Trade Goods - Common Consumables

[swordtart]

Spec Trade have to be over saturated goods. As local merchants are already fulfilling those deals.
If the traveller can sell it to that system, the local would have already done so.

Where it that written?

The question was how could anyone make money on Common Consumables. Rather than look for reasons why it couldn't work, I chose to look for reasons why it could.

You also assume there are local merchants who have the resources to conduct trade at the volumes required. This is at the wholesale level, most will be retailers trading in smaller quantities for less overall investment, greater effort, but probably greater percentages. There may well be established traders selling 14 cubic metres of fruit at a time, and if the referee determines there are then you will be trading with them and their Broker skill will be counting against your effect, the rules also allow for someone familiar with local markets to gain a bonus to their trade roll. You will buy dearer and sell cheaper meaning you will be relying more and more on having to wait for the right price and either having no stock until the price drops or having to store goods until the sale price is good enough. You will incur storage fees, and might run out of money in the mean time. Of course a local broker might just chose to make his 10% by buying on behalf of other traders and leveraging their cash reserves instead of his own.

There is no consideration of saturation at any level in the game or by that argument all those IN/NI cash cows on the mains would already be saturated and you wouldn't be able to sell there either. There is seldom a reason that someone else can't get there first, so the referee is supposed to make it an adventure. Trade rivals create adventure opportunity and that can happen at a planetary as well.

The limit to trade opportunity is transport. Before the railways the markets were pretty local and oversaturation was very possible. Once you can ship across country the market for non-perishables grew. On a low tech agri world, you might be the only one with an imported grav carrier or launch. You can reach places the locals cannot and faster. If you have a fusion plant and they are relying on internal combustion you can operate more cheaply as your costs will reduce. You get this benefit as you invested in your infrastructure and to do so you will have had to make less investment in stock. Different traders have different business models.

Even if everyone has the same level of transport not everyone is covering the same trade routes. On a high population world the market may exceed the ability to produce enough goods and everyone is clamouring for the latest thing only for the boom market to crash again months or weeks later (loombands and fidget spinners anyone?). Common Consumer Goods are not a single product and there can be room for everyone in the market.

If you wish for plot reasons to have oversaturation then that is fair enough, but I think by stating it as a default you are adding in a limitation that doesn't exist and doesn't need to.

 

[ColinD]

The Science of Science Fiction really shines in my newly arrived Starship Operators Manual. I like how the M-Drive in detailed in the Starship Operator's Guide but it states in the introduction the referee can use "as much or as little of this as you want". The Economics of Speculative Science Fiction Economics is often extrapolated from the Trade section of the Core Rulebook (Updated 2022) which led to the original question of "How does anyone make any money buying and selling Common Consumables?"

This is a great question and leads many Referee and players to interesting speculative answers. I've already stated IMTU answer (see my previous post on Subsidized Traders, the planets Banasdan and Arcturus reliance on the planets Lakamsal and Noricum) . If we as players and referees lock down some Iron Rules of Economics within Traveller we are limiting the imaginative explanations and possible range of adventures. The new Bounty Hunter book gives a wide range of different ways to run such adventures and different types of Bounty Hunters. It leaves the Referee and the Players lots of leeway to create their Scenario and their Traveller.

I think that there are many different merchant adventures and lots of different Travellers who can engage in it. Everything from the side hustle of speculative Trade that most players I've met engage in on the way between adventures (the Core Rulebook states "We recommend that, for most campaigns,referees hand over this entire chapter to the Travellers and simply let them get on with it.You will find they should be able to generate a fairly regular amount of cash, which will cover their ship expenses and perhaps allow them some new equipment.") to a larger concern for some (like myself and my players).

A new Merchant book may follow the design of the Bounty Hunter where it gives lots of different types of Merchants and lots of different scenarios. This would allow for those who want to build a detailed economic structure for their version of the 3rd Imperium or give the specific economic concerns that could set the background for a Bounty Hunter, Rescue or Military campaign. It may be more proscribed that that.

This is too long a post but I just wanted to put something out there that again says I enjoy the different Trade opportunities and ideas presented by the creators of Mongoose and the players in these forums. I just hope that we don't overly critique someone's individual take on Trade, but instead read how they create the game that they and their friends can enjoy.

 

[Terry Mixon]

Spec Trade have to be over saturated goods. As local merchants are already fulfilling those deals.
If the traveller can sell it to that system, the local would have already done so.

This.

 

[MasterGwydion]

The Science of Science Fiction really shines in my newly arrived Starship Operators Manual. I like how the M-Drive in detailed in the Starship Operator's Guide but it states in the introduction the referee can use "as much or as little of this as you want". The Economics of Speculative Science Fiction Economics is often extrapolated from the Trade section of the Core Rulebook (Updated 2022) which led to the original question of "How does anyone make any money buying and selling Common Consumables?"

This is a great question and leads many Referee and players to interesting speculative answers. I've already stated IMTU answer (see my previous post on Subsidized Traders, the planets Banasdan and Arcturus reliance on the planets Lakamsal and Noricum) . If we as players and referees lock down some Iron Rules of Economics within Traveller we are limiting the imaginative explanations and possible range of adventures. The new Bounty Hunter book gives a wide range of different ways to run such adventures and different types of Bounty Hunters. It leaves the Referee and the Players lots of leeway to create their Scenario and their Traveller.

I think that there are many different merchant adventures and lots of different Travellers who can engage in it. Everything from the side hustle of speculative Trade that most players I've met engage in on the way between adventures (the Core Rulebook states "We recommend that, for most campaigns,referees hand over this entire chapter to the Travellers and simply let them get on with it.You will find they should be able to generate a fairly regular amount of cash, which will cover their ship expenses and perhaps allow them some new equipment.") to a larger concern for some (like myself and my players).

A new Merchant book may follow the design of the Bounty Hunter where it gives lots of different types of Merchants and lots of different scenarios. This would allow for those who want to build a detailed economic structure for their version of the 3rd Imperium or give the specific economic concerns that could set the background for a Bounty Hunter, Rescue or Military campaign. It may be more proscribed that that.

This is too long a post but I just wanted to put something out there that again says I enjoy the different Trade opportunities and ideas presented by the creators of Mongoose and the players in these forums. I just hope that we don't overly critique someone's individual take on Trade, but instead read how they create the game that they and their friends can enjoy.

I would love to see a book like this. As it stands right now, the only way you can make money is by bending or breaking the RAW.

 

[Alaskan15]

So, Trade Goods are good use to make money through trade, yes? Buy the Trade Good, jump one or two systems and sell said trade good for a profit, yes? So, if a Good is listed on the Trade Goods Table, it should be able to be used to make money, yes?

How does anyone make any money buying and selling Common Consumables?

You don't make money on them, you just lose less money than you would with an empty hold. PC ships should not be buying and selling common goods, they should be trading in more valuable goods, and carrying freight. Sometimes there is no good cargo that you want (or maybe that you can afford), and you don't find enough freight to fill your hold. Then, and only then, do you fill the rest of the hold up with Common Consumables, not to make money, but to lose less money.

 

[Arkathan]

How to make money on common consumables during peacetime:
Buy Common Consumables (beer) in the Sword Worlds.
Travel to the Imperium.
Sell your Luxury Consumables (beer).
Keep one crate aside for bribes to starport officials and technicians.

 

[Geir]

You don't make money on them, you just lose less money than you would with an empty hold. PC ships should not be buying and selling common goods, they should be trading in more valuable goods, and carrying freight. Sometimes there is no good cargo that you want (or maybe that you can afford), and you don't find enough freight to fill your hold. Then, and only then, do you fill the rest of the hold up with Common Consumables, not to make money, but to lose less money.

Okay, I get your point, but it doesn't cost to carry nothing. It is better to be empty than to lose Cr500 per ton of 'empty' Space, so you still have to clear at least a tiny amount of gross profit by carrying common goods that you bought and have to sell.

 

[Condottiere]

You could sell oxygen to outer system space stations.

 

[Arkathan]

You could sell oxygen to outer system space stations.

Just not Mega-Corp stations, because they don't like the company store getting undercut, and can afford a lot of mercenaries to explain their displeasure to you.

 

[swordtart]

Freight is less profitable than Low Passengers - the perfect self-loading freight

 

[J. L. Brown]

Okay, I get your point, but it doesn't cost to carry nothing. It is better to be empty than to lose Cr500 per ton of 'empty' Space, so you still have to clear at least a tiny amount of gross profit by carrying common goods that you bought and have to sell.

Jumping empty has exactly the same fixed costs as jumping full; and while the odds that I will sell a dTon of Common Consumables at a profitable price may only be 5%, the chances that I will sell a dTon of empty cargo space is zero.

Sure, spending 500Cr / dTon on goods you simply flush down the toilet at the destination is always a loser. But a Fat Trader has a 327412 Cr/month mortgage + 6549 Cr / month maintenance cost + 21000 Cr / month salaries + 48000 Cr/ month life support costs + 20000 Cr / jump fuel costs -- and 201 dTons of cargo space. That means that (with no passengers) every dTon of cargo space costs 2105 Cr / month if you only manage one jump a month; 1078 Cr / month if you manage two jumps per month; 735 Cr/ month if you manage three jumps.

If you are jumping fast, filling the empty parts of the cargo hold with crummy Common Consumables which might only get 750 Cr/dTon (less, if you managed to buy them cheap) makes sense. It is better than adding a zero into the average.

 

[Arkathan]

Freight is less profitable than Low Passengers - the perfect self-loading freight

Bonus, you get paid prior to delivery and don't get charged if a couple don't arrive in the same condition in which they departed.

 

[Geir]

Jumping empty has exactly the same fixed costs as jumping full; and while the odds that I will sell a dTon of Common Consumables at a profitable price may only be 5%, the chances that I will sell a dTon of empty cargo space is zero.

Sure, spending 500Cr / dTon on goods you simply flush down the toilet at the destination is always a loser. But a Fat Trader has a 327412 Cr/month mortgage + 6549 Cr / month maintenance cost + 21000 Cr / month salaries + 48000 Cr/ month life support costs + 20000 Cr / jump fuel costs -- and 201 dTons of cargo space. That means that (with no passengers) every dTon of cargo space costs 2105 Cr / month if you only manage one jump a month; 1078 Cr / month if you manage two jumps per month; 735 Cr/ month if you manage three jumps.

If you are jumping fast, filling the empty parts of the cargo hold with crummy Common Consumables which might only get 750 Cr/dTon (less, if you managed to buy them cheap) makes sense. It is better than adding a zero into the average.

The difference is that you could loose money on them. And, if at the next stop, you have better stuff to carry, then it might be smartest to sell them at a loss to free up the space for something worthwhile. Flying empty at least protects you against a loss and is better than wasting time, which does add up eventually - if the Referee is a stickler for the time to buy and sell.

 

[J. L. Brown]

The difference is that you could loose money on them. And, if at the next stop, you have better stuff to carry, then it might be smartest to sell them at a loss to free up the space for something worthwhile. Flying empty at least protects you against a loss and is better than wasting time, which does add up eventually - if the Referee is a stickler for the time to buy and sell.

Well sure, you might lose money on anything. With Common Consumables, don't buy them if the price is too high; even the most catastrophic 'sell' roll is better than just dumping them in space. Also don't buy them if it is going to slow you down; but since 20 dTons of 'Common Consumables' are ALWAYS available, a trader does not need to spend extra time to find them or make a deal.

And if a trader is short on available space, then selling a few dTons of CC at a loss is not a big deal -- by definition the rest of the cargo bay is full. If they happen to sell profitably, it is also not a big deal -- but it is better than zero.

 

[Condottiere]