I'm reading The Third Imperium and trying to understand where precedence sits in rulership of a planet. If a subsector duke says everyone should wear red, the count which controls the planet says they should wear green, but the planetary government says blue, which would win out? There is also a concept that a system can "own" another system, which seems to suggest that this sits outside the authority of the nobles. There is one example where a system in one subsector owns a system in a different subsector, which then falls under a different duke! Can anyone shed light on this?
Who actually rules a planet?
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G'Naakbusters
Cosmic Mongoose
Someone else will answer this a lot better than I (and may already have done so by the time I post), but...
The world government officially controls the planet outside of the starport zone; the Imperium controls the space between worlds and also the starport, because it's basically an interstellar trade empire. Technically, so long as the world obeys the high laws of the Imperium -- no chattel slavery; no nuclear, chemical or biological weapons; no interfering with free trade; (no rebelling against the Imperium or we'll burn your rainforest...) -- that world can do what it wants, including colonising, waging war, etc. Unofficially, the Imperium can make its displeasure with a planetary government known in any number of ways, subtle and not. Sometimes the Imperial nobility turns a blind eye, sometimes it comes down hard, sometimes there seems to be an uneasy power balance betwen the Emperor's Noble and the state government, sometimes the Noble *is* the local head of state, so that makes it easier. Sometimes the local nobility see the region as their playground/property (Deneb comes to mind), sometimes they're more interested in what fads are happening in Core than what's going on in their area, etc. Sometimes they're locals deeply invested in their world, sometimes they're appointed governors keeping a stern eye on things... it's complicated.
Really, the Imperium is arguably just like, say, the Hivers or the K'kree. It's not really in charge of your world in any legal sense, it's in charge because it says so and because it can make you do what it wants. It's not as subtle, friendly, or insidious as the Hivers, though it does prefer a soft touch if possible and is often genuinely humanitarian (for want of a broader word); it's not as brutal as the K'kree though it can be rather shockingly ruthless in repressing dissent; it's not as honour-obsessed as the Aslan but it does place importance on a sense of honour; it's not as "anything-goes" chaotic as the Vargr but it is flexible and far from monolithic.
The world government officially controls the planet outside of the starport zone; the Imperium controls the space between worlds and also the starport, because it's basically an interstellar trade empire. Technically, so long as the world obeys the high laws of the Imperium -- no chattel slavery; no nuclear, chemical or biological weapons; no interfering with free trade; (no rebelling against the Imperium or we'll burn your rainforest...) -- that world can do what it wants, including colonising, waging war, etc. Unofficially, the Imperium can make its displeasure with a planetary government known in any number of ways, subtle and not. Sometimes the Imperial nobility turns a blind eye, sometimes it comes down hard, sometimes there seems to be an uneasy power balance betwen the Emperor's Noble and the state government, sometimes the Noble *is* the local head of state, so that makes it easier. Sometimes the local nobility see the region as their playground/property (Deneb comes to mind), sometimes they're more interested in what fads are happening in Core than what's going on in their area, etc. Sometimes they're locals deeply invested in their world, sometimes they're appointed governors keeping a stern eye on things... it's complicated.
Really, the Imperium is arguably just like, say, the Hivers or the K'kree. It's not really in charge of your world in any legal sense, it's in charge because it says so and because it can make you do what it wants. It's not as subtle, friendly, or insidious as the Hivers, though it does prefer a soft touch if possible and is often genuinely humanitarian (for want of a broader word); it's not as brutal as the K'kree though it can be rather shockingly ruthless in repressing dissent; it's not as honour-obsessed as the Aslan but it does place importance on a sense of honour; it's not as "anything-goes" chaotic as the Vargr but it is flexible and far from monolithic.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
It's probably hands off for culture, society, and religion; diktats are the sort of thing that can trigger resentment, if not revolts.
Resource allocation and taxation.
Resource allocation and taxation.
G'Naakbusters
Cosmic Mongoose
To tie this in with the opening question:
The Subsector Duke is very unlikely to demand that everyone wear red and not blue, because if he does, it's quite likely there will be unrest, resentment, and all sorts of tensions. And when the Sector Duke looks over the reports and sees a lot of angry "trouble" markers hovering over that one subsector, he'll call on the Subsector Duke and ask him what he thinks he's doing. If he doesn't, and things get worse, and there's an eventual Down With The Vile Red-Filth of the Imperium, True Blue-Wearer revolution disrupting the sector's trade, then he himself will be in trouble with the Domain Archduke.
If the planetary government wants to insist everyone wear blue, it can do that. So long as it understands that the rule applies to the planet only, not to Imperial jurisdiction in space (and at the starport). And so long as it doesn't let it get in the way of giving the Imperium its due -- i.e. they can't refuse to receive the Noble because he's wearing red.
To use a more realistic, canonical example -- the Geonee, who are part of the Imperium, are strict in their gender roles. Only males are politicians. That's how they do things, that's fine. But they couldn't refuse to receive or obey an Imperial Noble because she was female. They couldn't disregard an order from the Empress -- but by the same measure, the Empress is not going to demand that they adhere to Imperial mainstream culture and drop the sex role distinction in their own jurisdiction.
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Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
Imperial government begins at the subsector level with the subsector duke who has oversight of tax collection.
Individual worlds rule themselves but have to pay lip service to Imperial law (often ignored). As long as they pay their protection money - sorry - their taxes then the Imperium leaves them alone and provides... protection.
Individual worlds rule themselves but have to pay lip service to Imperial law (often ignored). As long as they pay their protection money - sorry - their taxes then the Imperium leaves them alone and provides... protection.
Thanks for the replies, it's beginning to make more sense in the Imperium - World dichotomy, but I'm wondering about Duke - Count relations now within the same subsector. How much does a Count have to play ball with the Duke and what measures does the Duke have if the Count becomes difficult?
Geir
Emperor Mongoose
(disclaimer: going off memory and not checking sources)
It comes down to who ennobles someone. The answer to that is the Emperor does.
So in theory there's a hierarchy (and even a convoluted reason why a Count now outranks a Marquis - don't like those French titles anyway - that was an aside to an aside and this is another one, been that sort of day) running: Archduke (if there is one) -> Sector Duke -> Subsector Duke -> Count -> Marquis -> Baron (and if you go by T5 sprinkle in some not-subsector dukes (with a little d) and viscounts (with a little c) and baronets (with a little b but actually appointed by Archdukes , so what I'm about to say doesn't strictly apply)...
But when it comes down to it, if that Count is the Emperor's squash partner, and that Duke is from some family that once slighted the Emperor's great-uncle over some arcane precedence thing, then the Count doesn't need to listen to the Duke and if the Duke complains too loudly, then he's the new Count of Louzy (I always wanted to be Count of Louzy, but I missed out on the time they were handing out titles).
It comes down to who ennobles someone. The answer to that is the Emperor does.
So in theory there's a hierarchy (and even a convoluted reason why a Count now outranks a Marquis - don't like those French titles anyway - that was an aside to an aside and this is another one, been that sort of day) running: Archduke (if there is one) -> Sector Duke -> Subsector Duke -> Count -> Marquis -> Baron (and if you go by T5 sprinkle in some not-subsector dukes (with a little d) and viscounts (with a little c) and baronets (with a little b but actually appointed by Archdukes , so what I'm about to say doesn't strictly apply)...
But when it comes down to it, if that Count is the Emperor's squash partner, and that Duke is from some family that once slighted the Emperor's great-uncle over some arcane precedence thing, then the Count doesn't need to listen to the Duke and if the Duke complains too loudly, then he's the new Count of Louzy (I always wanted to be Count of Louzy, but I missed out on the time they were handing out titles).
The reality is that it makes no sense and has never been explained. The lowest level of imperial government is the subsector and its Duke. Titles are granted for service or inherited, but other than the Subsector Dukes and up, they don't seem to come with jobs. However, CT Library data says that a Marquis is associated with a particular world and a Count is associated with several worlds. Without ever explaining what that means. They aren't part of the world government. There's no discussion anywhere of what they do.
Eventually, 25 years later, GURPS Traveller publishes Nobles and massively expands the functions of the imperial nobility by making them into some kind of appointed ambassadors to those "associated planets" while also "representing them" in the Sector Moot. That's also when Viscounts appeared. What does that mean? No one knows. Traveller 5 doesn't help. It just talks about spreading your fiefs around multiple planets if you have enough of them
Pysadi is a religious dictatorship ruled by the council of the Mother Church. But wait, there's an Imperial Knight on the world and its the fief of an Imperial Baron once GURPS Nobles and subsequent materials come out (no mention of these guys in adventures on Pysadi from before then). What is their relation to the Epopt, the supreme leader of Mother Church? No idea! Baron Pysadi is an Imperial official, not an local Churchman. Or is he both?
Eventually, 25 years later, GURPS Traveller publishes Nobles and massively expands the functions of the imperial nobility by making them into some kind of appointed ambassadors to those "associated planets" while also "representing them" in the Sector Moot. That's also when Viscounts appeared. What does that mean? No one knows. Traveller 5 doesn't help. It just talks about spreading your fiefs around multiple planets if you have enough of them
Pysadi is a religious dictatorship ruled by the council of the Mother Church. But wait, there's an Imperial Knight on the world and its the fief of an Imperial Baron once GURPS Nobles and subsequent materials come out (no mention of these guys in adventures on Pysadi from before then). What is their relation to the Epopt, the supreme leader of Mother Church? No idea! Baron Pysadi is an Imperial official, not an local Churchman. Or is he both?
G'Naakbusters
Cosmic Mongoose
The job, arguably, is to be a reminder of the planet's feudal agreement with the Imperium. A liaison or at least an observer, to help smooth over the interface between Imperial commerce/mainstream interstellar culture and the local traditions/government -- but most of all, perhaps, to simply represent (in an abstract as well as a practical political sense) the Emperor.
Whether they're a committed local serving both parties at once with equal pride, a judgemental overseer keeping tabs on the government, a valued advisor, or just... there... Well, that depends on the world and its relationship to the wider Imperium.
Again, it's feudal. The world has obligations and the Empire in turn has obligations to the world. Who oversees the details of this exchange, and who embodies the agreement with their presence and (hopefully) investment? The Noble.
Whether they're a committed local serving both parties at once with equal pride, a judgemental overseer keeping tabs on the government, a valued advisor, or just... there... Well, that depends on the world and its relationship to the wider Imperium.
Again, it's feudal. The world has obligations and the Empire in turn has obligations to the world. Who oversees the details of this exchange, and who embodies the agreement with their presence and (hopefully) investment? The Noble.
Sure. Now we just need to invent the terms of this unmentioned anywhere feudal agreement. The Articles of Enfeoffment are between the Emperor and the Noble. What is the responsibility of Pysadi and its government to the Emperor? What is the Emperor's responsibility to Pysadi? What part of this reminding is done by the Knight vs the Baron?
What powers and abilities does the Baron have if the Epopt is not doing whatever he is supposed to be doing? Even the Dukes can't tell Imperial military personnel what to do directly.
Let's shift to Aramis, because it is actually discussed in more places. The Marquisate of Aramis is an Imperial Title. And the Marquis of Aramis is also one of the ruling technocrats of Aramis, but not because he's the Marquis. He's just also one of the technocrats, in shipping in this case. However, for whatever reason, Aramis subsector does not have seem to have a subsector Duke. Aramis is the subsector capital, but its highest associated noble is the aforementioned Marquis. (What does a subsector capital do if there is no subsector government?) Instead, apparently, the Marquis of Aramis 'owes fealty' to the Count of Celepina. Who owes fealty to the Duke of Rhylanor. At least in the GURPS material. In Mongoose' version of Beyond the Claw, the Aramis Trace is associated with the Duke of Praetoria, via someone named "Count Urnas".
If this was an actual feudal government as the term is used on Earth, that would mean the Marquis of Aramis owes military service to the Count, who owes military service to the Duke. But that's not what feudal means in The Imperium. Because the Dukes and Counts don't actually control the military and if they have any personal military assets, they'd muster to the Sector Admiral (as part of the Colonial Navy) and Imperial Army. There's no evidence that the Duke of Rhylanor musters up his Counts and their fleets to go off doing Navy things.
Maybe they owe scutage? Why do they owe fealty at all? The Duke isn't the one granting them their title. Apparently they don't own their liege their votes in the Moot, because there's a whole thing on proxies. Unless that's what fealty means, you sold your proxy to that person. But that's a big leap.
I've worked out how it works in my campaign. But the official answer to the original question is "There's no answer and never been an attempt to make an answer." There's been a steady increase in the scope of the Imperial government and nobility over the decades, but no meaningful examples of what one of these enfeoffed nobles actually does vis a vis the planet their fief is associated with or how they actually relate to each other.
What powers and abilities does the Baron have if the Epopt is not doing whatever he is supposed to be doing? Even the Dukes can't tell Imperial military personnel what to do directly.
Let's shift to Aramis, because it is actually discussed in more places. The Marquisate of Aramis is an Imperial Title. And the Marquis of Aramis is also one of the ruling technocrats of Aramis, but not because he's the Marquis. He's just also one of the technocrats, in shipping in this case. However, for whatever reason, Aramis subsector does not have seem to have a subsector Duke. Aramis is the subsector capital, but its highest associated noble is the aforementioned Marquis. (What does a subsector capital do if there is no subsector government?) Instead, apparently, the Marquis of Aramis 'owes fealty' to the Count of Celepina. Who owes fealty to the Duke of Rhylanor. At least in the GURPS material. In Mongoose' version of Beyond the Claw, the Aramis Trace is associated with the Duke of Praetoria, via someone named "Count Urnas".
If this was an actual feudal government as the term is used on Earth, that would mean the Marquis of Aramis owes military service to the Count, who owes military service to the Duke. But that's not what feudal means in The Imperium. Because the Dukes and Counts don't actually control the military and if they have any personal military assets, they'd muster to the Sector Admiral (as part of the Colonial Navy) and Imperial Army. There's no evidence that the Duke of Rhylanor musters up his Counts and their fleets to go off doing Navy things.
Maybe they owe scutage? Why do they owe fealty at all? The Duke isn't the one granting them their title. Apparently they don't own their liege their votes in the Moot, because there's a whole thing on proxies. Unless that's what fealty means, you sold your proxy to that person. But that's a big leap.
I've worked out how it works in my campaign. But the official answer to the original question is "There's no answer and never been an attempt to make an answer." There's been a steady increase in the scope of the Imperial government and nobility over the decades, but no meaningful examples of what one of these enfeoffed nobles actually does vis a vis the planet their fief is associated with or how they actually relate to each other.
G'Naakbusters
Cosmic Mongoose
I imagine there's no practical reason so far as local effectiveness goes for the various tiers of Nobility. I imagine that's a feature geared toward stability of the wider Imperial system (that is, it's a feature of the Imperial effort to maintain its cohesive sense of structure on a vast scale, not a product of the Nobility's purpose on the microcosm of the local world. Self-perpetuation is any organisation's highest purpose). I'd assume it reinforces the functional reach of the Imperium by encouraging a sense of tiered authority and relative position, so everyone is orientated toward the overall structure and not their own immediate holdings. On the scale the Imperium operates on, it sort of all holds together because everyone believes it does and agrees to share the illusion.
I think it's also worth remembering that the Imperium is a cultural blend of Solomani and Vilani. To Vilani, not actually doing anything but serving to reinforce an existing structure for its own sake is a self-evident virtue...
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Nobility being a form of imperial citizenship designed to reward service to the broader polity and encourage people to look beyond their homeworld is sufficient enough. A "service nobility" along the lines of Petrine Russia and its table of ranks or latter day English peerages that don't do anything except say "yay, good job and you are now Lord Bob and can go to the Moot". is more than enough. Trying to find them a purpose at the planetary level is, in fact, the problem. You don't want them to be parochial and having local loyalties.
The Empire has to delegate authority because of communications lag. But it explicitly doesn't govern planets. And, unlike actual feudalism, its Lords are not local military commanders. The Emperor doesn't need his vassals to have vassals to improve governance or military capacity. You are a baron because the cool thing you did wasn't as cool as the thing that Marquis did.
The idea that any noble besides the Dukes and up are actually jobs rather than rewards and incentives to further service is the root of the problem. A problem that, as far as I can tell, originated with GURPS TRAVELLER Nobles and has spread from there.
The Empire has to delegate authority because of communications lag. But it explicitly doesn't govern planets. And, unlike actual feudalism, its Lords are not local military commanders. The Emperor doesn't need his vassals to have vassals to improve governance or military capacity. You are a baron because the cool thing you did wasn't as cool as the thing that Marquis did.
The idea that any noble besides the Dukes and up are actually jobs rather than rewards and incentives to further service is the root of the problem. A problem that, as far as I can tell, originated with GURPS TRAVELLER Nobles and has spread from there.
AnotherDilbert
Emperor Mongoose
Generally Blue.
The Imperial constitution:
https://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Warrant_of_Restoration
The nobles as a whole are not executives, but board members or parliamentarians. They talk, they influence the making of laws, they don't decide.
The subsector Duke has no right to tell local government anything much about local matters.
The planetary Count by default is something like a US senator, has no executive role in his home state.
Exceptions:
Imperial citizens have some few rights guaranteed by the Imperium, such as the right to not be enslaved.
Starports are Imperial territory, local laws and authority isn't applicable. Only Imperial laws and executive authority applies. Ruled not by nobles as a fiefdom, but by Imperial bureaucracy.
https://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Starport_Authority
See also the Imperial Rules of War for reasons for the Imperium to meddle in local matters.
https://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Imperial_Rules_of_War
Practical overview, perhaps somewhat interpretative:
https://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Third_Imperium#Government_.26_Politics_.28Leadership.29
AnotherDilbert
Emperor Mongoose
Opinion:
The Imperium consists of member "worlds", largely self-ruling provinces (state in US dialect). Such a province can be part of a planet (balkanised), one planet, one star system, or several planets/star systems (captive government).
I generally consider the entire local star system to be such a state by default, not just the main world. I.e. moons and outposts are under local government, not Imperial members outright. Just as each Hawaiian island isn't a US state, but the entire archipelago is. It reduces Imperial clutter enormously...
At an average of about 39 "worlds" per subsector, "world" presumably refers to the entire local star system, not every moon or outpost.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
It's sort of convoluted, and we'd view more through our expectations of medieval nobility and experience.
The Imperial Nobility, beyond the Core, are more likely local influencers who have their own separate power base, that are believed to be acquiescence to Imperial control; having them ennobled gives them certain privileges, but also legally obliges them to assist the Imperium.
If you want to simplify the hierarchy, baronets are the local justice of the peace, baron would be in charge of a large enough planet or system, and a count of an important system or cluster.
In theory, marquis would be Marcher counts with special powers to control their regions.
Viscounts would be assistants to counts, usually the heir to one.
However, these things tend to mutate.
The Imperial Nobility, beyond the Core, are more likely local influencers who have their own separate power base, that are believed to be acquiescence to Imperial control; having them ennobled gives them certain privileges, but also legally obliges them to assist the Imperium.
If you want to simplify the hierarchy, baronets are the local justice of the peace, baron would be in charge of a large enough planet or system, and a count of an important system or cluster.
In theory, marquis would be Marcher counts with special powers to control their regions.
Viscounts would be assistants to counts, usually the heir to one.
However, these things tend to mutate.
alex_greene
Guest
Here's a table from The Third Imperium showing which rank can own what.
AnotherDilbert
Emperor Mongoose
A fiefdom is not something you own, it's something you manage for the Emperor. You may freely dispose of the income, presumed to be in the Emperor's interest as you are presumed to be a responsible person.
A western medieval feudal lord was theoretically something like a regional manager of a company today, hereditarily appointed for life (or until you annoyed your betters).
alex_greene
Guest
Page 49 of The Third Imperium describes what nobles actually do, in a section titled "Noblesse Oblige."
Most of the time, they do absolutely nothing.
Most of the time, they do absolutely nothing.
G'Naakbusters
Cosmic Mongoose
The Vilani imperative:
"Time for your performance review. You do nothing, change nothing, and exist only to keep things as they are so the structure we built still works predictably. Excellent, have a (scheduled, official) gold star".
IMTU, the Imperium doesn't actually own enough property on all these worlds to be handing out fiefs like that. The Emperor gives out money fiefs, essentially. The "property" in the fief is generally stock in Imperial megacorporations and the like. Nobles will, of course, tend to buy property and whatnot, but the city of Leedor on Aramis (for example) is not actually in the Emperor's gift. The Marquis of Aramis controls Leedor because he is part of the ruling class of the planet separately from his status as Marquis.
That is not, of course, what the rules say. But it works better for me.
That is not, of course, what the rules say. But it works better for me.
