Who actually rules a planet?

[Condottiere]

Established Titles

Purchase a personal Lordship or Ladyship Title Pack with dedicated land in Scotland.*

Our Title Packs are based on a historic Scottish land ownership custom, where landowners have been long referred to as "Lairds", the Scottish term for "Lord", with the female equivalent being "Lady".

Every Lordship or Ladyship title pack contributes to the preservation and protection of woodland areas in Scotland. As the intention is for the land to be kept in its natural state, we ask that all interested parties do bear this in mind.

 

[Vormaerin]

thanks either way, I don't think the (Imperium) guys below duke hold much in the way of power

If you mean does just being Count of Natoko give any direct power, then no they don't have much power. They have status and influence, but they don't rule anything. The only "power" that comes directly from being a Count is membership in the Moot.

I suspect that the Library Data entry that mentioned Counts being associated with several planets was intended to reflect situations where the subsector is too disjointed or low density to justify a Duke. Which apparently the Aramis subsector doesn't. So the highest officials might be a group of Counts. One for the Towers Cluster, one for the Aramis Trace. But in most places, being a Count doesn't have that kind of government function on its own.

 

[Garran]

Counts could also be designated lieutenants of the Duke to deal with specific worlds/areas that need extra attention, and in those cases they would wield actual power, if only by proxy.

 

[Vormaerin]

Yes, but that is because of their job, not because they are a Count. That authority would be the same whether it is wielded by a commoner, a knight, a baron, or a count. And a pretty edge case even so, given that the Imperium barely cares what happens on planets as long as they aren't rebelling or nuking each other.

 

[Vormaerin]

It is important to remember that Nobles can't make subordinate nobles. Only the Emperor can grant patents of nobility for Barons, Counts, and Dukes. And the differences between Barons, Marquesses, and Counts are purely social. How wealthy they are and what kind of personal influence they have is going to be more about other factors. The Marquis of Aramis is very wealthy and has a lot of influence because he's got big business holdings and is related to the Tukera family. There's a very good chance his personal oomph is higher than his next door neighbor, the Count of Natoko. He'd just have a less prestigious seat at the big soiree at the Duke of Praetoria's house.

 

[Condottiere]

Two things can be true at the same time.

Landed nobility has fiefs and regions that must be personally administered and supervised, except for periods when they are required to travel.

Unlanded nobility are gifted land grants that they draw revenue from, which can be administered by proxies.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Where does the land come from to gift to these nobles?
The Imperium doesn't "own" many planets... there is evidence of the Ministry of Colonisation planting colonies...
does the Imperium buy land from member worlds to grant to nobles...
does the Imperium require a tithe of land for its nobles as a joining requirement...
how many locals are elevated to noble status when a world joins the Imperium...

 

[Condottiere]

 

[Sigtrygg]

That's not how the Third Imperium grew.
It was mostly by "inviting" worlds and pocket empires to join up - a bit of "persuasion" may have been necessary.
Look what happened when someone said "no thanks" and could back it up with their own fleets...

 

[Vormaerin]

Two things can be true at the same time.

Landed nobility has fiefs and regions that must be personally administered and supervised, except for periods when they are required to travel.

Unlanded nobility are gifted land grants that they draw revenue from, which can be administered by proxies.

Lots of things *could* be true. But there is no support for the idea that any personal administration is going on except for subsector dukes. It does say that land grants are given (and T5 even has rules on what they are). But there's no information about how this land comes into the Imperium's possession or any explanation of why real estate would be the preferred stipend associated with nobility.

 

[Condottiere]

1. It's likely that when a planet joined the Imperium, a part of it's territory becomes Imperium (Reserve) Territory, from which fiefs are initially established.

2. It would be easier just to gift the nobility preferred stocks, which can't be sold, in megacorporations.

3. So the question would be why bother to create specific fiefs tied to specific Imperium titles?

4. There's lots of unclaimed territory on most planets; instead of a horse, you could be looking for a working submersible.

6. Also, an institution that existed for a millenium, and expects to exist for another, might have a very good grasp of economics and the business cycle.

7. This institution could wait for the planetary real estate market to crash, and buy up choice bargains.

8. Why did the real estate market crash, who knows?

9. A little repackaging and reselling the property to various hedge funds, holding companies and trusts for a century, it comes into direct Imperium ownership, and gets gifted.

 

[Sigtrygg]

1. That's not what happened.
2. Nobles don't own the megacorporations, nor does the Imperium, nor does the Emperor.
3. Status for the local uplifted dignitary, the fact remains the Imperium begins at the subsector level with the duk.
4. No. The planet belongs to the planetary government.
6. Which it doesn't - but it does have a big stick to keep everyone in line.
7 - 9. Just like a mob racket...

 

[Vormaerin]

Actually, the few times that it does breakdown who owns the megas, it generally "Emperor" and sometimes "imperial nobility" as significant shareholders. There's almost always "private shareholders" and "other" with substantial holdings as well. But they certainly don't control the megas and there is certainly no OTU evidence of stock fiefs.

It is clear that OTU, fiefs are land grants. Its not at all clear how that land became the Emperor's to grant.

 

[Condottiere]

1. Fiefs are revocable, so they have to be within the gift of the Imperium, if not the Emperor.

2. Preferred stock guarantees returns, not control.

3. Subsector level is where direct Imperium administration begins.

4. Local sovereignty; however starport downport and Imperium military bases represent extraterritoriality.

6. Velvet glove over iron fist tends to prevent hurt feelings, and therefore, resentment.

7. For example, eminent domain, which should be used as a last resort, so doing it sneakily seems the smarter move.

 

[Sigtrygg]

If only there was a way to find out who owns shares in the megacorporations...
Delgado Trading, LIC:
Stock ownership: lmperial family-5%, Delgado family- 47%, Noble families-
27%. Private ownership- 21 %
General Products, LIC:
Stock ownership: lmperial family- 5%, Hortalez et Cie- 26%, Noble
families- 35%, Private ownership- 12%, Antares Holdings, LIC- 12%, Other- 10%
GSbAG:
Stock ownership: Hortalez et Cie- 19%. lmperial family- 4%, Noble families
(includes the families of the legendary founders)- 44%, Other corporations- 13%.
Private investors- 4%, Other- 16%
Hortalez et Cie, LIC:
Stock ownership: Hortalez family- 74%, Other corporations- 15%, Imperial
family- 5%. Other- 6%
Instellarms, LIC:
Stock ownership: Murdoch Holdings, LIC- 32%, Hortalez et Cie- 30%, Noble
families- 8%, Ling-Standard Products- 6%, lchiban Interstellar, LIC- 5%,
GSbAG- 5%, Sternm'etal Horizons, LIC- 8%, Other- 6%
Ling-Standard Products:
Stock ownership: lmperial family- 8%, Hortalez et Cie- 26%, GSbAG- 23%,
Noble families- 8%, Murdoch Holdings, LIC- 8%, Other- 27%
Makhidkarun:
Stock ownership: lmperial family- 5%, Noble families- 28%, Hortalez et
Cie- 28%, lnvestment trusts- 25%, Private ownership-14%
Naasirka:
Stock ownership: lmperial family- 4%, lnvestment trusts- 24%, Noble
families- 23%, Hortalez et Cie- 11%, Other corporations- 14%, lgsiirdi family-
13%, Private ownership- 11 %
SuSAG, LIC (Schunamann und Sohn AG, LIC):
Stock ownership: Schunamann family- 52%, lmperial family- 2%%, Hortalez
et Cie- 9%, Other corporations- 23%%, Private ownership- 7%, Other- 6%
Sharurshid:
Stock Ownership: lmperial family- 2%, Hortalez et Cie- 29%, lnvestment
trusts- 32%, Noble families- 18%, Antares Holdings, LIC- 19%
Tukera Lines, LIC:
Stock Ownership: Tukera family- 29%, lmperial family- 3%, Other corporations-
9%, Private ownership- 31 %, lnvestment trusts- 28%
Zirunkariish:
Stock ownership: Shiishuginsa family- 29%, lmperial family- 18%, Sharurshid
trust- 17%, Hortalez et Cie- 7%, Noble families-12%, lnvestment trusts- 8%,
Private ownership- 9%

Note how the Emperor doesn't have a major stake in any of them.

 

[Vormaerin]

I was never sure why they distinguished between Noble Families and Private Ownership. I'm assuming "other" is the usual institutional investors, but that's not clear either.

Regardless of what you consider the fief to be (fief just means "grant of income in exchange for vassal service"), the published materials provide no explanation of where the Imperium gets whatever it is that it grants. The Imperium has massive expenses so it presumably has equally massive revenues (or debts or both), but at no point is that covered officially either.

If it is important on your campaign, you are going to have to decide what a given noble's fief actually is and, if necessary, why the Imperium owns that source of revenue to be able to grant it.

Early medieval fiefs were land grants, because land was the only reasonable source of income. Later, as money revenues increase, you got more household knights and others with money-fiefs. Though more often, it worked the other way: the service was commuted for money. There's no intrinsic reason fiefs need to be land grants in the Imperium, but that is what the usual example is.

 

[GypsyComet]

Where does the land come from to gift to these nobles?
The Imperium doesn't "own" many planets... there is evidence of the Ministry of Colonisation planting colonies...
does the Imperium buy land from member worlds to grant to nobles...
does the Imperium require a tithe of land for its nobles as a joining requirement...
how many locals are elevated to noble status when a world joins the Imperium...

1. Worlds cede a certain amount of their surface upon joining the Imperium. The Starport is set within that area, typically, but does not occupy all of it. The rest of Crown Territory can be turned into fiefdoms or left fallow. Some worlds tried to cheap their way out of the requirement by ceding ocean, but the Imperium just built what it wanted there instead and the world was left to get out to the port on the local dime.
2. Very rarely, the Imperium decides that a world is not fit to rule itself, either due to there being no one home when they came calling, or rampant stupidity on the part of the locals. These are the Imperial Reserves, Scout Waystations, Naval Depots, etc.
3. No, it was ceded upon gaining membership. A Noble can use his own income to buy locally controlled land, but it does not become Crown Land.
4. Sort of, as already noted. The Imperium took a tithe upon membership, and uses that land as it sees fit.
5. No more than a handful typically, depending on the economic promise of the world. Knights Resident are usually locals, as were most other titles originally. Some of that has drifted over 1100 years.

I suspect that the Library Data entry that mentioned Counts being associated with several planets was intended to reflect situations where the subsector is too disjointed or low density to justify a Duke. Which apparently the Aramis subsector doesn't. So the highest officials might be a group of Counts. One for the Towers Cluster, one for the Aramis Trace. But in most places, being a Count doesn't have that kind of government function on its own.

A Count is given the responsibility to see his worlds grow and succeed, despite not ruling them directly. He'll have a big, and likely ancestral, fief on his County Seat and roughly the same amount of territory spread out among the other worlds of the County and possibly beyond. An amusement park here, an office complex there, maybe a few shipping companies just to keep stuff moving, and likely a lot of space to rent to others who want to grow their businesses off-world.

"Milord, I would like to arrange for my goods to see the markets of other worlds, but I can get no footing with the shipping brokers here or storage abroad. The Aerarchy does not seem inclined to assist me as they care little for off world matters."
"I see, and am inclined to assist your launch. I can speak to certain ship Captains who owe me a favor or two, and I have a modest warehouse in the next system that my Seneschal can provide the details of. Provide me and my agents free access to your export books and the books specific to that port, and x% of your profits on that world and you may use the warehouse for a period of two years. We will then revisit our arrangement."
Ad infinitum.
The Count likely owns the out-system warehouse (and many others like it there and on his Seat world) outright, as a predecessor in his Office built it on Fief land. He also probably sits on the Board of the Subsidy Group who oversee/fund the Type Rs he'll be introducing the local producer to. He'll have a few staff on each of his County worlds, supported by local rents and other incomes, and will know people who know people. He'll have all of "his" Knights Resident on speed dial, as well as any Barons or Marquis within the County. Every planetary ruler, be it an individual or some deliberative body, within the County will know his name and has probably met him. Unless something really bad or really good happens he *is* the Imperium to those world rulers. If things go sideways or amazingly (or one of their worlds is also the Ducal seat), they *might* know the local Duke as well, but the Count is where the buck stops most of the time. Counts are powerful at the scale most worlds operate in, and most citizens know better than to mess with an Imperial High Count.

It is worth reading Marc's "Agent of the Imperium" for its periodic looks at elements of the setting that are not the Agent himself. The chapter regarding the newly installed Baron, particularly when his ties to the world are explained, is handy in this discussion.

 

[Vormaerin]

That's nice and all, but there's absolutely none of that anywhere in anything published for Traveller. It is as reasonable a IMTU vision as anything else.

As for Agent of the Imperium, what it says is: “Fourth, the Barony, now manifest in your person, stands at the head of our system of governance, primarily as the ultimate court of appeal."

That is fine for a particular world, but it is directly contrary to how the overall system is presented in all the materials for the Third Imperium game setting. So I am not inclined to consider it representative.

 

[Condottiere]

That would be the baronial court.

I tend to think an appointed knight or baronet is the local justice of the peace.

The count's role could be that of the shire reeve.

 

[Vormaerin]

It would be none of those things, though you can do it that way in your campaign, naturally. That planet in AotI, Sima, is a low pop, low tech agricultural world that still practices serfdom and medieval feudalism. The staff of his estate is bound to manor and the other land holders came and pledged feudal vassalage. That is a specific circumstance of that specific world.

Actual land holding oath swearing feudalism is, in fact, an utterly awful system of government for a trade federation (or Empire). It is a system designed to propagate exactly the opposite values from what the Imperium is going for, which is free trade, capitalism, exchange of ideas, nope to another Long Night.

There aren't that many worlds that get a deep dive into how they work. But none of the ones we have (Azun, Bellerophon, etc) have any mention of Imperial nobles, much less any reference to them actually having any planetside power. Where we do have mention of Imperial nobles (Aramis, Regina, Mora), pains are taken to point out that they aren't in charge of the planetary government. Or, in the case of the Marquis of Aramis, they are in charge of the planet for reasons unrelated to being the Marquis.

There are some knights in a few of the recent Mongoose adventures, but they aren't running the planet either. They are just sort of there with some vague "set a good example" mandate that they largely fail at (hence why it is an adventure).