Why are the Sword Worlds not TL14?
- Thread starter Egil Skallagrimsson
- Start date
DFW said:
That's not the point. The point is that the manufacturer is located two or three subsectors away, 20-30 jumps worth following the main. In real terms that means a pipeline of 6-12 months so you'd better hope that there hasn't been a run on Ling Standard MkXXX jump coils (or whatever) when you limp in to, say, Vilis with a damaged TL15 jump drive. At the very least, the cost in distributing high tech parts halfway across the marches is going to raise prices. That's simple economics.
These places are frontiers and backwaters. They have local manufacturing bases (often quite large ones) and are a long way from the Trailing industrial heart of the Marches. Their ships are going to be mainly locally built because that's what the local shipyards can support.
Perhaps high tech level requires exotic materials that are rarely found within chartered space. The SW, being a relatively small number of planets, simply may not have access to these materials. Whereas the Imperium and the Zhodani Consulate have sufficient planets to supply these materials.
Secondly, as in the real world, scientific and engineering progress is greatly helped by what is called "critical mass". At these high tech levels, perhaps the critical mass is a more nebulous society-wide concept and the SW are simply too small (or progress is slowed).
I look forward to the Sword World supplement.
Secondly, as in the real world, scientific and engineering progress is greatly helped by what is called "critical mass". At these high tech levels, perhaps the critical mass is a more nebulous society-wide concept and the SW are simply too small (or progress is slowed).
I look forward to the Sword World supplement.
Egil Skallagrimsson
Mongoose
Stainless said:
Ageed, should be much more interesting than one about dishonourable and deceitful space pixies.
Perhaps it will even "solve" this thread.
Egil
rinku said:
Actually, that is the point. It just sailed by you. The manufacturer makes SURE that this doesn't happen so that people keep buying their ships. I don't know if you have run a decent sized multinational. If you have, you understand what I'm speaking of. If not, reread the example you just commented on. It is VERY spot on.
Rikki Tikki Traveller
Cosmic Mongoose
DFW said:
Actually, the stats are just math from the world creation rules.
2.6% of all mainworlds are going to have a population of 10 Billion or more (population A). You can do the same percentage for each of the other population numbers, then you just add them up.
It take 10 worlds with Population 9 to equal 1 world with population A. The Average population is 5 (2d6-2), so just figure out how many worlds with a population of 500,000 does it take to equal a world with a population of 50,000,000,000?
The answer is 100,000.
That's right, there is a 0.0001% chance that a random person from this type of situation would come from any world other than the Population A world.
You can do the same kind of analysis with the Tech Level (it has been done many times). That is where the numbers come from: Math.
Thinking of my Pandora setting, this would mean that each megacorpora-DFW said:
tion that produces starships would send a complete set of at least all the
common spare parts for each of their models to each of the colonies whe-
re one of their starships might land and need maintenance or repairs.
Egil Skallagrimsson
Mongoose
rust said:
Yes, ... and no. Many parts will be built to be interchangable, and the repair shops on class A, B, and C starports will carry substantial spares. Other parts are fabricated by local franchises, who may be producing parts for a number of different mega corps. This is perhaps why much civilian starship tech is around TL 12. More advanced, or military, tech will be more of a problem to get hold of.
Of course, as the Swordies will have reverse engineered higher tech military equipment from Imperial and Darrian wrecks, and Zhodani gifts, they will be able to repair their higher TL military equipment. A passing armed free trader may find it impossible to get hold of such items, though.
Egil
This is the way I handle it in my setting, but it means that starship crewsEgil Skallagrimsson said:
often have to wait a couple of weeks for the spare parts to arrive, becau-
se many parts - especially high tech electronics - simply cannot be fabri-
cated on a frontier world, or would take up too much of the local manufac-
turing capacity - and unless the starship captain can offer a substantial
bonus payment, the local needs will doubtless come first.
Egil Skallagrimsson
Mongoose
I think that in a 3I type setting repairs and spares will be well organised, esp along the busy mains, so if the players are paying their monthly maintence, not sustaining extreme battle damage, if maintence is being done at a C+ starport and if I don't need the group to be stuck on that particular planet, I roll 1d6 and that is the number of days required to complete the monthly maintence. Typically this is combined with discharging and loading cargo, a little r&r etc.
Works well enough in practice for that kind of universe, but with a more "frontier" type universe, I can see the arguement for longer stops, perhaps not every month, by certainly at times.
Egil
Works well enough in practice for that kind of universe, but with a more "frontier" type universe, I can see the arguement for longer stops, perhaps not every month, by certainly at times.
Egil
Again thinking of my setting, the most common merchant vessel in the re-Egil Skallagrimsson said:
gion is a hyperdrive variant of the LSP Modular Starship. Most of the fron-
tier colonies have the most common spare parts for this type of ship, and
this in turn encourages the free traders as well as the frontier lines to use
this type of ship.
If someone wanted to introduce a different type of merchant vessel into
the region's trade routes, he would start with a serious disadvantage, un-
less he really had the money to establish a depot of spare parts on each
of the colonies - which is highly unlikely and not necessarily a good idea
to invest money.
rust said:
Yes, it would. Just like how in Trav cannon within the Imperium, Annual Maint. can be performed at ANY Class A or B starport irrespective of the ships TL. Also, explains Starports being independent of the local world and how there are starports on worlds whose TL is insufficient for space flight.
rust said:
I dunno if your average megacorporation would send parts on its own, but then again I see no reason why a world with a port D or better wouldn't be able to get parts if it said, "Hey Megacorp, your ships land here sometimes needing maintenance or repairs. Wouldn't it be a good idea if we had some parts on hand to repair them?"
If asked, I think they would for D or better, but I don't think they'd think of it on their own. And they might not for E ports ("Oh, I'm sorry, those parts seem to have been delayed by processing.")
Parts suppliers are in it for the money...
http://www.allbusiness.com/public-administration/national-security-international/698548-1.html
Long logistics tails run counter to this 'lean manufacturing'
Anything that can cut the length of this supply tail shorter will likely be done.
If a ship, or even just parts of a ship can be built on lower tech worlds, they probably will be.
Even if the only benefit is eliminating shipping and warehousing costs. If the savings outweigh the benefits, then the part will be lower tech than the '15' maximum.
For a megacorp, shaving a fraction of a cent off the parts cost of the supply chain cost can save millions, if not billions for high volume parts.
http://www.allbusiness.com/public-administration/national-security-international/698548-1.html
Long logistics tails run counter to this 'lean manufacturing'
Anything that can cut the length of this supply tail shorter will likely be done.
If a ship, or even just parts of a ship can be built on lower tech worlds, they probably will be.
Even if the only benefit is eliminating shipping and warehousing costs. If the savings outweigh the benefits, then the part will be lower tech than the '15' maximum.
For a megacorp, shaving a fraction of a cent off the parts cost of the supply chain cost can save millions, if not billions for high volume parts.
Just to clarify the default rules as written that DFW is relying on:
Starport capabilities: (Basic rules p.178)
Type A:
Construct small craft, standard ships and capital ships.
Repair facilities
Refined fuel
Type B:
Construct standard ships & small craft (latter mentioned on p105)
(P105 also mentions that only ships without J-Drives can be constructed)
Repair facilities
Refined fuel
Type C:
Construct small craft.
Repair facilities
Unrefined fuel
Type D:
Limited repair facilities (only hull hits, not systems)
Unrefined fuel
Type E & X:
No facilities.
p.178: "Repair facilities allow a damaged ship to be repaired, and have plenty of spare parts formost common systems."
p.143: "A destroyed system costs 2d6 x 10% of its original cost to repair and cannot be repaired using spare parts - it can only be repaired at a world with the appropriate Technology level or a well-equipped starport".
p.105: "Ships designed using the system here are constructed using off-the shelf parts that are common throughout the Imperium."
High Guard p.52: "The Traveller core rulebook gives rules for building spacecraft as they are built in most shipyards across the Imperium - a mix of common off-the-shelf components, lowest-contractor-offer hulls, and electronics imported from high-tech or industrial worlds across the subsector. The overall tech level of the resulting spacecraft is roughly TL12, regardless of where it was built."
So, yes. I concede that any class C starport will allow routine repair of non-destroyed systems of standard (i.e. TL12) systems. However, TL15 systems, whatever DFW may run in his own campaign, are *explicitly* not standard. When it comes to replacement of a destroyed system, tech level does matter. It's up to the referee what a "well equipped" starport may be, of course, but I'd be excluding type D and limiting type C to local tech without some kind of roleplay or quest to locate the parts.
Starport capabilities: (Basic rules p.178)
Type A:
Construct small craft, standard ships and capital ships.
Repair facilities
Refined fuel
Type B:
Construct standard ships & small craft (latter mentioned on p105)
(P105 also mentions that only ships without J-Drives can be constructed)
Repair facilities
Refined fuel
Type C:
Construct small craft.
Repair facilities
Unrefined fuel
Type D:
Limited repair facilities (only hull hits, not systems)
Unrefined fuel
Type E & X:
No facilities.
p.178: "Repair facilities allow a damaged ship to be repaired, and have plenty of spare parts formost common systems."
p.143: "A destroyed system costs 2d6 x 10% of its original cost to repair and cannot be repaired using spare parts - it can only be repaired at a world with the appropriate Technology level or a well-equipped starport".
p.105: "Ships designed using the system here are constructed using off-the shelf parts that are common throughout the Imperium."
High Guard p.52: "The Traveller core rulebook gives rules for building spacecraft as they are built in most shipyards across the Imperium - a mix of common off-the-shelf components, lowest-contractor-offer hulls, and electronics imported from high-tech or industrial worlds across the subsector. The overall tech level of the resulting spacecraft is roughly TL12, regardless of where it was built."
So, yes. I concede that any class C starport will allow routine repair of non-destroyed systems of standard (i.e. TL12) systems. However, TL15 systems, whatever DFW may run in his own campaign, are *explicitly* not standard. When it comes to replacement of a destroyed system, tech level does matter. It's up to the referee what a "well equipped" starport may be, of course, but I'd be excluding type D and limiting type C to local tech without some kind of roleplay or quest to locate the parts.
I mostly agree, although I have a problem with the starport types as de-
scribed by the rules.
For example, it is no problem even for a Type E starport to install a fuel
processor (1 dton, 50,000 Credits) and provide refined fuel, and with the
additional 400 Credits per ton of fuel sold that fuel processor could soon
generate a profit.
As for repairs, battle damage or similar types of damage should indeed
be impossible to repair at a Type D or E starport. However, I would not
be surprised if the locals would keep common replacement parts for the
ship of their favourite free trader available, because it would be in their
own best interest to make sure that their "lifeline" off planet is not inter-
rupted.
scribed by the rules.
For example, it is no problem even for a Type E starport to install a fuel
processor (1 dton, 50,000 Credits) and provide refined fuel, and with the
additional 400 Credits per ton of fuel sold that fuel processor could soon
generate a profit.
As for repairs, battle damage or similar types of damage should indeed
be impossible to repair at a Type D or E starport. However, I would not
be surprised if the locals would keep common replacement parts for the
ship of their favourite free trader available, because it would be in their
own best interest to make sure that their "lifeline" off planet is not inter-
rupted.
