Why are the Sword Worlds not TL14?

[rust]

The Sword Worlds are a Confederation rather than an empire, and have both the advantages and disadvantages of such a governmental situation.

As Europe's history of technology demonstrates, the diversity of approa-
ches to research and development typical for a group of neighbouring in-
dependent nations often leads to a fast evolution of technology, while the
lack of such a diversity typical for empires tends to slow down the evolu-
tion of technology - in short, a confederation usually has a lot of "internal
competition" going on and encouraging new developments, while an em-
pire often does not and therefore tends to be more static.

 

[justacaveman]

The greatest advantage of the Imperium is it's size, this is also it's biggest problem.

A single world with sufficient population and resources is capable of ANY technological development. The problem with small size is production capability. Just because a single world has a TL of 15+ doesn't mean that it could challenge a group of TL 13 worlds acting as a single government.

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

I would leave their TL as it is, but include some TL14-15 elements.

Like a CruRon with a central TL15 Cruiser with half-a-dozen TL12 Light Cruisers around it.

The Zhos do give the SW some high tech stuff, but so far the SWs cannot manufacture it. The SW'rs can operate and replace damaged components, but they cannot manufacture TL13+ equipment. They buy Zho battle dress and glue horns on them...

I think the idea of a modern Isreal might be a good example here. After all, from the SW point of view, they are surrounded by enemies...

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

If the Swordies were as downright thick and aggressive as some of the posts seem to suggest, then their society would have destroyed itself centuries ago, or a combined Zho/Imp task force would have dealt with them.

Well that Zho/Imp task force hasn't dealt with the Vargr yet...

Probably because, once you start moving into the Vargr extents, there is nowhere to stop, each advance and occupation (with all its attendant problems) just brings you to another conflict. Better to hold the line and deal with the regular incursions.

The Sword Worlds though, in one sub-sector, pretty much surrounded, have nowhere to go, little room for manourve, and just their courage and skill deter external aggression.

Egil

 

[Cleon the Mad]

I think the basic idea as I see it is that the Sword Worlds tend to squabble a lot (the present Confederation has been in existance since 852, most of their interstellar governments don't last more then two to three hundred years or so), they are a very loose confederation so might not be sharing research as much as worlds within the Imperium, Zhodani Consulate, etc are sharing with each other, and maybe have a culture that's much less inclined to praise intelectuals. Otherwise, some of the culture's "Einsteins" might not WANT to persue a scientific field due to cultural bias against doing so. And I'm sure their military (or really militaries, they only unify into one Navy and one Army during times of war if memory serves) has no problem whatsoever with recruiting an "Einstein" to be an officer if he doesn't wish to go into a scientific field.

Having said that, there still would be SOME Sword Worlders who like the idea of being a scientist or engineer, and you'd think there still would be some reverse engineering of things captured or even bought from the Imperium, Zho's, captured from conflicts with the Darrians or perhaps even bought or captured from Vargr corsairs. So, if someone's campaign had the Sword Worlds with an average of TL 12, 13 or possibly even 14 I'd just shrug and say "sound's good, let's play".

Anyway, my thoughts as to why they average Tl 11 or so. Maybe not all GOOD reasons, but it's the ones I think exist.

 

[TC]

Please remember that while the Imperium is listed as TL 15, the average TL of the Imperium worlds is 11-12. The Fleet is TL 15, most everything else aways lower.

 

[DFW]

Please remember that while the Imperium is listed as TL 15, the average TL of the Imperium worlds is 11-12. The Fleet is TL 15, most everything else aways lower.

Interesting you should mention this. There is a Traveller site that did a statistical analysis on all published official UWPs. Stuff like what % of the Imperium population lives on what sized world, trade classification, etc., etc.
Well, when looking at what % of the pop lived on what TL planets, TL 15 had the single biggest %. So, while the average "world" may be 11-12, the average Imperial citizen, is closer to TL 15...

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

And something like 90% of the population of the 3I lives on high population worlds.

 

[DFW]

And something like 90% of the population of the 3I lives on high population worlds.

60% of the population lives on worlds TL 13+. Fully 27% @TL 15. Only 23% live at TL 10-12.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

There is also ship building capacity. Depending on what model you use might limit how much and what you can build. The old CT Striker and Trillion Credit Squadron rules gave guidelines on military budgets, size of shipyards and costs of imported equipment.

In CT with TCS a systems a local budget was 500Cr * Population * government modifier (which varied on type and its peace/war status). That was in local credits. There was a conversion system if a system was not building its own ships so they could contribute to the building star system. Components from other systems could not be delivered, only indirectly as part of the transferred credits.

In CT with TCS a system's shipyard capacity was population/1000 * goverment modifer.

So in that model only systems with Starport A, Tech 9+, with 100000 or more with port could build a starship of 100 tons with minimal jump drives. That small of a ship takes 40 weeks.
A 10,000 ton took 120 weeks and huge 500,000 ton dreadnoughts take 232 weeks.

There was also the 10% of ship cost going to maintenance of existing ships, dock repairs taking up shipyard capacity and so on.

That explains why in later years for the Rebellion Hi Tech, High Pop worlds were targeted once it got bad, only those areas had the ability to continue the war effort. Take those out and the enemy can no longer advance.

 

[rinku]

And something like 90% of the population of the 3I lives on high population worlds.

60% of the population lives on worlds TL 13+. Fully 27% @TL 15. Only 23% live at TL 10-12.

I agree with the sentiment (i.e in the Spinward Marches, the 80 billion inhabitants of Glisten skew the distribution a lot!) but where did the actual stats come from? I'm assuming you are just talking about one area, like the Marches?

Having said that, there is little incentive for ships to stray that far away from their home subsector, which means (apart from the military) that in the Marches you'll likely only see TL15 ships much in Rhylanor, Mora, Glisten and Trin's Veil. Certainly, over in Jewell subsector pretty much everything is going to be capped at TL12, since it's largely isolated by a J-3 rift.

Edit:
For the record, the total sum of Imperial worlds in the Marches that have Starport A, Tech 9+ and Population 6+ are:

Karin/Five Sisters (TL12, Pop7)
Iderati/Five Sisters (TL12, Pop7)
Jewell/Jewell (TL12, Pop9)
Mongo/Jewell (TL10, Pop6)
Vilis/Vilis (TL10, Pop9)
Efate/Regina (TL13, Pop9)
Regina/Regina (TL10, Pop8)
Adabicci/Lunion (TL11, Pop8)
Lunion/Lunion (TL13, Pop9)
Strouden/Lunion (TL13, Pop9)
Glisten/Glisten (TL15, Pop10)
Bendor/Glisten (TL12, Pop6)
Porozlo/Rhlanor (TL10, Pop10)
Rhylanor/Rhylanor (TL15, Pop9)
Fosey/Mora (TL10, Pop6)
Duale/Mora (TL11, Pop7)
Fornice/Mora (TL12, Pop10)
Palique/Mora (TL14, Pop9)
Mora/Mora (TL15, Pop10)
Edenelt/Trin's Veil (TL11, Pop8)
Trin/Trin's Veil (TL15, Pop10)

(I realise that Pop5 worlds can produce scoutships under the TCS rules, but figured that was not a significant factor here, so started with pop6).

 

[DFW]

but where did the actual stats come from? I'm assuming you are just talking about one area, like the Marches?

The entire 3I. Most people in the 3I live a very high tech existence. Also, the merchants in the Spinward Marches range throughout the sector due to the J1 Main. Most new ships would be TL 15

 

[starpilot]

One of the nice things the original Scouts supplement added was a more detailed TL system with a variation in technology for each world. A world with a TL12 and a more peaceful society might have medical and industrial TL14 but a military TL10.

Perhaps your vision of the Sword Worlds has the opposite scenario. A higher military TL and perhaps lower TL in other areas.

 

[rinku]

but where did the actual stats come from? I'm assuming you are just talking about one area, like the Marches?

The entire 3I. Most people in the 3I live a very high tech existence. Also, the merchants in the Spinward Marches range throughout the sector due to the J1 Main. Most new ships would be TL 15

The 'main isn't as good as you think. Rhylanor and Trin aren't on it, Glisten is isolated from casual J-1 due to Callia (which has no GG, starport E and no water) and having to leave Imperial space (plus it's a year by J-1 from anywhere of importance). Even Mora is 31 hexes from Regina.

The cost involved for a prospective merchant to travel from the spinward/coreward subsectors to Mora or Glisten to pick up a TL15 free trader (or to have it delivered) is prohibitive (and at best will take nearly a year after construction) when compared with getting a TL10-12 one built in their home subsector. The advantages of a TL15 ship compared to a TL12 one are trivial when weaponry is not a major factor, and TL10 will do fine for most.

I also maintain that most merchants are NOT going to be wandering from one end of the main to the other, but will be following local trade routes that are profitable. The Main would be more of string of overlapping operations in practice.

Yes, you will be able to find TL15 ships anywhere on the main. But I stand by my statement that local shipyards will produce the vast majority of civilian ships found in a subsector.

 

[DFW]

I also maintain that most merchants are NOT going to be wandering from one end of the main to the other, but will be following local trade routes that are profitable. The Main would be more of string of overlapping operations in practice.

Sure, if the merchants in your Spinward are that static, then no they won't get higher tech ships. I agree.

 

[rinku]

There's also the issue of maintenance and repair. Naval bases provide TL15 support to naval vessels, Scout bases *may* provide some TL15 support to scout vessels (depending on your take - the MGT Type S is TL10. I'd argue that only Scout Waystations would need to operate at TL15, with bases at default TL10-12), but you can't really expect an isolated TL10 facility to repair a TL15 ship. If you are using monthly maintenance (I use annual, myself), a high tech ship is going to find it difficult and/or expensive to operate very far from a base planet with the required tech.

At the end of the day, TL10-12 ships do the job, and there are several planets in each subsector that can repair and maintain them.

 

[DFW]

but you can't really expect an isolated TL10 facility to repair a TL15 ship.

That's not a problem. Spares & tech instructions are easy. It's not like you are rebuilding the CPU (giving an example) you are removing the damaged/worn out one from the socket and plugging in the new one. Annual maint. isn't rebuilding from scratch. It's replacing worn systems which are designed to be "unplugged" and the replacement part plugged back in.

When I take my car into the local garage to have something checked out they throw it on a diag computer and it tells them what needs to be replaced or, the manual tells them what needs to be replaced every 25k miles. The guys there don't have the tech know how to repair the part they replace. Nor could they build the replacement part. They simply follow the manufacturer instructions...

 

[starpilot]

Just to play devil's advocate, the TL15 replacement part might require TL15 tools to install it. Or at the very least TL13. The tolerance levels of TL15 jump coils with their reduced size might require more sensitive equipment to perform maintenance.

So as far as installing TL15 parts at a TL10 facility, I wouldn't allow it. There are factors we either don't know about or that are not readily apparent.

With a strong engineering/electronics/mechanical/etc roll, I would allow rolls from a facility up to three levels below with considerable penalty DMs.

 

[DFW]

Just to play devil's advocate, the TL15 replacement part might require TL15 tools to install it. Or at the very least TL13. The tolerance levels of TL15 jump coils with their reduced size might require more sensitive equipment to perform maintenance.

So as far as installing TL15 parts at a TL10 facility, I wouldn't allow it. There are factors we either don't know about or that are not readily apparent.

With a strong engineering/electronics/mechanical/etc roll, I would allow rolls from a facility up to three levels below with considerable penalty DMs.

Your game, your call. It's just not supported by the rules.

 

[locarno24]

Like a CruRon with a central TL15 Cruiser with half-a-dozen TL12 Light Cruisers around it.

CruRon?
I remember seeing the phrase in Honor Harrington books, but I always assumed the 'Ron' part of BatRon, CruRon, etc, was due to them being 'Royal Navy'.



But yes, if you have a sustainable civilization then you have to have the farmers/factories/engineers/etc.

The vikings were not in any way less advanced than their peer societies, and (as noted) their ships were a damn sight more sophisticated. Regardless of the Hollywood image of 'barbarians at the gate', you tend to find the better equipped civilizations have raiders pick on the less well equipped as often as the other way around.

As noted, almost any world will have variations in tech level across different disciplines, just the same as it has different law levels across different fields.

Just to play devil's advocate, the TL15 replacement part might require TL15 tools to install it. Or at the very least TL13. The tolerance levels of TL15 jump coils with their reduced size might require more sensitive equipment to perform maintenance.

So as far as installing TL15 parts at a TL10 facility, I wouldn't allow it. There are factors we either don't know about or that are not readily apparent.

Depends on what exactly you're doing, but yes, there will almost certainly be special tools & test equipment required for any job - even the diagnostics and line replacement stuff that's 'plug & play' replacement. On the other hand, that will be exactly the same for TL10 stuff, too - a facility will have the kit to do jobs X, Y & Z, and won't be able to do jobs A, B & C, even if they're a couple of TLs below the tasks it can do.

'General metal-bashing' won't exist in starship operations to a meaningful level any more than it does with something like a contemporary combat aircraft.


That said, if your putative Sword World government has bought a TL14 command cruiser, it's not going to be stupid enough not to buy the tools and test equipment to maintain it at the same time. Nor will the company who built it for them let them forget - supporting export contracts makes a LOT of money, and quite often involve some transfer of technology to the customer so he can look after his own stuff without having to ring up someone off-planet every few months to perform some convoluted handwavium on one of the components.