Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
So, as common is 1/4 the price of uncommon, a 4:1 ratio by volume.
That works. What about for more advanced manufacturing? Seems basic, advanced, and specialist would have different ratios. Organic too.
Traveller Manufacturing Rules
- Thread starter MasterGwydion
- Start date
That works. What about for more advanced manufacturing? Seems basic, advanced, and specialist would have different ratios. Organic too.
Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
Maybe @Geir could shed some light on what inputs and amounts are required for manufacturing things with the four types of manufacturies. It has to have been considered at some point.
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
I keep the ratios the same, but the amounts increase due to advanced goods being more expensive than basic goods. For specialist goods, I use the same 50/50 split, but I use basic and advanced goods instead of common and uncommon materials.
Edit: I just use the average price for all of the materials and goods from the Trade Section of the CRB, but the system would still work if you broke it down using Merchant Prince's expanded divisions of all of the goods on the Trade Goods list from the CRB. So you could get more granular than I usually get using the same system.
True, it is sometimes hard to see why things cost so much in a "fabricators can make anyhting" based society. Time and people costs is no longer the deciding factor. Robots are so expensive the trade price of a DTon of Robots is too low. Unfortuntely if you inflate the cost of a DTon of Robots then you enhance the infinite money machine of trade. You can just about rationalise it by assuming the majority of Robots being shipped by the ton are Primitive brain, Basic brain and Drones (since most of the cost is the brain). This kind of works since you need a higher TL fabricator to make the more complex brains. The more expensive Robots are shipped individually as a custom order (and never enter the speculative trade market).
As to why the raw materials cost so much, you could explain that by noting that Robots are built up of component modules. Those modules may be bought in and have already been through a manufacturing process. The components to build those modules have also been through a manufacturing process that bought in the discrete components (chips, wire, unpopulated circuit boards etc.) that have also been through a manufacturing process. If each of these is doubling the price then by the time you are at the manufacturing step where you are feeding in lengths of wire and silicon wafer you might be at the level where the DTon input starts to approach a sensible level.
We could then assume the Raw Materials trade goods were the lowest level (sheet or formed metal, plastic granules etc. (which would have been true before fabricators) and feed stock for fabricators is different and itself a product of a manufactruing process (in much the way printer filament is now).
I hit the same wall when using construction robots to build a Starport on Judice. It wasn't reasonable to just throw money at it as it is such a challenging environment so I had to come up with a mechanism of translating Raw Materials that had to be shipped in as an input to the construction process (and reduce costs so that it was a realistic proposition to make it economically viable).
None of it stands up to too much scrutiny.
So 80:20
Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
Yep. The two of you phrase it differently, but use the same ratios.So 80:20
Me, I’m still not sure the raw materials should be in value parity. To me, it seems like it depends on what you’re making. Basic items should use more commons materials. Advanced should need an increase in uncommon materials. Specialty items like robots might be even more so.
I hadn’t really given it net thought. Now I suppose I will.
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MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
So, to clarify... Once I do the original translation from Dtons of output into Credits of output, I ignore that the book has the output in tons and treat it as if it stated the output in Credits.
Basic Manufacturing Plant = 1 ton of goods per 8 hour shift or roughly 16,700Cr worth of product per 8 hour shift and requiring half of that in material costs. 4,375Cr of Common Raw Materials = 0.875 dtons / 4,375Cr of Uncommon Raw Materials = 0.21875 dtons
Advanced Manufacturing Plant = 1 ton of goods per 8 hour shift or roughly 121,000Cr worth of product per 8 hour shift and requiring half of that in material costs. 30,250Cr of Common Raw Materials = 6.05 dtons / 30,250Cr of Uncommon Raw Materials = 1.5125 dtons
Specialist Manufacturing Plant = 1 ton of goods per 8 hour shift or roughly 200,000Cr worth of product per 8 hour shift and requiring half of that in material costs. 50,000Cr of Basic Goods = 2.99 dtons / 50,000Cr of Advanced Goods = 0.413 dtons
I agree with you in principle that the input comonents should somehow reflect the output, but I found it increasingly difficult to make the thing stack up. You could say anything advanced would need uncommon materials, but it is only flavour you are adding on top. As long as the cost aligns you are golden.
It is also interesting that the value of precious metals has tanked due to their commonality (if it is 5% of any random asteroid). At KCr50 for 14 cubic metres you could make C3P0 (Protocol Droid KCr700) out of solid platinum and you would still be hard pressed to justify the raw material input cost. Lord knows what you would need to make R2D2 (Astro-Mech MCR1) out of
Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
I’ll have to seriously think about using goods for specialist goods. I like how you do it and will likely move to that.
So, if you take it far enough, would making a ship count as Advanced or Specialist? I’m leaning toward Advanced.
Do you mean manufacturing a ship?
I would say that a manufacturing plant can't do that. You could manufacture the components though and have them assembled in a starport or construction deck. Different components would be different complexities - hull plates would be basic, but the power plant would be advanced drives probably specialised.
Also a manufacturing plant is really for producing large quantities of the same thing. If you keep changing the product or only use it for a single iteration then I would argue you wouldn't get economies of scale necessary for the number to still be viable.
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Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
I’m sort of talking that, but using fabricators. Big ones.
J. L. Brown
Emperor Mongoose
The problem with that is CSC update 2023, p8. TL 13+ Fabrication Chambers can produce:
(all of TL minus two); so a ships computer is impossible. Any ships robot brain is fine, though -- or (what I do) just ignore the silliness & house-rule around it.
Whilst a manufacturing plant probably uses fabricators (though some low tech places may still use older machinery), using a fabricator doesn't necessarily make it a manufacturing plant in the sense of High Guard.
External fabricators make more sense for a large objects (if only becuase of the slight price reduction).
For a normal Fabricator it takes 14,000 chamber litres capacity for each DTon for TL13 that comes to MCr700 per DTon. A fabricator capable of building a 200-ton Hull is going to cost you MCr140,000. Even if you save half the cost by using raw materials it is going to take a lot of ships to pay back that capital investment. You would need to produce over 4500 Far Traders to break even. That assumes no power cost, no labour cost and no interest payment on the capital and that every component is TL11 or lower.
I don't see any reason it couldn't be done technically, but I doubt it would be economically viable.
It would make a heck of a story arc though
J. L. Brown
Emperor Mongoose
An 'external' fabricator is constrained to products which are one TL lower than products which come out of 'internal' fabricators of the same type & TL. A TL-13 External Fabricator (EF) is going to produce TL-10 and lower ships. Of course, an External Fabricator could build any sized ship; so it does not need to be able to produce a full dTon in one pass.
A 1000 'chamber liter' EF could produce a dTon every 28 hours, and cost 375 MCr.
Geir
Emperor Mongoose
I go into it more in the manufacturing chapter in the back of the VHB covering really big fabricators, along with just plain 'machinery' which doesn't have a TL limit, it's just for making things cheaper and at arbitrary TL (well, yes, if you pay (early) prototype prices for a machine you can make (early) prototype stuff at (early) prototype costs and size).
So back to the build it in a barn... sure, as long as you turn your barn into a machine shop. Might take a while, though, but hopefully the rules are more useful and flexible than the Drinaxian Companion.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
You can probably repurpose a mini reactor to power a smallcraft.
Or, a double sized chemical one.
It still likely to come down to propulsion.
Or, a double sized chemical one.
It still likely to come down to propulsion.
Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
It’s not economically feasible. It’s part of my Ancients campaign.Whilst a manufacturing plant probably uses fabricators (though some low tech places may still use older machinery), using a fabricator doesn't necessarily make it a manufacturing plant in the sense of High Guard.
External fabricators make more sense for a large objects (if only becuase of the slight price reduction).
For a normal Fabricator it takes 14,000 chamber litres capacity for each DTon for TL13 that comes to MCr700 per DTon. A fabricator capable of building a 200-ton Hull is going to cost you MCr140,000. Even if you save half the cost by using raw materials it is going to take a lot of ships to pay back that capital investment. You would need to produce over 4500 Far Traders to break even. That assumes no power cost, no labour cost and no interest payment on the capital and that every component is TL11 or lower.
I don't see any reason it couldn't be done technically, but I doubt it would be economically viable.
It would make a heck of a story arc though
Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
It’s a TL17 version. A scientist from Vincennes has a prototype.
Geir
Emperor Mongoose
Subject of a great industrial espionage adventure, especially if the prototype starts malfunctioning...
Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
Oh, that will be coming. Along with all the Ancients plots.
