Interstellar Trade

[Vormaerin]

I'm thinking that the number of Traveller players who GAF about this is pretty low. So I am disinclined to think that it is "bad service" to not fix a problem hardly anyone is aware of.

I know its fun for those of us with real world logistics expertise and a lot of Traveller knowledge to get into details like this, but I would not be surprised if no one at Mongoose even knew this was an issue much less ever thought of a useful fix for it. I know this is extremely rarely brought up as a "how do I do this trade thing" question from folks on the various social media. It's a level of detail far beyond what most people ever find a use for.

The whole idea of using volumetric measurements is problematic for any purpose except making deckplans easy to do. For one thing, L-Hydrogen has a pathetically bad volumetric energy density. It is a completely crap fuel if volume is your metric, but it has a pretty high energy density by mass. Which is why it is used as rocket fuel, because mass is the main factor there.

 

[phavoc]

I'm thinking that the number of Traveller players who GAF about this is pretty low. So I am disinclined to think that it is "bad service" to not fix a problem hardly anyone is aware of.

I know its fun for those of us with real world logistics expertise and a lot of Traveller knowledge to get into details like this, but I would not be surprised if no one at Mongoose even knew this was an issue much less ever thought of a useful fix for it. I know this is extremely rarely brought up as a "how do I do this trade thing" question from folks on the various social media. It's a level of detail far beyond what most people ever find a use for.

The whole idea of using volumetric measurements is problematic for any purpose except making deckplans easy to do. For one thing, L-Hydrogen has a pathetically bad volumetric energy density. It is a completely crap fuel if volume is your metric, but it has a pretty high energy density by mass. Which is why it is used as rocket fuel, because mass is the main factor there.

Yup, I do agree that most don't care. To be clear, the "bad service" quote was related to "Changing rules without fixing the potholes just to sell a new version of the game is great business, but bad service." GT is a prime example of an iteration of the Traveller rules that did not follow this path. Their production and quality levels are still the gold standard for Traveller gaming in my opinion. I never expect perfection, but I do like how the supplements did a fantastic job on things because 1) it was expected by the publisher, and 2) the author(s) and editors spent the time and effort to put out a high quality product. Quality, details, consistency and playability are not mutually exlusive concepts.

 

[Vormaerin]

Okay. I just never got the impression that they were changing the rules just to sell a new edition. I'll grant you that I thought most of the MegaTraveller era stuff was subpar with a few exceptions (World Builder's Handbook, Starship Operator's Handbook, and Hard Times).

 

[MonsterX]

I would not be surprised if no one at Mongoose even knew this was an issue much less ever thought of a useful fix for it. I know this is extremely rarely brought up as a "how do I do this trade thing" question from folks on the various social media. It's a level of detail far beyond what most people ever find a use for.

The whole idea of using volumetric measurements is problematic for any purpose except making deckplans easy to do. For one thing, L-Hydrogen has a pathetically bad volumetric energy density. It is a completely crap fuel if volume is your metric, but it has a pretty high energy density by mass. Which is why it is used as rocket fuel, because mass is the main factor there.

I am sure Mongoose writers are aware of the problem; it is obvious as soon as you get into the weeds on ship design issues, or cargo carrying capacity. Although I am sure the writers can speak for themselves, I assume the reason why they don't address the issue with a systematic realistic fix is that the juice is not worth the squeeze - ignoring the discrepancy, and addressing inconsistencies on a case-by-case basis gives good enough results as is much easier from a gameplay perspective.

That said, as far as the effect on trade is concerned, it becomes an issue as soon as you have something which is likely to take a trivial amount of space for its weight - what if the players want to smuggle gold, for example? A ton of gold could fit in a large suitcase. This makes it a plot point, and an opportunity to hide something in a clever way. However, it also brings out the inconsistencies right away. Can you fill your hold with cotton candy and also hide some gold in a crawlway under the floor plates, and what happens now that you're carrying well over your ton limit in weight? The customs cutters should notice that you can't quite make the 2Gs you're rated for any more, and ask pointed questions. How do you hide that?

For 99% of cargos and situations, though, you can just ignore it - just assume that you bought 80tons of widgets and you have an 80 ton cargo hold and it goes from A to B and it doesn't matter how much space it takes up or how much it really weighs because 80=80.

Hydrogen's energy density when combusted is not relevant for Traveller since it is used in fusion reactions.

 

[RogerMc]

It's just another abstraction in a game filled with abstractions that do not stand much scrutiny (are there really only 12 careers and is every term exactly 4 years long? do all starships really have drives that are only rated in whole numbers? why are all worlds exact multiples of parsecs apart? why do all jumps take a week? how are there so many worlds that have billions of people but no breathable atmosphere?).

If you want to calculate volume, mass etc for your cargo GURPS Traveller will let you do that.

 

[MonsterX]

how are there so many worlds that have billions of people but no breathable atmosphere?).

Right next door to garden worlds where 15 people live in the class A starport...

 

[Condottiere]

Whole numbers are associated with technological (whole) levels.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Right next door to garden worlds where 15 people live in the class A starport...

It's a resort world.
The tens of thousands of gap year students that serve the rich clientele are not native, nor are the tourists, and not are the itinerant starport workers.
in fact those 15 people represent births while on holiday...

there mat be an adventure seed there.

 

[J. L. Brown]

Hydrogen's energy density when combusted is not relevant for Traveller since it is used in fusion reactions.

Just as an aside (if we go with the assumption that a High Guard 'Power Point' is 1 mega-Watt hour) then Traveller Fusion is very inefficient compared to the real-world energy available in the fuel. One kilogram of plain Hydrogen, fused to produce plain Helium, releases the energy equivalent to ~6.26 grams of mass; about 170 giga-Watt hours. One displacement ton of Hydrogen would be 170 x10^6 power points; even distributed over (very approximately) 1700 six minute space turns per week, each ton of fuel yields 100000 power points per turn. Or, spread out more thinly, 25000 Power each turn for a 6800 turn 'month'

A 100 dTon ship, with a 1 dTon TL15 Fusion plant (20 power points) uses a tenth of a ton of fuel per month; the equivalent of 2500 power in fuel is used to deliver 20 power. I would expect TL 15 to be more efficient, especially since Fusion is an old & well understood technology by then.

 

[RogerMc]

Right next door to garden worlds where 15 people live in the class A sta

It's a resort world.
The tens of thousands of gap year students that serve the rich clientele are not native, nor are the tourists, and not are the itinerant starport workers.
in fact those 15 people represent births while on holiday...

there mat be an adventure seed there.

In the Spinward Marches there is AFAICS just one Starport A with a pop of 1 - Pixie/Regina with 90-something (from PBG 9) presumably very busy inhabitants and the obvious rationale for that is that it is primarily a naval base so these are just the permanent civilian inhabitants.

For Starport A and Pop 2 (that is to say hundreds of people) there are just 4 worlds: Paya, Margesi, Fulacin and Binges - the first two of which are also naval bases while IIRC Fulacin A starport was given an explanation in Twilight's Peak (although that may have been retconned away by the new Ancients campaign that replaces it?)

What to me seems harder to explain are the 14 SM worlds with Pops and TLs of 9+ that do NOT have an A starport - at least one of which (Arden) is supposed to be becoming an interstellar polity despite it not being able to build any starships.

An anomaly which is repeated multiple times in the Trojan Reaches where just glancing at the map you have the Belgardian Sojournate, Senlis Foederate and Strend Cluster which are multi-world interstellar polities without an A starport and thus no capacity to actually build starships.

This only makes sense if any world with the requisite TL and sufficient population to afford it can build starships and the A-X classification of starports is just a guide to facilities available to visiting commercial ships and not a limitation.

 

[Vormaerin]

I believe that Arden buys its ships from its bigger neighbors. That's part of the rationale for the company taking their "showcase ship" there in Whispers in the Abyss. And those Reaches examples you gave, iirc, mostly have ancient barely functional starships from a previous era. Though I could be misremembering. I don't actively play in the Reaches to keep it top of mind.

 

[Zenny]

For 99% of cargos and situations, though, you can just ignore it - just assume that you bought 80tons of widgets and you have an 80 ton cargo hold and it goes from A to B and it doesn't matter how much space it takes up or how much it really weighs because 80=80.

I have always went with 80 displacement tons or metric tons whichever limit you hit first.

 

[MasterGwydion]

It's just another abstraction in a game filled with abstractions that do not stand much scrutiny (are there really only 12 careers and is every term exactly 4 years long? do all starships really have drives that are only rated in whole numbers? why are all worlds exact multiples of parsecs apart? why do all jumps take a week? how are there so many worlds that have billions of people but no breathable atmosphere?).

If you want to calculate volume, mass etc for your cargo GURPS Traveller will let you do that.

Are Drive Numbers even in use in Mongoose Traveller? Every time I do ship design the drives are never whole numbers.

All jumps take a week unless you use the rules which add the plus or minus to the time.

All systems are not exact numbers of parsecs apart. The systems are all between 0 and 1 parsec, Jump 1; >1 to 2 parsecs is Jump 2; etc.

The only answer to why these huge population worlds exist with no atmospheres exist is quite simply, writers, both Traveller RPG writers as well as the fiction writers and then trying to shoehorn everything together.

I still do not know why anyone discusses Mass. Mass is irrelevant to all aspects of space travel in Traveller. It has no bearing on cargo, nor acceleration, travel times, drive sizes, combat, none of it. In Traveller 1 ton is 1Dton. Any other use for it is useless, since in space craft, in Traveller, only Dtons matter.