Arkathan
Emperor Mongoose
Playing the new version, having to adjust my CT biases to challenge the players. I've basically been the only one running Traveller among the people I know and the people they know for 45 years.
Thoughts on the Dark Imperium
- Thread starter actionman
- Start date
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
Yeah. I know the feeling. I miss being a player. lol
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
The topic has shifted to Ziru Sirka and RoM colonisation, the Vilani would not use robots, canonically the Terrans did.
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
Yeah. Terrans and their stupid fascination with science fiction!
Yes, we are coming from different assumptions. I find the idea of "Vilani cultural rigidity" as it is frequently expressed to be utterly implausible. And, in fact, contradictory to the (admittedly limited) materials we have on the Vilani. I think this is a complete, albeit common, misreading of the Vilani and a typical example of how games tend to take relatively minor things and turn them into "hats" because there's a general lack of other details.
I think it is implausible that there was a single Vilani culture developed in the 300,000 years they advanced on Vland, any more than there was on Earth with a similar period of development. The Vilani were on Vland as long as Terrans were on Terra. It seems unreasonable to me that there are not multiple subcultures of "Vilani" the way there are of Terrans.
The Vilani invented a wide range of technologies faster than Terran humans did. They expanded across an enormous area, met many races and cultures, and were clearly dynamic and adaptable. The Vilani sourcebook portrays them as consensus seeking, but not as "rigid". Also, they admire the individual who makes the right call in an emergency without waiting.
The LATE PERIOD VILANI GOVERNMENT was highly rigid and collapsed as a result. That no more defines the "Vilani" than the Ramshackle Empire defines Terrans as incompetent vandals.
I do think that the situation on colony worlds is very different from the situation of the 100 or so worlds where humans "evolved". The fact that they start from spacefaring technology means they don't have layers and layers of ruins, bizarre theories like "the four humors", and all that. But it doesn't mean they are immutable.
But it doesn't mean that these colonies were uniform in origin, planning, or even that there was only one group colonizing a given world. It especially does not solve the problem that communications are extremely slow and humans naturally diverge when groups are relatively isolated from each other. There's no effective solution to that enormous communication lag. Human populations maintain cohesion by constant interaction and shared experiences.
Different events, different environments, unique technologies, unique personalities and popular movements will all happen on worlds and it'll be weeks or months before people elsewhere even think about reacting to them. Yes, education if it is maintained, will keep some things in common. But school curricula changes and people popular culture doesn't derive from only education.
It is important, imho, to keep in mind that the people writing about "The Vilani" are almost always writing about the Vilani Imperial government. And, most often, the version encountered by the expanding Terrans. That's like learning about the lives of Appalachia townfolk by discussing the nature of Washington DC politicians.
Throw in the many cultures of the Solomani and other aliens, minor races, etc and several thousand years of post-First Imperium and it's going to be quite significantly different.
Obviously, there's a limit to anyone's creativity and also the value of actually making diverse cultures in terms of gameplay. That's why we have one Vilani culture and one Solomani culture and one Aslan culture, etc. But, imho, no one should actually think that represents the facts on the ground. Because it is unlikely in the extreme that it actually would.
There's certainly nothing wrong with simplifying culture down to something manageable. Everyone does that for whatever value of manageable they personally have. But the fact that it is a simplification and practically unlimited complexity would actually exist ought to be kept in mind.
I think it is implausible that there was a single Vilani culture developed in the 300,000 years they advanced on Vland, any more than there was on Earth with a similar period of development. The Vilani were on Vland as long as Terrans were on Terra. It seems unreasonable to me that there are not multiple subcultures of "Vilani" the way there are of Terrans.
The Vilani invented a wide range of technologies faster than Terran humans did. They expanded across an enormous area, met many races and cultures, and were clearly dynamic and adaptable. The Vilani sourcebook portrays them as consensus seeking, but not as "rigid". Also, they admire the individual who makes the right call in an emergency without waiting.
The LATE PERIOD VILANI GOVERNMENT was highly rigid and collapsed as a result. That no more defines the "Vilani" than the Ramshackle Empire defines Terrans as incompetent vandals.
I do think that the situation on colony worlds is very different from the situation of the 100 or so worlds where humans "evolved". The fact that they start from spacefaring technology means they don't have layers and layers of ruins, bizarre theories like "the four humors", and all that. But it doesn't mean they are immutable.
But it doesn't mean that these colonies were uniform in origin, planning, or even that there was only one group colonizing a given world. It especially does not solve the problem that communications are extremely slow and humans naturally diverge when groups are relatively isolated from each other. There's no effective solution to that enormous communication lag. Human populations maintain cohesion by constant interaction and shared experiences.
Different events, different environments, unique technologies, unique personalities and popular movements will all happen on worlds and it'll be weeks or months before people elsewhere even think about reacting to them. Yes, education if it is maintained, will keep some things in common. But school curricula changes and people popular culture doesn't derive from only education.
It is important, imho, to keep in mind that the people writing about "The Vilani" are almost always writing about the Vilani Imperial government. And, most often, the version encountered by the expanding Terrans. That's like learning about the lives of Appalachia townfolk by discussing the nature of Washington DC politicians.
Throw in the many cultures of the Solomani and other aliens, minor races, etc and several thousand years of post-First Imperium and it's going to be quite significantly different.
Obviously, there's a limit to anyone's creativity and also the value of actually making diverse cultures in terms of gameplay. That's why we have one Vilani culture and one Solomani culture and one Aslan culture, etc. But, imho, no one should actually think that represents the facts on the ground. Because it is unlikely in the extreme that it actually would.
There's certainly nothing wrong with simplifying culture down to something manageable. Everyone does that for whatever value of manageable they personally have. But the fact that it is a simplification and practically unlimited complexity would actually exist ought to be kept in mind.
collins355
Cosmic Mongoose
I assumed that the 1st Empire Vilani were modeled on the Ming Chinese, who famously turned away from the sea and burnt their huge treasure ships. China stagnated for hundreds of years thereafter until overrun by the Mongols and then the Europeans.
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
I agree.
I agree again.
Nitpick - the terrans actually invented stuff faster, we went from space travel to jump drive in just over a hundred years. It took the Vilani centuries.
Both the Vilani and the Terrans used STL ships to explore and colonise - Terrans sent their ships off on thousand year missions for some reason, while the Vilani colonised nearby world to Vland and built an interstellar society before jump drive.
You mean teh Ziru Sirka, administered as three satrapies with a shadow emperor in oversight - it lasted over a thousand years.
4717 BC - Vilani discover jump drive, a period of exploration and trade begins that establishes a Vilani hegemony
1480 BC - establishment of the Bureaux - peacful trade hegemony continues
912 BC - hidden history event, jump 2 discovered
882 BC - consolidation wars, this is when Vilani culture noticeably shifted
473 AD - end of consolidation wars, Ziru Sirka founded - shadow emperor appointed
2314 Ad - Ziru Sirka under new management
The colony should begin with a subculture of the polity that establishes it.
The British Empire spread British culture - to the governors compound
Leave the areas under direct British control and the native cuture dominates. When the Empire shut its doors many former colonies maintained British culture in their government, legal and education systems.And it doesn't take long for these differences to change the nature of the cultural base.
The same can be said for every race in Traveller, all Aslan are like this, all Vargr are like this, all K'kree are like this... no, just no.
I agree once again.
Notice how The Traveller Adventure gave us details for many different world cultures, but very little cultural diversity within these.
How many major cultures are there on Earth? How many minor cultures, how many sub-cultures...
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
I can't count that high.
actionman
Emperor Mongoose
I think a lot of it is left undefined, and I never got the impression that there was one Solomani culture. I always thought that the Solomani cultures were diverse as they spread across the stars and remained diverse into the Third Imperium. A lot of your arguments for cultural diversity in the Traveller setting I accept for the Solomani and the Spinward Marches (which was not part of the Ziru Sirka, and settled by diverse groups). And the Vargr, they all had their charisma seeking and other typical Vargr behaviors, but they were always described as diverse, and especially mutable culturally and politically relative to Humaniti. The Aslan, I guess, in that they all have species specific behaviors and they all live in clans, males don't do money, they all want more land, etc. Anyway, it was a thought provoking discussion!
actionman
Emperor Mongoose
Really, I think it's highly plausible that's exactly how the Terrans were. I think Terran contact with Vilani populations, especially when Terrans penetrated to the Ziru Sirka interior, would be extremely destructive. All the problems and pathologies of Terra (plagues of infectious diseases, STD's, drugs and addictions of various kinds, sugar and bad food, organized crime, etc.) would be unleashed on population after population that would be completely defenseless, biologically and socially. I think the logical consequences of this kind of contact are completely glossed over in all versions of Traveller, except with a brief mention of plagues and then of course the Terrans distributed cures and it was all ok. There would be Terran independent merchant ships selling who knows what, setting up drug labs, and giving the local girls cooties. I wouldn't be surprised if there were Ziru Sirka worlds where Terrans were mobbed and/or shot if they came out of the starport (origin of extrality?).
The Aslan specifically have a "cultural purge" so the Heirate clans are the ones that follow "The Aslan model". We know there are other Aslan out there that behave differently. They just are outside the Heirate. After all, they had to have a cultural purge because they didn't all have a single view of "how to be Aslan". Even after it, you have a fair bit of differentiation within the clans. But nearly everything written about them is written about "Aslan in the Heirate". Which I think is fine. It's saying this is the baseline. There's other Aslan cultures, but here's the starting point.
I am aware that Traveller has basically never explored the Vilani beyond a bit of what they were like at the end of the Ziru Sirka. Beyond that, we know that the Vilani are normal homo sapiens with some variation from Terrans, but not enough to really change anything. Everything we know about them is that they are as human as Terrans are, with different cultures but the same nature.
It's actually also rather important to note that "Vilani" as it is used in many places is a cultural label rather than a biological one. Anyone called a "Vilani" in the Third Imperium is because they specifically retain certain cultural traits from the late 1st Imperium. The humans who don't act like that aren't called Vilani, even if their ancestors were from Vland. So, in a sense, the Vilani all have that Vilani culture because that's the definition of what makes someone Vilani.
But the vast majority of Homo sapiens vlandensis don't.
I am aware that Traveller has basically never explored the Vilani beyond a bit of what they were like at the end of the Ziru Sirka. Beyond that, we know that the Vilani are normal homo sapiens with some variation from Terrans, but not enough to really change anything. Everything we know about them is that they are as human as Terrans are, with different cultures but the same nature.
It's actually also rather important to note that "Vilani" as it is used in many places is a cultural label rather than a biological one. Anyone called a "Vilani" in the Third Imperium is because they specifically retain certain cultural traits from the late 1st Imperium. The humans who don't act like that aren't called Vilani, even if their ancestors were from Vland. So, in a sense, the Vilani all have that Vilani culture because that's the definition of what makes someone Vilani.
But the vast majority of Homo sapiens vlandensis don't.
actionman
Emperor Mongoose
I know that's the rules, but I've never agreed with it, just my opinion. I think it goes back to the CT idea that everyone is so mixed that you can't tell the difference between Solomani and Vilani without genetic testing and they all think of themselves as "Imperial". IMO there simply weren't enough Solomani in former Ziru Sirka space for this to happen, but no one asked me. On Solomani-Vilani worlds near the Sphere it's completely plausible, but not for the Imperium as a whole. IMO, it's more plausible that there would be Vilani populations in which people might have a little bit of Solomani heritage, like less than 10%. And there would be remnant Solomani populations that would still exist if they kept to themselves, if there were enough Solomani on a particular world to sustain a population.
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
Some of these worlds would have only been receiving 1 ship a month at their starports. That is not enough contact to maintain a monoculture. Add to the fact that most people on the world never even meet anyone from off-world and you have a perfect recipe for a diverse Vilani race.
On the other side of this coin, the Solomani. Even if there were 20 billion Solomani at the start of the Interstellar Wars, how many Vilani were there? This would seem like the same thing as calling a person Chinese because his great-great-great-great grandfather was Chinese. Vilani blood would entirely overpower the Solomani blood due to simple dilution. (Unless of course, every single Vilani genetic trait is recessive.)
Oh, I agree that the Solomani populations are grossly exaggerated. I mean that the Vilani are humans and behave like humans. They are homo sapiens mentally and psychologically. They will have different cultures, but they are just as subject to human cultural change and behaviors as any Terran. They aren't going to be able to sustain a 15,000 world monoculture. Or even attain a single world monoculture. That's not how humans work.
There are lots of homo sapiens vlandensis that are not the Late Imperial Vilani culture. Because they never were (they were a part of a non dominant culture from Vland) or they changed because of local conditions or they met some funny bug people or someone invented a great religion they really liked.
As much as the Shadow Emperor and his cronies want to stagnate the Empire, it is literally impossible to do across the size of the Ziru Sirka. They can control the central government and some of the spacefaring culture. But all those planets? Just no. The Vilani would need to be psychologically not human for that kind of conformity to exist.
There are lots of homo sapiens vlandensis that are not the Late Imperial Vilani culture. Because they never were (they were a part of a non dominant culture from Vland) or they changed because of local conditions or they met some funny bug people or someone invented a great religion they really liked.
As much as the Shadow Emperor and his cronies want to stagnate the Empire, it is literally impossible to do across the size of the Ziru Sirka. They can control the central government and some of the spacefaring culture. But all those planets? Just no. The Vilani would need to be psychologically not human for that kind of conformity to exist.
actionman
Emperor Mongoose
Something that occurred to me during this thread is that in this conception of the Dark Imperium, the Imperial nobility have a lot more to do.
IMO this is far more interesting than good guy nobles who don't have any power, don't manage worlds, don't really do all that much, try to mediate, and go on goodwill tours.
Edit: I changed intelligence services and assets to intelligence networks, because I meant unofficial networks of spies and so on run by the noble fiefholder, rather than detachments or field offices of official Imperial intelligence agencies.
- They interact diplomatically and politically with planetary governments to ensure their planetary fiefs continue to produce.
- They make sure taxes are paid on time and in full.
- They probably manage intelligence networks which officially and unofficially promote Imperial policy, influence planetary politics, and generally try to influence affairs to go in a direction the Imperium or the Imperial noble wants (not necessarily the same things).
- They coordinate with the local starport officials and Imperial garrison commanders.
- They work diplomatically and politically to prevent or respond to violations of Imperial policy.
- They manage their own personal fiefs (meaning land they personally own, rather than their planetary fiefs) and business interests.
- They politick and socialize with other Imperial nobles and strive to increase their wealth, power, and status.
- They're probably involved with the military preparedness of any household military forces they control, and remain ready to deal with any military contingencies that arise (uprisings, invasions, pirates, etc.).
- They probably work with the planetary government on local military matters.
- They take trips to the subsector capital a few times a year to give reports to the subsector duke, meet other nobles, and get on with noble business like the social news network, arranging marriages, talking political fiefholder shop, arranging intrigues, and looking for business opportunities.
- Noble children would probably be educated on the subsector capital, or another world in the subsector that is a large cosmopolitan commercial hub. It would be boarding schools and academies for younger children and universities and military academies when they got older. After that they'd probably get positions in the Imperial armed forces, the Imperial bureaucracy, megacorporations, or return home to help manage their mother/father's planetary fief or business interests.
IMO this is far more interesting than good guy nobles who don't have any power, don't manage worlds, don't really do all that much, try to mediate, and go on goodwill tours.
Edit: I changed intelligence services and assets to intelligence networks, because I meant unofficial networks of spies and so on run by the noble fiefholder, rather than detachments or field offices of official Imperial intelligence agencies.
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actionman
Emperor Mongoose
Absolutely. I completely agree. The so-called Solomani aristocracy would be Vilani with tiny percentages of Solomani heritage and a belief that they're Solomani, and maybe a few cultural holdovers. It's not impossible that there would be distinct Solomani populations on Vilani worlds in the core of the former Ziru Sirka, but certain conditions would have to be met.
- There would have to be enough of a Solomani population, like at least 10,000 or something.
- There would have to be an appropriate balance between Solomani men and women so that Solomani could find mates within the Solomani population.
- There would have to be cultural norms that would motivate Solomani people to mostly have Solomani mates.
The original vision of the Empire had Imperial government start with the Subsector Dukes and other nobles were just people who got rewarded for doing a good job for the Empire. Some of them (or, more likely, their descendants) may have parlayed that into local power. But with a few weird exceptions, there was no evidence that Imperial nobles short of Duke served any more purpose than British aristocracy does today.
Personally, I prefer a Russian Table of Ranks vision where the noble titles are attached to jobs. Imperial Ambassador to West Nowhere? Congrats, that makes you a Baron". But that's total house rule.
Later, those random bits like the comment that the Marquis of Aramis owes fealty (whatever that means in this context) to the Count of Celepina got expanded and expanded into this whole network of nobility that had no clear purpose.
They need a purpose and the Dark Imperium purpose described above is a reasonably go of it.
Personally, I prefer a Russian Table of Ranks vision where the noble titles are attached to jobs. Imperial Ambassador to West Nowhere? Congrats, that makes you a Baron". But that's total house rule.
Later, those random bits like the comment that the Marquis of Aramis owes fealty (whatever that means in this context) to the Count of Celepina got expanded and expanded into this whole network of nobility that had no clear purpose.
They need a purpose and the Dark Imperium purpose described above is a reasonably go of it.
actionman
Emperor Mongoose
I disagree, I laid out my arguments in my posts above. I think the isolation would contribute to stasis on each world, while contact with other races and cultures would contribute to change. Vilani culture would drift somewhat on different worlds according to local conditions, but it would still be Vilani. After 1500 years of the Long Night, Vilani speakers on one world might end every sentence with "no cap!" while those on others don't, but they're still speaking Vilani. The diversity that @Vormaerin laid out his arguments for, I think that is very plausible for the Solomani Sphere and the Spinward Marches, which were settled by different groups.
Right. You and I just disagree on whether the Vilani are one culture or a bunch of cultures derived from the same planet. I think the Vilani (as a people) are as diverse as the Terrans. And the "Vilani culture" mostly discussed is the dominant one at the Imperial court, not something that existed on 15,000 worlds.
actionman
Emperor Mongoose
Where we agree is that there were many regional cultures and languages on Vland during its history, but where we disagree is that I think these cultures would've been largely homogenized by the time the Vilani entered their interstellar age.
Examples which inform my thinking include the formation of Germany out of the individual German states in the 1800's, Russia having 200 official nations in it but Russian language and culture predominating, China same deal, and even France (the Bretagne, Occitans, etc. had to speak French and become French). In Spain the Basques and Catalonians still exist as distinct nations with their national identities, but they are largely assimilated. In the UK the regional identities survive, and to some degree the ancient British languages, but even then the languages had to be resuscitated with deliberate effort. This happened naturally as groups interacted with each other, but also because of deliberate, systematic, and often brutal efforts by national governments to forge modern national identities out of many ancient nations. Sometimes I feel a little sad about all the languages and cultural heritage that were lost by this.
Something else is that the Traveller writers over the years never mentioned Vilani national and cultural diversity, so if I thought that there were various distinct Vilani nations and cultures, I would be creating head canon. And, you did state in a recent post that this issue should've been addressed much earlier in Traveller's development.
Anyway, we've both laid out our arguments, and had an engaging discussion. As with many threads on this forum, I'm sure it provided many readers with ideas for how they want to have their own TU's.
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