Trade on the Hierate Route?

[MasterGwydion]

I know how to do Spec Trading between two normal planets for a normal trade route using the Trade Codes and such, but how does any of this work if you are spec trading between Tyokh and Imisaa? The write ups for the Hierate Trade Route, say they (The Hierate and the Imperium) sell certain things and buy certain things, but that is not reflected in the Trade Codes. How is this handled within the rules?

 

[J. L. Brown]

The problem is that trade codes, and the underlying UWPs that give rise to them are all 1} utterly random, and 2} generated with each system in isolation.

It might be more useful from a world-building standpoint to map by sector, then subsector, then groups-of-worlds, then the individual systems, then the planets within each system -- top-down.

{for some reason I cannot make 'spoilers', so a lengthy example has been snipped}

The idea is that entire regions of space might have (or lack) specific goods (trans-Lanthamides are especially rich Coreward, while Zuchai crystals are especially rich Rimward, etc), creating a need for shipping and trade. And each empire might lay out their maps and organizational structure differently; leading to differing priorities in expansion and development. Unfortunately, this seems to fall into the 'too late to fix' category; it is something that should have been addressed in the original lay-out of Charted Space.

 

[Limpin Legin]

{for some reason I cannot make 'spoilers', so a lengthy example has been snipped}

In the Post editor toolbar, there are two options that have same 'vertical three dots' symbol, like an ellipsis going vertical. Can you see those? Hover mouse over them and they both say "More options ...". Click on the one on the right-hand side to reveal three more symbols. Select the middle of these three symbols for the 'spoiler' format.

 

[Limpin Legin]

The problem is that trade codes, and the underlying UWPs that give rise to them are all 1} utterly random, and 2} generated with each system in isolation.

It might be more useful from a world-building standpoint to map by sector, then subsector, then groups-of-worlds, then the individual systems, then the planets within each system -- top-down.

Good observations. Much appreciated. .

 

[Nelphine]

Not useful at all for trying to so charted space, since it already has most of this worked out, but if you are trying to make a whole new subsector (or sector):

I usually do star and planet generation into population generation. (I don't use standard traveller rules for this, I use the rikitikitraveller world generation)
Then I do law/govt for pop 8+ (this step would include defining the major polity like 3I or Aslan that the system, or even world, is part of)
Then I do trade volume of pop 8+, and then determine the main trade routes based on that. (This step would need to have modifiers for inter polity trade, which I need better rules for, which is why this whole post doesn't help the OP much, and is more aimed at some of the later posters.)
Then I determine starports of all worlds based on the trade volumes.
Then I do starport/govt/law of all worlds that don't have it yet. (This step includes rolling disaster checks for worlds with a starport determined by trade volume)
Then I do any trade volume for those not done yet
Then I do trade routes that don't exist yet.

 

[J. L. Brown]

In the Post editor toolbar, there are two options that have same 'vertical three dots' symbol, like an ellipsis going vertical. Can you see those? Hover mouse over them and they both say "More options ...". Click on the one on the right-hand side to reveal three more symbols. Select the middle of these three symbols for the 'spoiler' format.

Yeah, I SEE the 'spoiler' option, it is just greyed out & inactive for me for some reason.

 

[Terry Mixon]

Yeah, I SEE the 'spoiler' option, it is just greyed out & inactive for me for some reason.

Testing the spoiler option.

Maybe you have to highlight something? No, it seems to work.

You can manually put the text in. ISPOILER and /ISPOILER inside square brackets before and after the spoiler text.

 

[Limpin Legin]

Not useful at all for trying to so charted space, since it already has most of this worked out, ...

Well, the identified flaw is potentially with the UWP game creation mechanic that game referees are advised to use according to the rulebooks - regardless of whoever that referee might be. Somebody created chartered space at some point in time. Did they use the same rules?

So, having said that, I can also dispute that the creators of chartered space used the same rules as we are all advised to use. That is because I do notice a different balance in UWP stats per subsector when I create them, compared to when I buy a pre-generated one.

The pre-generated chartered space stats always seem more lean and less wasteful in terms of useful attributes per star. That could suggest that the pre-paid UWP stats might have been 'polished up' before publication. In which case the observation on "randomness" is almost irrelevant - and you could have made a valid point, but for a different reason to the one you suggest.

 

[Limpin Legin]

Yeah, I SEE the 'spoiler' option, it is just greyed out & inactive for me for some reason.

Do you have the text cursor pointed at the right place in the text box, before you click on icon? (Text cursor being different to mouse pointer.)

 

[Terry Mixon]

Testing the

Spoiler

spoiler

in-text tags.

Works. Looks different, but works.

 

[Limpin Legin]

This inline one produces an effect more like a gaussian blur and
can be on several lines. Probably the best one to use for including inserted images as spoilers.

Spoiler: Image type description

this one can also be on several lines
with an additional spoiler name displayed on a single line.

Anyway this is getting off-topic for the OP

 

[Anstett]

Setting a course towards topic.

One of the reasons Drinax was.... mistreated.... by the Aslan in 885 is the increase in taxation for trade passing through the Kingdom.

1 - This is one of the few canon references to taxing trade
2 - Drinax is not currently on the Hierate Route, I cannot find a reference that says it ever was

It does seem reasonable to say that the Hierate Route traveled through Drinax, or even that Drinax was the splitting point from the Florian Route into the Hierate Route. It is also reasonable to say that King Oleb XIV was.... less than strategic... in choosing to place a tax on goods when his system was not on an active trade route.

 

[J. L. Brown]

I know how to do Spec Trading between two normal planets for a normal trade route using the Trade Codes and such, but how does any of this work if you are spec trading between Tyokh and Imisaa? The write ups for the Hierate Trade Route, say they (The Hierate and the Imperium) sell certain things and buy certain things, but that is not reflected in the Trade Codes. How is this handled within the rules?

I'm not sure now to handle long-distance trade. That is 14 parsecs; just shipping freight from Tyokh-to-Imisaa would cost (7 x 1600 Cr =) 11200 Cr per dTon. It seems very likely that closer sources would be highly advantaged. Certainly low-value-per-dTon cargo (like bulk grain or ore) will not be moving this way. The Imperial-to-Florian (Imisaa-to-Ilnest) J2 trade route is even further at around 28 parsecs; 22400 Cr per dTon. There is a J3 (6x J3 + 1 J2) path from Ilnest-to-Nekrino at 17200 Cr per dTon, but it passes through Noricum (amber zone).

Maybe house-rule that 'exotic' goods from further distances away (and/or different polities, cultures, races, etc) command a price premium, at least for a small (easily saturated) fraction of the available market?

 

[MasterGwydion]

Setting a course towards topic.

One of the reasons Drinax was.... mistreated.... by the Aslan in 885 is the increase in taxation for trade passing through the Kingdom.

1 - This is one of the few canon references to taxing trade
2 - Drinax is not currently on the Hierate Route, I cannot find a reference that says it ever was

It does seem reasonable to say that the Hierate Route traveled through Drinax, or even that Drinax was the splitting point from the Florian Route into the Hierate Route. It is also reasonable to say that King Oleb XIV was.... less than strategic... in choosing to place a tax on goods when his system was not on an active trade route.

The Kingdom of Drinax, not the planet. Paal, Hilfer, Pourne, Bryni, etc, were all part of the Kingdom of Drinax.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I'm not sure now to handle long-distance trade. That is 14 parsecs; just shipping freight from Tyokh-to-Imisaa would cost (7 x 1600 Cr =) 11200 Cr per dTon. It seems very likely that closer sources would be highly advantaged. Certainly low-value-per-dTon cargo (like bulk grain or ore) will not be moving this way. The Imperial-to-Florian (Imisaa-to-Ilnest) J2 trade route is even further at around 28 parsecs; 22400 Cr per dTon. There is a J3 (6x J3 + 1 J2) path from Ilnest-to-Nekrino at 17200 Cr per dTon, but it passes through Noricum (amber zone).

Maybe house-rule that 'exotic' goods from further distances away (and/or different polities, cultures, races, etc) command a price premium, at least for a small (easily saturated) fraction of the available market?

The goods that travel the two Hierate route are not that high value. Some are, but some make no sense at all.

From the Trojan Reach book pg 12, "The Aslan import high-technology goods, spices and live animals; they primarily export petrochemicals, textiles, precious metals, crystals and gems and uncommon ore and raw materials."

Common Raw Materials Tyohk to Imisaa, cost to buy in Imisaa? 16,450Cr/ton
Textile Tyokh to Imisaa, cost to buy in Imisaa? 14,350Cr/ton

The higher priced items obviously are not as bad, but it is still usually at a loss. It makes no sense at all. Sending 50kton freighters to lose money, so there must be a mechanic that We are not seeing or has not been published.

 

[Condottiere]

Taken at face value, we could assume that humans are more efficient at high tech (consumer) products production, farming, and herding.

In exchange for raw materials, with no indication of added value processing.

 

[chipla]

The higher priced items obviously are not as bad, but it is still usually at a loss. It makes no sense at all. Sending 50kton freighters to lose money, so there must be a mechanic that We are not seeing or has not been published.

50kdton freighters aren’t using the spec trading rules, nor are the various corporations buying selling or taking advantage of said freight. The big boys play on different rules.

In the case of the free traders and other small ships that are the natural prey of the pirates of Drinax they are probably doing spec trade and freight loops along the trade lane marking trades with an eye to what their next stop needs rather than a stop two months down the line.

 

[MonsterX]

50kdton freighters aren’t using the spec trading rules, nor are the various corporations buying selling or taking advantage of said freight. The big boys play on different rules.

Yes, there are economies of scale to ship operation, mainly related to crew costs, which are a major expense for a 200 ton Free Trader, but decline rapidly with the size of the ship. The trade rules do not cover the operations of companies with steady business and long term contracts but rather just represent what small tramp traders (i.e. PCs) can pick up in short one-off transactions. Normal shippers will either provide liner services to companies and individuals needing shipping services between major destinations (which might be a number of jumps away), or large industrial/agricutural undertakings will have their own freighters specialized to the cargos they carry and routes they take. They might once in a while have an emergency shipment for which they contract to a tramp trader but this will be expensive, and therefore unusual, but enough to keep the PCs busy with shipping cargoes if that is what the PCs want to do. So we can assume that, for example, a trading firm might buys live animals that Aslan find tasty off of herders on an ag planet in the Imperium and have its own dedicated vessels that ship through the Trojan Reach to the Hierate. Since the market is big - many tens of billions, these vessels might be huge, and have a low cost-per-ton shipped, even if they have to do several jumps. Piracy would raise the cost because of the need for gunners and or convoys, but if the ships are big and escorted this would just be added in as the cost of doing business. Tramp traders might get involved only if, for example, there is a special order from an important customer that comes at a bad time, or if one of the big ships breaks down enroute and suddenly they need help to fulfill a contract, even if it is at a loss. Then they would have to pay the RAW rates, which don't allow much room for making money if you have to ship multiple jumps.

 

[Nelphine]

Right so the main expense is mortgage, which we assume is paid off for the big guys and not an expense. So that leaves maintenance, crew (large ships get good economy of scale), life support, fuel. I'm probably missing some, but it means standard shipping cost would be much lower for these than presented in CRB. Since mortgage and reduced crew is what, 90% of the usual expenses, that let's the big guys go 10 times as many jumps and still get the same profit margins. Then, since it's an export to another polity, we can assume prices will be at least twice as high as normal, so that let's them go a total of 20 times as many jumps as normal to still get the same profit margins.

Note: I haven't looked up the numbers, so the actual number of jumps they can go won't be exactly 20 times. But the idea is there, and can be calculated by the removal of the mortgage expense.

As a large shipping company, they can rely on doing enough trade to cover the cost of the ship (not mortgage) over the ships lifetime in order to cover the expense of buying the ship.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Right so the main expense is mortgage, which we assume is paid off for the big guys and not an expense. So that leaves maintenance, crew (large ships get good economy of scale), life support, fuel. I'm probably missing some, but it means standard shipping cost would be much lower for these than presented in CRB. Since mortgage and reduced crew is what, 90% of the usual expenses, that let's the big guys go 10 times as many jumps and still get the same profit margins. Then, since it's an export to another polity, we can assume prices will be at least twice as high as normal, so that let's them go a total of 20 times as many jumps as normal to still get the same profit margins.

Note: I haven't looked up the numbers, so the actual number of jumps they can go won't be exactly 20 times. But the idea is there, and can be calculated by the removal of the mortgage expense.

As a large shipping company, they can rely on doing enough trade to cover the cost of the ship (not mortgage) over the ships lifetime in order to cover the expense of buying the ship.

You can buy Live Animals within a single J-2 of Tyokh. Paal-Tyokh. They sell for normal prices. So how could a mega-freighter expect to compete with those prices? One J-2 with normal buying a selling points or 6 jumps with a J-3 ship. Even if you double the selling price, the one jump J-2 route still makes more money. 1 month round trip versus 6 months round trip. Think of the crew costs alone. Little ship gets paid for 6 times his cargo space, while the big boy coming from the 3I only gets paid for his cargo space once.