Traders and Gunboats - Has Landed!

Current theories of FTL require either the conversion of matter equal to the mass of Jupiter into energy at 100% efficiency, or a type of matter we have neither discovered nor explained a plausible reason for its existence yet.
BUT, recent articles have indicated that something along the lines of the Alcubierre Drive is technically feasible for the near future at slower than light, but faster than reaction drives without the imaginary exotic matter.
 
. . . math which is often the only proof we have for advance physics. Chaos theory is another example as is quantum physics; neither has been proven outside of mathematical proof.

Please elaborate on exactly what you mean by this statement regarding these two fields. Because quantum theory is most definitely backed up by an immense amount of empirical proof via rigorous experiment under laboratory conditions, despite numerous attempts to disprove it (even by some of its initial developers who disliked its implications, such as Albert Einstein).

It is true that some conjectures and speculations based on theory are based purely on mathematical considerations, but quantum theory is not one of them.

The test of a theory's veracity is that it makes predictions that can be tested under laboratory conditions to see whether what it is predicting should happen under a given set of circumstances either does in fact happen (validating the hypothesis) or does not happen (falsifying the hypothesis).
 
Last edited:
Please elaborate on exactly what you mean by this statement regarding these two fields. Because quantum theory is most definitely backed up by an immense amount of empirical proof via rigorous experiment under laboratory conditions, despite numerous attempts to disprove it (even by some of its initial developers who disliked its implications, such as Albert Einstein).

It is true that some conjectures and speculations based on theory are based purely on mathematical considerations, but quantum theory is not one of them.

The test of a theory's veracity is that it makes predictions that can be tested under laboratory conditions to see whether what it is predicting should happen under a given set of circumstances either does in fact happen (validating the hypothesis) or does not happen (falsifying the hypothesis).
The basics of Quantum theory is for each particle there are two states and both are valid and only through observation can we determine which is the state but Quantum theory also states that both choices by being valid must occur leading us to multiple universes which we have only proved by math. Now we have used theory for all sort of things but we have yet to prove that each state is valid since we cannot observe a particle in both states at the same instant but we have observed similar particles in the second state. Since observation determines the current state we cannot observe the particle at the same instance in the other state. So the first part of quantum theory that we can only know the state of a particle by observing it we can and have tested, the second part that both states are equally valid and therefore must both occur we can only prove by math and association.
 
Fusion power plants - science fiction
reaction drives based on fusion - science fiction
gravitics - science fantasy, or are they? Could it be our current theories are close to a breakthrough but we are not there yet?
FTL - science fantasy, but again is there any truth to the multidimensional nature of reality as proposed by many scientific theories, could we one day use other dimension to sidestep Einstein's stranglehold on FTL
psionics - fantasy, or will we discover that the quantum nature of our consciousness can do a lot more than we ever thought possible?

Push gravitics to TL9 and then jump to TL10 and you have TL8 as a fusion engine near future hard sci fi setting.

Unless you can show that any of the current crop of GUTs and TOEs have the potential for gravitics or interdimensional travel...

I always think of James Clark Maxwell - before his equations the universe of electromagnetic radiation was not only unknown, we didn't even know it was possible. Every technology we have now based on frequencies of electromagnetic radiation beyond visible light would be magic. You can't accidentally discover the radio transmitter and receiver unless you understand the wild theory of electromagnetic fields which may or may not be correct - fortunately it proved itself to be correct.

*ps I know we had discovered IR and UV as beyond the visible spectrum but no one had a clue what was going on, Maxwell and others opened up a whole new paradigm - to get gravitics a similar paradgim shift will be needed, and jump requires yet another.
Usual problem arising from the use of historical dates with TLs in the material. TL8 isn't 1980-89, it is when you achieve breakthroughs like in gravitics. Sigh! Carry on though.
 
The basics of Quantum theory is for each particle there are two states and both are valid and only through observation can we determine which is the state but Quantum theory also states that both choices by being valid must occur leading us to multiple universes which we have only proved by math. Now we have used theory for all sort of things but we have yet to prove that each state is valid since we cannot observe a particle in both states at the same instant but we have observed similar particles in the second state. Since observation determines the current state we cannot observe the particle at the same instance in the other state. So the first part of quantum theory that we can only know the state of a particle by observing it we can and have tested, the second part that both states are equally valid and therefore must both occur we can only prove by math and association.
That isn't even close to the basis of quantum physics. Off the top of my head the basis for quantum physics is that energy is not continuous but rather comes in discrete lumps called quanta. Next comes wave/particle duality, then came superposition and uncertainty. This gave rise to the wave function, which is a probabilistic determination of particle properties, from which emerge tunneling and entanglement. I'm more than happy to going the history and maths of all this.

Here is what Copilot plucked from the interwebs:

"Q - Can you put thes in order of discovery?"

" A - Certainly! Here’s the order of discovery for the key concepts in quantum physics:
  1. Quantization (1900): Max Planck introduced the concept of quantization in 1900 to explain blackbody radiation, proposing that energy is emitted in discrete packets called quanta.
  2. Wave-Particle Duality (1905): Albert Einstein proposed the idea of wave-particle duality in 1905 when he explained the photoelectric effect, showing that light can behave as both a particle and a wave.
  3. Heisenberg’s Uncertainty Principle (1927): Werner Heisenberg formulated the Uncertainty Principle in 1927, stating that it’s impossible to know both the position and momentum of a particle simultaneously with perfect accuracy.
  4. Superposition (1928): Paul Dirac and others contributed to the development of the concept of superposition in the late 1920s, describing how particles can exist in multiple states at once.
  5. Quantum Tunneling (1928): George Gamow and others around the same time as the superposition concept (1928) formulated the idea of quantum tunneling, explaining how particles can pass through potential barriers.
  6. Entanglement (1935): Albert Einstein, Boris Podolsky, and Nathan Rosen introduced the concept of entanglement in the EPR paradox paper in 1935, describing how particles can become instantaneously connected over long distances.
  7. Probability in Quantum Mechanics (1926 - 1932): The probabilistic nature of quantum mechanics was formalized by Niels Bohr, Werner Heisenberg, and others from the mid-1920s to early 1930s.
These discoveries revolutionized our understanding of the microscopic world and continue to influence modern physics."
 
Current theories of FTL require either the conversion of matter equal to the mass of Jupiter into energy at 100% efficiency, or a type of matter we have neither discovered nor explained a plausible reason for its existence yet.
BUT, recent articles have indicated that something along the lines of the Alcubierre Drive is technically feasible for the near future at slower than light, but faster than reaction drives without the imaginary exotic matter.
That just means out current theories are not good enough, there are other theories...

How about this which I have been working on with the help of Copilot:

"Theoretical Basis for FTL Travel

  1. Higher-Dimensional Space:
    • Warp Drive Mechanism: Imagine using higher-dimensional spaces to create shortcuts, akin to wormholes, allowing a spacecraft to traverse vast distances instantaneously. This would involve manipulating the space-time fabric by creating a warp bubble that contracts space in front of the vessel and expands it behind.
    • Inter-Dimensional Navigation: Utilizing the knowledge from multi-dimensional n-body problems to navigate through these higher dimensions safely and accurately.
  2. Cellular Automata:
    • Quantum Mapping: Use cellular automata to simulate and map the quantum state of the space-time fabric in real-time. This model could predict and control the formation of stable warp bubbles or wormholes.
    • Stability and Control: Cellular automata rules could ensure the stability of these FTL pathways by constantly adjusting the parameters based on real-time feedback from the spacecraft's environment.
  3. Hypergraph Theory:
    • Complex Interactions: Hypergraph theory could model the complex interactions within the multi-dimensional space, including gravitational forces, quantum fluctuations, and other exotic phenomena.
    • Dynamic Pathways: Use hypergraphs to visualize and compute the most efficient and stable paths through these higher dimensions, avoiding dangerous anomalies and ensuring the integrity of the spacecraft.

Practical Implementation in the Story

  1. Discovery:
    • Scientists discover that multi-dimensional space can be accessed and manipulated using advanced technology based on cellular automata and hypergraph theory.
    • The breakthrough comes when a theoretical physicist uncovers a way to stabilize warp bubbles using cellular automata to continuously adjust their parameters.
  2. Spacecraft Design:
    • Engineers design an FTL spacecraft equipped with a Quantum Warp Drive powered by advanced quantum computers that run real-time cellular automata simulations.
    • The navigation system uses hypergraph theory to plot the safest and most efficient routes through the multi-dimensional space.
  3. Mission:
    • The story follows a daring mission to explore a distant galaxy using this new FTL technology. The crew must navigate through the complexities of multi-dimensional space, encountering exotic phenomena and unknown dangers.
    • Along the way, they discover that their understanding of space-time and the universe itself is far more intricate than previously imagined.

Challenges and Drama:​

  • Unforeseen Anomalies: The crew encounters anomalies that the hypergraph models didn't predict, requiring quick thinking and ingenuity.
  • Ethical Dilemmas: The technology's potential misuse becomes a central conflict, raising questions about its impact on the universe.
  • Interpersonal Dynamics: The high stakes and confined space of the mission lead to intense interpersonal dynamics and character development.
In this sci-fi universe, the blend of cutting-edge theoretical physics and imaginative technology provides a rich backdrop for an exhilarating narrative. What do you think of this setup for FTL travel?"

I then asked it to adapt this to the Traveller jump drive:

"Enhanced Jump Drive Mechanics

  1. Multi-Dimensional Space:
    • Jump Points: Introduce the idea that jump drives access specific points in higher-dimensional space, creating shortcuts between star systems. These points are carefully mapped using n-body problem simulations to ensure stability.
    • Dimensional Mapping: Utilize the hypergraph theory to visualize and navigate these complex interstellar pathways, ensuring that ships can find the most efficient and safe routes through multi-dimensional space.
  2. Cellular Automata:
    • Quantum Stabilization: Implement cellular automata as a core part of the jump drive’s operation, continuously adjusting the quantum state of the space-time fabric to maintain the integrity of the jump.
    • Dynamic Adaptation: Use cellular automata to adapt the jump drive's parameters in real-time, responding to unpredictable cosmic phenomena and ensuring a smooth transition.
  3. Hypergraph Theory:
    • Path Optimization: Employ hypergraph theory to model the intricate web of possible jump routes, optimizing paths for safety and efficiency while avoiding potential hazards like black holes or supernovae.
    • Interstellar Navigation: Hypergraph models provide a detailed map of the galaxy, highlighting stable and unstable regions, which helps navigators plot their course.

Story Integration

  1. Advanced Technology:
    • The jump drive in the Traveller universe is depicted as cutting-edge technology derived from understanding higher-dimensional spaces and quantum mechanics.
    • Engineers and scientists continually improve the drive's efficiency by refining their cellular automata algorithms and hypergraph models.
  2. Exploration and Conflict:
    • The protagonist's ship might encounter ancient alien artifacts that reveal deeper knowledge of multi-dimensional travel, leading to new jump drive enhancements.
    • Rival factions or empires could seek to control this advanced technology, sparking conflict and intrigue.
  3. Challenges and Drama:
    • Navigational Hazards: The crew must navigate through uncharted jump points, relying on their understanding of cellular automata and hypergraph theory to survive.
    • Technological Malfunctions: Unexpected malfunctions in the jump drive could create tense scenarios, requiring quick thinking and problem-solving.
By weaving these advanced scientific concepts into the Traveller jump drive, you can create a rich and compelling narrative that blends hard science fiction with imaginative storytelling. How does this sound for your story?"
 
Quantum Theory is a theory in the same way that Gravity is.
The effects of Gravity is not a theory the cause of gravity is sill up for debate. Your trying to equate cause with effect in this case and in the case you Quantum Theory your saying that we have observed something that it is impossible for us to observe at least with current technology. But then people often have a hard time understanding the difference between what we have proven thru observational studies and what we extrapolate from those observations.
 
No, gravity is a theory. Just like Quantum theory is a theory. Observable results can be calculated and proven using both.
 
Gravity is what we call the effects we observe due to the curvature of spacetime, which in turn is due to the effects of mass/energy/pressure. The theory that describes this is called general relativity and has been subjected to many experimental tests. So far it has passed them all.

So we do know what causes gravity, there is no debate until it fails an experiment.
 
The effects of Gravity is not a theory the cause of gravity is sill up for debate. Your trying to equate cause with effect in this case and in the case you Quantum Theory your saying that we have observed something that it is impossible for us to observe at least with current technology. But then people often have a hard time understanding the difference between what we have proven thru observational studies and what we extrapolate from those observations.

Many people have a hard time understanding the difference between the definition of the word "Theory" on the one hand, and "Hypothesis", "Conjecture", or "Speculation" on the other, and conflate the two:

American Heritage Dictionary:
Theory: A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena.

The "Theory" is the complete body of material (i.e. observations, formulas, underlying presuppositions and propositions, etc) associated with a given line of explanatory thought concerning a phenomenon. As Hypotheses are verified through experiment (or at least fail to be falsified), they form a growing body of evidence that the material and reasoning associated with the nascent Theory is sound and forms a basis for a correct understanding of the phenomenon in question. The Theory (or elements of it) always remain open to more rigorous experimental verification, or modification, when further evidence shows that the Theoretical Model may only be correct under certain circumstances, or may be correct as far as it goes, but may need further refinement in light of new evidence.

We speak about the "Germ Theory of Disease" not because it is speculative, but because the term encompasses the complete body of knowledge and observation of everything that we know to date about germs and their relationship to the spread of disease (for those diseases that spread via this mechanism), and it has been confirmed to be correct thru experimentation and observation.

Newtonian Theory is still valid and used by everybody, even though today a more complete understanding of motion and gravity via the Special & General Theories of Relativity have confirmed via experiment that Newton's Laws of Motion & Gravity (a part of Newtonian Theory) are only excellent approximations of the phenomena within the range of values that we commonly encounter on the day-to-day scale, and thus Newtonian Theory required some modifications in light of the new evidence.

Quantum Theory is no different. It is not a speculation or conjecture, or a simple set of consequences implied by mathematical equations. It is an explanatory mathematically-based model that was developed to explain an observed set of phenomena that could not be explained by conventional scientific explanations within existing theories. That model was then used to make testable predictions such that if the model were true, then we should observe "X" if we do "Y", which should not otherwise happen. This is the process of experimentation and falsification. The goal of a controlled scientific experiment is to try to falsify the hypothesis and disprove it. This is also why all scientific theory is also always open to inquiry: it is never possible to "prove" something absolutely true, but only to state (with increasing levels of certainty with ever better and more rigorous testing) that something has failed to be disproven.

  1. Quantization (1900): Max Planck introduced the concept of quantization in 1900 to explain blackbody radiation, proposing that energy is emitted in discrete packets called quanta.

Quantization was a hypothesis that arose to explain the anomaly that in the Classical understanding of Electromagnetic Radiation as an electromagnetic wave (Maxwell's Equations) a blackbody would tend to emit the majority of its radiation in the ultraviolet and beyond, tending to infinity, known as the "Ultraviolet Catastrophe", which obviously was not happening (and in fact spectra could be observed to have particular peak frequencies, which should not be occurring).

  1. Wave-Particle Duality (1905): Albert Einstein proposed the idea of wave-particle duality in 1905 when he explained the photoelectric effect, showing that light can behave as both a particle and a wave.

By setting up an experiment that demonstrated the observable effect of quantization (i.e. the photo-electric effect, in which electromagnetic radiation was observed to be emitted in discrete packets carrying discrete energies that increased with associated intrinsic "wavelength"), Planck's hypothesis was validated, and light (and later all particles (cf de Broglie) were able to be shown under observable laboratory conditions to have both wave-like properties and particle-like properties, but not both at the same time. Reference: the double-slit experiment where either light or electrons (for example) are sent thru a double-slit and strike a detector plate on the other side. They strike the plate as a series of individual "points" (like particles), but when enough of them have passed through to fill the plate full of strikes, the "pattern" of strikes replicates a wave interference pattern, where the most intense parts are where the most strikes occurred and the least intense are where the fewest (or none) occurred. The most intense part is dead-center on the other side of the slits between the slits, with a somewhat less-intense band to either side, and then a yet less intense band to the farther side of those, etc, of continually decreasing-intense bands as you move away from the center position of the plate. The problem is that this is literally impossible for a particle trajectory to pull-off. A particle must go thru either one slit or the other, so you should see two peaks - one centered on the left slit, and one on the right slit. It should be least intense (in fact zero intensity) dead-center behind the slits, but this is where it is most intense, just like a wave approaching both slits and going through both and emerging through both on the other side and creating an interference pattern with itself. But they strike the plate like individual particles.

So if you reconfigure the experiment with a detector at each slit to measure photons or electrons passing through the slit, you will get a reading as to which slit they went through, but the wave interference pattern on the plate disappears and they strike the plate in two peaks like you would expect particles to do, as noted above.

@tytalan: That is not all conjecture or math. It is observation in a laboratory. So are they particles or waves? You tell me.


  1. Probability in Quantum Mechanics (1926 - 1932): The probabilistic nature of quantum mechanics was formalized by Niels Bohr, Werner Heisenberg, and others from the mid-1920s to early 1930s.

The explanation that was finally arrived at (and verified to be correct thru rigorous experimental testing) was that the operator describing the position (or momentum, etc) of the "particle" was probabilistic in nature, and the resulting equation that was derived was giving the probability value of the operator (the "expectation value") for the particle at any given point that the equation was describing (the sum over the whole range of values equaling "1"). This derived probabilistic equation happened to be a wave equation in mathematical form.

Thus, in the double-slit experiment, when the "photon" or "electron" approached the double-slit, there was a certain probability regarding its "position" that it went thru either the one slit or the other (or it impacted the near wall on the near side and did not go thru the slits at all), and on the other side, for those that did go thru the slits, the mathematical waveform describing the probability of the position of the photon or the electron had now had two mathematical probability waveforms (which described the particle's possible position), one associated with each slit, and the two waveforms "interfered with each other" and produced a wavelike probability interference pattern as the particles individually struck that far plate. When people set up detectors to detect which slit the particles were going thru, they interfered with the probabilities (it was now 100% and 0%, or visa-versa), and the probability interference pattern disappeared.

@tytalan: The math accurately explains the observations for numerous and varied behaviors. So is Quantum Theory just a conjecture? You tell me.
 
Last edited:
Okay I have been schooled and I can accept that I am wrong. That stated this brings us back to the original statement that Traveller is science fantasy not science fiction so using science as a guide to anything not covered by the rules specifically is rubbish. To counter this I would like to point out that we have now found the Higgs particle which creates the Higgs Field which is creates the effects of mass and gravity. And like many other fields we have discovered in the pass (for example electromagnetic fields ) we can potentially discover how to control that field leading to Travellers grav technology which is supposed to be a core component of Jump drive. Seem like Traveller is Science Fiction.
 
That's not quite correct either. Quantum fields give rise to their associated particles, not the other way around.

The Higgs particle does not create the Higgs field. Particles are the excitation of quantum fields. It doesn't create the majority of mass or by extension gravity. An excitation of the Higgs field can be detected as Higgs boson.

The mass due to Higgs field interation of the quarks and electrons in your body is ~5% of your total mass.

The majority of the mass is the binding energy within the nucleons due to the mass-energy equivalence.

 
Last edited:
. . . we have now found the Higgs particle which creates the Higgs Field which creates the effects of mass and gravity. And like many other fields we have discovered in the past (for example electromagnetic fields ) we can potentially discover how to control that field leading to Travellers grav technology which is supposed to be a core component of Jump drive. Seem like Traveller is Science Fiction.

Well, partially . . .

Energy is what gives rise to mass, and the presence of mass within spacetime causes spacetime to become warped, which in turn dictates how masses move through it (this is the observed effect that we call gravity).

When the Standard Model of Particle Physics was being formulated, one of the questions in particle physics was that for a fundamental particle (i.e. a particle that is not built up from smaller sub-components such as the neutron, which is composed of two down quarks and one up quark, the quarks themselves being fundamental), what was giving them their mass? Where did it come from?

For non-fundamental particles like a proton or neutron that were composed of smaller component particles bound together by an intermediary force such as the Strong Force (described by the Theory of Quantum Chromodynamics), the Binding Energy in the potential associated with the interaction of the quarks thru the Strong Force could account for some of that mass as bound "rest mass" for the proton or neutron. But a fundamental particle has nothing "inside" interacting with each other to give rise to forces and potentials and binding energies that in turn give rise to mass. Why did certain fundamental particles like the electron (or any of its sibling Leptons, for that matter), or quark have mass, as opposed to being massless? Some physicists proposed models in which these particles were not in fact fundamental, in which they had a further underlying particle-substructure common to all of them. These models were later disproven by better particle colliders in experiments that did not reveal the existence of the necessary consequences of these conjectures should they be true.

So if there was no internal force-interaction going on within the particle giving rise to potential-energy/mass, then perhaps there was some type of external interaction going on between the fundamental particle and the spacetime environment. Peter Higgs (and ~4-5 other physicists whose names usually get forgotten by people) proposed a mechanism within the constraints of the Standard Model Theory whereby there was a field permeating space with which the fundamental particles were interacting (now called the "Higgs Field"). Unlike most fields whose ground state has a value of "zero" (e.g. the electromagnetic field is "neutral" in its ground state), the ground state of the Higgs Field would have a positive value. Likewise, the Higgs Field is a Scalar Field. Unlike Electric and Magnetic Fields or the Fields of the Strong Force which are Vector Fields that carry both a magnitude and a direction for their associated force at any given point, a Scalar Field only has a magnitude (i.e. it is not "directed" anywhere). When a particle that couples with the Higgs Field moves through it, the potential of the energy of the interaction between the particle and the field gives rise to the mass, which it gains from the field.

So the Higgs Field does account for some mass, but not most of it. And it is mass (i.e. energy) itself that causes the bending of spacetime that causes the effect of gravity as objects move through the distorted spacetime into the future.
 
Last edited:
To counter this I would like to point out that we have now found . . . the Higgs Field . . . . And like many other fields we have discovered in the past (for example electromagnetic fields ) we can potentially discover how to control that field . . .

FOLLOW-UP: Now, in light of the fact that the Higgs Field was proposed along with the mechanisms that give rise to the unification of Electromagnetism and the Weak Nuclear Force as the Electroweak Force at high enough energy levels (confirmed in 1983, and which I believe is above the energy of the interaction potential of the Higgs Mechanism, IIRC), and that it is likely that there is some form of Grand Unification (Grand Unification Theory - GUT) of the Electroweak and Strong Force at much higher energy (Electronuclear Force ??), and Traveller presupposes that technology can harness this fact and manipulate it at about TL12 (Nuclear Dampers and Meson Screens, et al), how might the ability to manipulate the Higgs Mechanism (~ TL12+) be employed technologically?
  • Higgs Mass-reduction? A mass-reduction field for Reaction-Engine (or other) propulsion)?
  • Massless or light-weight Leptons (electrons/positrons/muons, et al) how could they be used?
  • How does this affect the manipulation of nuclear processes?
Anything anybody else can think of?
 
FOLLOW-UP: Now, in light of the fact that the Higgs Field was proposed along with the mechanisms that give rise to the unification of Electromagnetism and the Weak Nuclear Force as the Electroweak Force at high enough energy levels (confirmed in 1983, and which I believe is above the energy of the interaction potential of the Higgs Mechanism, IIRC), and that it is likely that there is some form of Grand Unification (Grand Unification Theory - GUT) of the Electroweak and Strong Force at much higher energy (Electronuclear Force ??), and Traveller presupposes that technology can harness this fact and manipulate it at about TL12 (Nuclear Dampers and Meson Screens, et al), how might the ability to manipulate the Higgs Mechanism (~ TL12+) be employed technologically?
  • Higgs Mass-reduction? A mass-reduction field for Reaction-Engine (or other) propulsion)?
  • Massless or light-weight Leptons (electrons/positrons/muons, et al) how could they be used?
  • How does this affect the manipulation of nuclear processes?
Anything anybody else can think of?
Given that Higgs is sort of a sideshow when it comes to mass, I would think messing with the strong force or making the gluons whacky would be the way to reduce mass. But if what you're doing is removing that energy from the nucleus... it's gotta come out somewhere (he says as the city melts)
 
Push gravitics to TL9 and then jump to TL10 and you have TL8 as a fusion engine near future hard sci fi setting.
This. Been doing this for ages IMTU. Apply Stage Effects on the tech and you have a setting where TL 8-11 is an Expanse-style, cyberpunky mech universe and TL12+ becomes the OTU. I find it very key to opening up the “near future” and then having what feels like a logical progression within the TLs as well within the game universe.

Theoretical Physics is not my cup of tea so I won’t expound upon what I don’t know but dark matter/energy is an easy out for FTL/jump physics at my table.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top