Traveller Manufacturing Rules

[Terry Mixon]

Right now, the only clarity that We have on the issue is that TL18 and lower fabricators cannot make armor above Crystaliron.

TL-17 is molecular level

TL-19 is quantum level. TL-19+ probably could do superdense armor since it can build from the subatomic level.

That could all be. Clarification would be good.

 

[swordtart]

The Enhanced is TL13. My mistake. He was clear that the advanced and higher was nano driven, so I’d image they can do armor up to their tech level.

Still, more clarity would be good.

From the Robot Handbook - Nanobot constructors at TL13 can only do basic contruction equivalent to a basic fabricator (which is TL8). The cannot produce even simple electronics until TL15. This indicates that the presence of Nano does not confer enhanced ability to produce materials, indeed they are running several TLs behind fabricators.

CSC indicates that TL17 is the point that Fabricators can produce anything at their TL. Presumably by this time Fabricators are the default manufacturing mechanism. So anything you can purchase is made by fabs. Superdense alloys require heavy industrial processes, though it isn't clear what constitutes heavy industry in a post scarcity tech level. Tame black holes maybe?

 

[MasterGwydion]

From the Robot Handbook - Nanobot constructors at TL13 can only do basic contruction equivalent to a basic fabricator (which is TL8). The cannot produce even simple electronics until TL15. This indicates that the presence of Nano does not confer enhanced ability to produce materials, indeed they are running several TLs behind fabricators.

CSC indicates that TL17 is the point that Fabricators can produce anything at their TL. Presumably by this time Fabricators are the default manufacturing mechanism. So anything you can purchase is made by fabs. Superdense alloys require heavy industrial processes, though it isn't clear what constitutes heavy industry in a post scarcity tech level. Tame black holes maybe?

I would guess that Superdense is made in Manufacturing Plants, probably Advanced ones.

 

[Terry Mixon]

Right now, the only clarity that We have on the issue is that TL18 and lower fabricators cannot make armor above Crystaliron.

TL-17 is molecular level

TL-19 is quantum level. TL-19+ probably could do superdense armor since it can build from the subatomic level.

Does it actually state that breakdown somewhere?

 

[Terry Mixon]

I would guess that Superdense is made in Manufacturing Plants, probably Advanced ones.

Then advanced fabricators should be able to make them.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Does it actually state that breakdown somewhere?

RH page 105

 

[Terry Mixon]

RH page 105

Thanks.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Then advanced fabricators should be able to make them.

Manufacturing Plants can have stuff like gravitic technology to compress the material into superdense. Fabricators would not.

 

[Terry Mixon]

Manufacturing Plants can have stuff like gravitic technology to compress the material into superdense. Fabricators would not.

True but they can build the items with the linkages and manufacturing done as if it had always been there. At least the Superior ones should be able to, anyway.

 

[swordtart]

True but they can build the items with the linkages and manufacturing done as if it had always been there. At least the Superior ones should be able to, anyway.

There is an explicit limitation of Fabricators that they cannot produce superdense material at any tech level (for some reason). I also don't think a manufacturing plant is heavy industry. It takes in raw materiels and constructs consumer goods and products. I think smelting is heavy industry as it turns natural resources into raw materials. Heavy industry is tradionally associated with high power demands.

I wouldn't consider it as simple as extracting iron from ore so it would be the Uncommon Raw Material variant. The process is at least analogous and smelters fits well with alloy rpoduction (though the description of Uncommon Raw Materials does not specify superdense alloys it does talk about titanium which is one of the more difficult terrestrial materials to produce.

 

[Terry Mixon]

There is an explicit limitation of Fabricators that they cannot produce superdense material at any tech level (for some reason). I also don't think a manufacturing plant is heavy industry. It takes in raw materiels and constructs consumer goods and products. I think smelting is heavy industry as it turns natural resources into raw materials. Heavy industry is tradionally associated with high power demands.

I wouldn't consider it as simple as extracting iron from ore so it would be the Uncommon Raw Material variant. The process is at least analogous and smelters fits well with alloy rpoduction (though the description of Uncommon Raw Materials does not specify superdense alloys it does talk about titanium which is one of the more difficult terrestrial materials to produce.

It says fabricators up to advanced can’t do it. If it says “any tech level” somewhere, I’d like a pointer to it. Until then, I’m running that it is impossible at TL18-.

Edit: a check of the Central Supply Catalog has superdense materials excluded for enhanced and advanced fabricators specifically. It states that superdense “remains beyond the capabilities of a fabricator” to handle at TL17 Advanced, but does not categorically exclude it at higher tech levels such as Superior at TL19.

 

[MasterGwydion]

It says fabricators up to advanced can’t do it. If it says “any tech level” somewhere, I’d like a pointer to it. Until then, I’m running that it is impossible at TL18-.

Edit: a check of the Central Supply Catalog has superdense materials excluded for enhanced and advanced fabricators specifically. It is clear that superdense “remain beyond the capabilities of a fabricator” to handle at TL17 Advanced, but does not categorically exclude it at higher tech levels. Such as Superior at TL19.

This is correct as far as I know.

 

[swordtart]

This is correct as far as I know

It says fabricators up to advanced can’t do it. If it says “any tech level” somewhere, I’d like a pointer to it. Until then, I’m running that it is impossible at TL18-.

Edit: a check of the Central Supply Catalog has superdense materials excluded for enhanced and advanced fabricators specifically. It states that superdense “remains beyond the capabilities of a fabricator” to handle at TL17 Advanced, but does not categorically exclude it at higher tech levels such as Superior at TL19.

The final sentence of the TL13 paragraph states "It can lay down layers of crystaliron but has no ability to produce superdense alloys – which require a heavy industrial process at all Tech Levels."

The final sentence at the end of the TL17 paragraph reiterates this "superdense materials remain beyond the capabilities of a fabricator" - not that they are beyond the capability of advanced fabricators.

My original reading was this was an absolute limitation of fabricators in general, however as it appears embedded twice within two discrete paragraphs discussing two technology levels of fabricators rather than in a paragraph covering all fabricators you could interpret it as just applying to Enhanced and Advanced fabricators of all TLs (since there is no reason you can't make an Enhanced Fabricator at TL17 that can make any TL15 product as long as it remains limited by the other limitations of an enhanced fabricator) and that at the tier beyond Advanced Superdense might become available.

That would mean however that you would need to invent a new Superior tier of fabricator. The next tier following the pattern for the preceeding TL progression of 8, 10(8+2), 13(10+3), 17(13+4) would be 17+5 or TL22. Of course there is no reason why this pattern need continue but if not then you are extrapolating outside the framework that exists and are firmly in DM Fiat territory.

I would be more comfortable having another tier for smelters.

 

[swordtart]

Right now, the only clarity that We have on the issue is that TL18 and lower fabricators cannot make armor above Crystaliron.

TL-17 is molecular level

TL-19 is quantum level. TL-19+ probably could do superdense armor since it can build from the subatomic level.

Where did you get this, I remember seeing an advanced TL table somewhere, but I can't find it now. Medikits can interpret at the Quantum level at TL14 and Active Camouflage can use quantum effects at TL15.

If generic Quantum manipulation is available at TL19 then Fabricators might run a TL or two behind that. I was going to say 2 TLs, but then Advanced fabricators don't seem to suffer from that limitation, so maybe not.

Does Superdense have a specific technical meaning in this version of Traveller. I am not sure superdense bonding is not at an atomic level (since it is basically atoms bound more tightly together by enhanced induced electronic bonding) - by the definition of SD in MT at least.

If it is an overlay of multiple quantum states then I guess it moves into that terrain, but that all seems a bit too specific for a technology that has existed in game since the get go and was always previously been nice and vague. The trouble with tying things down too much is that you have to tie it down properly or your house of cards can fall down with the slightest breeze.

 

[Terry Mixon]

Where did you get this, I remember seeing an advanced TL table somewhere, but I can't find it now. Medikits can interpret at the Quantum level at TL14 and Active Camouflage can use quantum effects at TL15.

If generic Quantum manipulation is available at TL19 then Fabricators might run a TL or two behind that. I was going to say 2 TLs, but then Advanced fabricators don't seem to suffer from that limitation, so maybe not.

Does Superdense have a specific technical meaning in this version of Traveller. I am not sure superdense bonding is not at an atomic level (since it is basically atoms bound more tightly together by enhanced induced electronic bonding) - by the definition of SD in MT at least.

If it is an overlay of multiple quantum states then I guess it moves into that terrain, but that all seems a bit too specific for a technology that has existed in game since the get go and was always previously been nice and vague. The trouble with tying things down too much is that you have to tie it down properly or your house of cards can fall down with the slightest breeze.

The Superior fabricator is mentioned on a chart in the Robot Handbook on page 105.

 

[Terry Mixon]

The final sentence of the TL13 paragraph states "It can lay down layers of crystaliron but has no ability to produce superdense alloys – which require a heavy industrial process at all Tech Levels."

The final sentence at the end of the TL17 paragraph reiterates this "superdense materials remain beyond the capabilities of a fabricator" - not that they are beyond the capability of advanced fabricators.

My original reading was this was an absolute limitation of fabricators in general, however as it appears embedded twice within two discrete paragraphs discussing two technology levels of fabricators rather than in a paragraph covering all fabricators you could interpret it as just applying to Enhanced and Advanced fabricators of all TLs (since there is no reason you can't make an Enhanced Fabricator at TL17 that can make any TL15 product as long as it remains limited by the other limitations of an enhanced fabricator) and that at the tier beyond Advanced Superdense might become available.

That would mean however that you would need to invent a new Superior tier of fabricator. The next tier following the pattern for the preceeding TL progression of 8, 10(8+2), 13(10+3), 17(13+4) would be 17+5 or TL22. Of course there is no reason why this pattern need continue but if not then you are extrapolating outside the framework that exists and are firmly in DM Fiat territory.

I would be more comfortable having another tier for smelters.

I would like to see an additional tier of both mineral refinery and smelter. Also, there is a Superior grade fabricator at TL19. It just isn’t well documented. I just posted the table with it in another reply.

 

[MasterGwydion]

If it is an overlay of multiple quantum states then I guess it moves into that terrain, but that all seems a bit too specific for a technology that has existed in game since the get go and was always previously been nice and vague. The trouble with tying things down too much is that you have to tie it down properly or your house of cards can fall down with the slightest breeze.

TL-17 fabricators can reproduce anything at the molecular level, as you stated superdense being atomic level, which is still a smaller level than the limit on TL-17 fabricators being the molecular level. So, to do atomic level fabrication, you'd need the TL-19 fabricator.

 

[swordtart]

TL-17 fabricators can reproduce anything at the molecular level, as you stated superdense being atomic level, which is still a smaller level than the limit on TL-17 fabricators being the molecular level. So, to do atomic level fabrication, you'd need the TL-19 fabricator.

When I say atomic, I mean joining atoms (rather than laying down molecules of material onto each other). A TL8 Fabricator is laying down polymer chains that are molecules of polymers. They are bonding at a molecular level. A TL13 fabricator can print living tissue,. Assuming we start with proteins these join at a molecular level to form protein chains. A molecule is just sets of atoms that have been joined.

The atomic level to me mean means manipulating the constituent parts of atoms which are subatomic particles. Of course if I knew how to make bonded superdense materials I would be selling it the military not talking about it here.

To be fair, I could read it the other way too though. The language is not really precise enough and isn't likley to be when talking about pseudo science.

I am not sure why I am even arguing this point since I don't think it is the job of fabricators to be making new raw materials.

The Superior fabricator is mentioned on a chart in the Robot Handbook on page 105.

Thank you, I knew I had seen it somewhere, shame this stuff is spread around in random supplements. We need a grand index As you say, this is the first we have seen of a Superior fabricator and the trouble with introducing it in the Robot Book is that its properties are entirely about Robots

 

[Terry Mixon]

Thank you, I knew I had seen it somewhere, shame this stuff is spread around in random supplements. We need a grand index As you say, this is the first we have seen of a Superior fabricator and the trouble with introducing it in the Robot Book is that its properties are entirely about Robots

I believe it will see some more light of day in the Vehicle Handbook 2025 Update. @Geir said elsewhere in another public thread that there would be more fabricator information there. Perhaps it will help inform what a Superior fabricator is and, if we are very lucky, say if it can do superdense armor.