 

[MasterGwydion]

The Imperium - Hierate J-3 route is (canonically)
Fist (B) --> (J-2) --> Wildeman (B) --> J-2 --> Cordan (A) --> J-1 --> Acrid (A) --> J-3 --> Tech-World (A) --> J-2 --> Paal (B) --> J-2 --> Tyokh (B)

I have the J-3 route going Imisaa J-2 to Fist J-2 to Wildeman J-3 to Acrid J-3 to Tech World J-3 to Bryni and finally, J-3 to Tyokh.
And the J-2 route going Imisaa J-2 to Wildeman J-2 to Cordan J-2 to Argona J-2 to Sperle J-2 to Tech World J-2 to Paal, and finally J-2 to Tyokh.

It makes little sense, since the Imperial Navy is notoriously short on escorts, and they also must provide escorts as far as Arunisiir for the Imperium - Florian trade. In my games I have amended the Imperium - Hierate J-3 route to be:
Fist (B) --> (J-2) --> Wildeman (B) --> J-3 --> Arunisiir (B) --> J-3 --> Tech-World (A) --> J-2 --> Paal (B) --> J-2 --> Tyokh (B)

I am not sure about exactly where the Imperial Navy escorts stop; I think the hand-off is at Paal, but I cannot cite a source. In 'The Treasure Ship', I believe the Imperium expects to meet Aslan escorts at Byrni.

I was just reading through the Trojan Reach book again

Page 12, "Both sides are permitted to escort convoys as far as the other side’s border (Imperial ships from Fist to Paal; Aslan ships from Tyokh to Wildeman) but in modern times it is customary for the Imperium ships to go from Fist to Acrid and then Ahroay’if escorts meet the convoy at Tech-World."

 

[J. L. Brown]

I have the J-3 route going Imisaa J-2 to Fist J-2 to Wildeman J-3 to Acrid J-3 to Tech World J-3 to Bryni and finally, J-3 to Tyokh.

That is considerably better than Wildeman (B) --> J-2 --> Cordan (A) --> J-1 --> Acrid (A) --> J-3 --> Tech-World (A); but I seem to recall a description of the J-3 route 'following the J-2 route as far as Cordan'. I am also a little stumped as to why the 3I would want to send shipping through Byrni when it does not save time, nor give access to a better starport -- it seems like splitting up limited escorts over more routes counter-productive -- going Tech-World (A) --> J-3 --> Pourne (A) --> Tyokh (B) would make more sense. On the other hand, in 'The Treasure Ship' it specifies that the Martin II does go through Byrni, so maybe that is the regular J-3 route that they are trying to stick with.

And the J-2 route going Imisaa J-2 to Wildeman J-2 to Cordan J-2 to Argona J-2 to Sperle J-2 to Tech World J-2 to Paal, and finally J-2 to Tyokh.

I was just reading through the Trojan Reach book again

Page 12, "Both sides are permitted to escort convoys as far as the other side’s border (Imperial ships from Fist to Paal; Aslan ships from Tyokh to Wildeman) but in modern times it is customary for the Imperium ships to go from Fist to Acrid and then Ahroay’if escorts meet the convoy at Tech-World."

Interesting; that implies that the jumps in and out of both Argona (B) and Sperle (B) are generally unescorted. I missed that; thank you.

 

[MasterGwydion]

That is considerably better than Wildeman (B) --> J-2 --> Cordan (A) --> J-1 --> Acrid (A) --> J-3 --> Tech-World (A); but I seem to recall a description of the J-3 route 'following the J-2 route as far as Cordan'. I am also a little stumped as to why the 3I would want to send shipping through Byrni when it does not save time, nor give access to a better starport -- it seems like splitting up limited escorts over more routes counter-productive -- going Tech-World (A) --> J-3 --> Pourne (A) --> Tyokh (B) would make more sense. On the other hand, in 'The Treasure Ship' it specifies that the Martin II does go through Byrni, so maybe that is the regular J-3 route that they are trying to stick with.

I don't know about Pourne, but Bryni has very good relations with the 3I and is thinking about becoming a Client State. That likely affected the Hierate Route path.

Interesting; that implies that the jumps in and out of both Argona (B) and Sperle (B) are generally unescorted. I missed that; thank you.

Yeah. It says those are systems that are dangerous due to pirates and a lack of escort ships.

 

[J. L. Brown]

I don't know about Pourne, but Bryni has very good relations with the 3I and is thinking about becoming a Client State. That likely affected the Hierate Route path.

But Byrni is outside the area where the 3I navy provides escorts; from Tech-World onwards the escorts are provided by the Heirate. Having close ties to the 3I would be a factor against 'escorts take merchant ships through here'. The specific case of an official 3I diplomatic Treasure Ship might be a special case -- after all, it retains Imperial Navy Escorts all the way to the Aslan border.

 

[MasterGwydion]

But Byrni is outside the area where the 3I navy provides escorts; from Tech-World onwards the escorts are provided by the Heirate. Having close ties to the 3I would be a factor against 'escorts take merchant ships through here'. The specific case of an official 3I diplomatic Treasure Ship might be a special case -- after all, it retains Imperial Navy Escorts all the way to the Aslan border.

The IN doesn't need to protect things in that system to route trade through that system. They may simply find a richer Bryni versus a richer Pourne to be more beneficial to the Imperium or to the Duke of Tobia. Bryni has also been heavily invested in their development for trade from GeDeCo. I am guessing that they have some political/economic pull.

 

[J. L. Brown]

The IN doesn't need to protect things in that system to route trade through that system. They may simply find a richer Bryni versus a richer Pourne to be more beneficial to the Imperium or to the Duke of Tobia. Bryni has also been heavily invested in their development for trade from GeDeCo. I am guessing that they have some political/economic pull.

Yes, it is possible that GeDeCo influence could explain a J-3 route through Byrni, instead of through Pourne, or (far easier) just sticking to the established route-with-escorts which already goes through Paal. Any which way a ship goes, it will still be two jumps; whether those are J-2 or J-3.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Yes, it is possible that GeDeCo influence could explain a J-3 route through Byrni, instead of through Pourne, or (far easier) just sticking to the established route-with-escorts which already goes through Paal. Any which way a ship goes, it will still be two jumps; whether those are J-2 or J-3.

I just figure that it is less efficient using a J-3 ship for less than J-3 jumps than using a J-3 ship for J-3 jumps. Plus, Paal is already covered by the J-2 route. Although, and I do not remember where I read it at the moment, it says that only the J-3 route is escorted, which means that the Imperial to Aslan escort trade off happens at Tech World. This would mean that the jump to Paal has no escorts, but the jump to Bryni does have Aslan escorts which makes sense since 30% of the population of Bryni is Aslan.