Ways to fight stealth

[madpax]

As usual, one of my biggest problem is to find some ways to reduce the minbari stealth.
Aside using area weapons, we now have a reduction in stealth if firing at 8" or less (if ever we can reach that distance), having a ship firing at the target (if you succeed in one such fire), and the scout capability.
Fighters surviving anti-fighters defence and contacting the target have no problem.
Are there other ways to reduce the stealth?
If a ship if firing area weapons, thus hitting stealthy ships, do you reduce the stealth for the next weapons of that ship?
Of other ships?
Are fighters considered as ships in that instance?
Is that reduction cumulative?

Marc

 

[Lord David the Denied]

All I know is all stealth reductions are cumulative. I believe Shadows and Vorlons can actually get a target's stealth down to 1+ under the right conditions...

 

[Burger]

You can get bonuses for:

- Close range: +1 for within 8"
- Being Vorlon or Shadow: +1
- Already hitting with another ship: +1
- A scout can reduce a target's stealth with a CQ check of 8: +1

These are all cumulative with each other, but not cumulative with themselves (ie. if a scout reduces stealth and you are within 8", you get +2. But if 2 scouts both reduce stealth on the same target, you still only get +1).

As far as already hitting with another ship goes, yes e-mines and fighters do count. Subsequent weapons of the same ship don't.

Only Shadows can all of them at once, and get a Stealth 5+ ship down to 1+ (automatic pass).

 

[Locutus9956]

Burgers answer covers the original question pretty conclusively I'd say so Ill ask a couple of others instead of answering

1. Was it ever (officially) clarified what counted as 'a sucessful attack' for stealth reduction by the way? Was it just 'break stealth and fire a weapon thats in range' or was it that you acutally have to HIT the target?

2. If a slow loading weapon fires less than its full attack dice does the whole system have to wait a turn before firing again or do you track the 'slowloadingness' of each attack dice sperately? I ask this as an idea occured to me the other day of basically splitting a Ballistic torpedo volley onto as many different minbari ships as possible. You roll stealth for all of em and if you fail the torpedo doesnt fire so no real loss there but it gives you a chance to lower stealth on several ships (and whichever ones stealth drops gets pasted by the rest of the fleet). Now this would be a very effective tactic if you could basically retry the torpedoes that fail stealth for their targete ship next turn etc but if you basically lose the whole system next turn if ANY pass stealth and fire at one ship then it would be a bit wasteful...

 

[Silvereye]

Are fighters considered as ships in that instance?

Yes, this is especially handy if they can get into base contact with their target (and then survive the (Advanced) Anti-fighter fire) as thy ignore a targets Stealth when they are that close. Of course they still then need to hit the target....

 

[Greg Smith]

I have found fighters effective, although you have something of a dilema with 2" range fighters.

Example:
Thunderbolts stand off at 4", outside of AF range, so they must roll to beat stealth. However a handful of T/Bolts will likely get one past stealth, so reducing stealth.

Starfuries must get within AF range, but if one gets through, you've beaten the stealth automatically and so reduced the stealth. Generally do this with more Starfuries than the target has AF dice, and only do it when you absolutely have to reduce stealth on that particular target, ie you have a lot of guns lined up on it.

----

If a ship if firing area weapons, thus hitting stealthy ships, do you reduce the stealth for the next weapons of that ship?

No, stealth is rolled before firing. You don't fire your e-mine and then roll for stealth.

 

[Silvereye]

2. If a slow loading weapon fires less than its full attack dice does the whole system have to wait a turn before firing again or do you track the 'slowloadingness' of each attack dice sperately? I ask this as an idea occured to me the other day of basically splitting a Ballistic torpedo volley onto as many different minbari ships as possible. You roll stealth for all of em and if you fail the torpedo doesnt fire so no real loss there but it gives you a chance to lower stealth on several ships (and whichever ones stealth drops gets pasted by the rest of the fleet). Now this would be a very effective tactic if you could basically retry the torpedoes that fail stealth for their targete ship next turn etc but if you basically lose the whole system next turn if ANY pass stealth and fire at one ship then it would be a bit wasteful...

Good question! I'd probably post this to the Rulesmasters.

 

[Burger]

1. Was it ever (officially) clarified what counted as 'a sucessful attack' for stealth reduction by the way? Was it just 'break stealth and fire a weapon thats in range' or was it that you acutally have to HIT the target?

2. If a slow loading weapon fires less than its full attack dice does the whole system have to wait a turn before firing again or do you track the 'slowloadingness' of each attack dice sperately? I ask this as an idea occured to me the other day of basically splitting a Ballistic torpedo volley onto as many different minbari ships as possible. You roll stealth for all of em and if you fail the torpedo doesnt fire so no real loss there but it gives you a chance to lower stealth on several ships (and whichever ones stealth drops gets pasted by the rest of the fleet). Now this would be a very effective tactic if you could basically retry the torpedoes that fail stealth for their targete ship next turn etc but if you basically lose the whole system next turn if ANY pass stealth and fire at one ship then it would be a bit wasteful...

1. Yes, and you replied to the thread http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=30135

2. Keep trimming that beard! If you tried that against me I'd slap you :lol:

 

[Burger]

Are fighters considered as ships in that instance?

Yes, this is especially handy if they can get into base contact with their target (and then survive the (Advanced) Anti-fighter fire) as thy ignore a targets Stealth when they are that close. Of course they still then need to hit the target....

No, they only need to roll attack dice against it. See the link above.

 

[Greg Smith]

1. Was it ever (officially) clarified what counted as 'a sucessful attack' for stealth reduction by the way? Was it just 'break stealth and fire a weapon thats in range' or was it that you acutally have to HIT the target?

You just have to beat the stealth. If your weapons miss, you've still seen the ship and so can transmit firing data to the rest of the fleet.

2. If a slow loading weapon fires less than its full attack dice does the whole system have to wait a turn before firing again or do you track the 'slowloadingness' of each attack dice sperately?

This has not been answered conclusively. The rules are conflicting: the stealth rule says the weapon has not fired if it fails a stealth roll, while the slow loading rule says if the weapon fires it cannot fire again.

I play that you calculate the slowloadingingness (nice word ) separately. Which does make pinging Minbari ships with missiles quite an effective tactic.

 

[Locutus9956]

1) Yeah I know about that one was just checking it hadnt been reversed since then since this thread seems to suggest that you need to HIT. And Matt has been known to rule incorrectly at times

2) Erm how is any 'beardier' trying to fish for stealth locks with slow loading weapons than non slow loading ones? Was just curious as to how it would effect slow loading since previously it wasnt an issue (you fired and missed in any case (which frankly despite some players whinging about it made sense to me, if you fail stealth you dont decide you cant see the target and not fire, you MISS). Frankly if anyone tried that against my Minbari Id be more than happy with it as stealth whilst improved is still VERY powerful and anything you can do to counter it is fair game in my book!

 

[Burger]

I play that you calculate the slowloadingingness (nice word ) separately.

It is a nice word but I'd say that is not supported by the rules. The Slow-loading rules say that if a SL weapon fires, it can't be fired until next turn. Therefore even if only 1 AD fires, it counts as having fired.

 

[Greg Smith]

But the stealth rule says slow-loading weapons will count as not having fired if they fail a stealth roll.

 

[katadder]

i'm with burger on this one. if you fire it you fire it and so it has to reload.

 

[Locutus9956]

I play that you calculate the slowloadingingness (nice word ) separately.

It is a nice word but I'd say that is not supported by the rules. The Slow-loading rules say that if a SL weapon fires, it can't be fired until next turn. Therefore even if only 1 AD fires, it counts as having fired.

Yeah thats what I thought, and how weve been playing it up to now, just wasnt 100% sure. Frankly the main argument I can see for this is it would be a royal pain in the ass tracking how many actual attack dice are reloading, especially on a fleet with lots of slow loading weapons like torpedoes, missiles, grav beams etc

 

[H]

i'm with burger on this one. if you fire it you fire it and so it has to reload.

You agree with Burger? I must have had too much to drink last night!

 

[Locutus9956]

rulesmastered a clearer question on this

EDIT: and so it seems has burger

 

[Burger]

i'm with burger on this one. if you fire it you fire it and so it has to reload.

You agree with Burger? I must have had too much to drink last night!

It has been known to happen, on occasion
I've put it on rulesmasters though it does seem fairly clear to me. The default state of the weapon is to count as "not fired" unless it does break stealth, in which case the state flips to fired. It can't flip back to "not fired" again.

 

[Greg Smith]

I've put it on rulesmasters though it does seem fairly clear to me. The default state of the weapon is to count as "not fired" unless it does break stealth, in which case the state flips to fired. It can't flip back to "not fired" again.

I would add a little fluff in there though. A Sagi has multiple missile launchers. If one launcher fires, and must take the time to reload, why should the other one not fire later, since it is already loaded?

As Locutus says, it may be a little more tracking than is neccesary in ACTA, but I stand by my interpretation (until we get a response in the rulesmasters).

 

[Burger]

I've put it on rulesmasters though it does seem fairly clear to me. The default state of the weapon is to count as "not fired" unless it does break stealth, in which case the state flips to fired. It can't flip back to "not fired" again.

I would add a little fluff in there though. A Sagi has multiple missile launchers. If one launcher fires, and must take the time to reload, why should the other one not fire later, since it is already loaded?

But ACTA rules don't distinguish between several small weapons, or one large one. For example an Avioki's beam, surely fluffwise that would still count as fired of you only passed one stealth check?