Refined is only really necessary for Jump travel. In most systems, chances are there is a lot more in-system traffic. Probably a lot of reaction drives used in lower tech areas as well.
Merchant Ship Design (and some economic ramblings)
- Thread starter Vormaerin
- Start date
Another design option that would likely be used extensively between high-port only runs, would be the external cargo mount. With something like this:
You are completely dependent on dockside interface craft, unless you carry something on the docking clamps, but at less than the cost of a basic Type A, you can haul nearly 4 times the cargo.
Of the various kinds of reaction drives, I think only Heplar drives in the rules actually use Traveller fuel. The reaction mass for regular rocket drives is different. Basically being Hydrogen + Oxygen = explosion. And Orion drives are different from either.
But I suppose that is true. There's no mechanical effect for using unrefined fuel in your power plant. Power plant fuel is such a tiny amount it's hardly significant, but it you would save a little bit by using unrefined on M-drive ships.
ProfGrizzlyJon
Cosmic Mongoose
Don’t forget the Point Defense Turrets and Anti-fighter missiles from Trailing Frontiers. These, along with some Virtual Crew-members (or a plug-in computer cluster w/Agent and Expert Gunner and Fire Control) could be a cost-effective and efficient defensive only weapon system.
After our other thread, I watched a youtube video about private security guards anti-piracy tactics. Very inspiring for the Traveller world
Unfortunately the way the rules work for point defense turrets makes them kind of janky. Leastwise, when they came out I asked if I was misunderstanding them and everyone else seemed to either not know how they worked or thought they were pretty bad. But I'd love for them to be an actual option.
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
In CT using unrefined fuel in the power plant could cause pp and or m-drive failure.
Have these rules disappeared from MgT?
Another thing I have often stated - the fuel purification plant introduced in HG made the whole refined/unrefined fuel availability by starport rather silly.
My PCs became very rich selling refined fuel that they refined themselves. They then built fuel purification plants at all the class C and lower starports they frequented. This made them lots of money too.
I much preferred the civilian vs military drive - but there should have been a discount for the civilian or a surcharge for the military rugged drive.
Have these rules disappeared from MgT?
Another thing I have often stated - the fuel purification plant introduced in HG made the whole refined/unrefined fuel availability by starport rather silly.
My PCs became very rich selling refined fuel that they refined themselves. They then built fuel purification plants at all the class C and lower starports they frequented. This made them lots of money too.
I much preferred the civilian vs military drive - but there should have been a discount for the civilian or a surcharge for the military rugged drive.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Build a jump drive where raw hydrogen doesn't degrade the jump transition.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
We have three slots for customization.
And if l recall correctly, the original hundred tonne Scoutship was supposedly immune to the effects of raw hydrogen.
And if l recall correctly, the original hundred tonne Scoutship was supposedly immune to the effects of raw hydrogen.
I think they disappeared, yeah. Though I missed that the check for re-enlistment was merged with the advancement roll and not just gone, so it could be buried somewhere.
Never really thought about it before, but a lot of what I ignore IMTU was added to the game by High Guard.
I think the fact that my younger self liked the Book 4/5/6/7 advanced character creation caused me to not associate those books with the problems they introduced.For those interested who never played Classic Traveller in that edition there was Drive Failure in addition to Misjumps. In the 77 edition of Book 2, it could only happen if you used unrefined fuel and the chances increased the longer you went while burning unrefined fuel. And the modifier didn't go away just because you stopped using unrefined fuel. You had to spend a week in port on flushing and maintaining your engine to get rid of the chance.
The 81 edition had some other reasons why it might happen. Every week, you had to roll 2d6 to check for drive failure. Modifiers were +1 for using unrefined fuel, +1 per engineer you were short, and +1 per missed maintenance interval. If you got a 13+, you had a drive failure. Your power plant, maneuver drive, and/or jump drive crapped out. You could make a jury rigged fix in space, but needed full port repairs to address the damage long term.
So drive failure wasn't an issue if you ran your ship right, but if you were cutting corners it could be bad.
Also, in the original book 2 rules, merchant and other civilian ships didn't have the ability to refine fuel. Using unrefined fuel was explicitly called a "false economy" that was likely to cost you more in the long run.
Then the introduced fuel purification on ships, at which point refined fuel became a pointless luxury unless you were in a super hurry to jump again.
The 81 edition had some other reasons why it might happen. Every week, you had to roll 2d6 to check for drive failure. Modifiers were +1 for using unrefined fuel, +1 per engineer you were short, and +1 per missed maintenance interval. If you got a 13+, you had a drive failure. Your power plant, maneuver drive, and/or jump drive crapped out. You could make a jury rigged fix in space, but needed full port repairs to address the damage long term.
So drive failure wasn't an issue if you ran your ship right, but if you were cutting corners it could be bad.
Also, in the original book 2 rules, merchant and other civilian ships didn't have the ability to refine fuel. Using unrefined fuel was explicitly called a "false economy" that was likely to cost you more in the long run.
Then the introduced fuel purification on ships, at which point refined fuel became a pointless luxury unless you were in a super hurry to jump again.
This thread persuades me I'd expect a lot of larger ships custom designed and built for specific routes, rather than one size fits all megaship designs. Jump # especially could vary by route, Lash design or internal cargo ship could as well.
Of course those designs could slowly be superceded but still kept running, so there's room for diversity and oddballs.
I started trying to place secondary destinations in systems some time ago, less habitable worlds or just major stations with their own trade code. In system trade probably handled by high G jumpless craft, jump-capable craft probably only picking one destination before leaving system. And I'd like to do still more with it, but really it turns out to be mainly a curiousity for the GM. But it is strongly implied anyway, even if there's no direct rules support for generating it.
Of course those designs could slowly be superceded but still kept running, so there's room for diversity and oddballs.
I started trying to place secondary destinations in systems some time ago, less habitable worlds or just major stations with their own trade code. In system trade probably handled by high G jumpless craft, jump-capable craft probably only picking one destination before leaving system. And I'd like to do still more with it, but really it turns out to be mainly a curiousity for the GM. But it is strongly implied anyway, even if there's no direct rules support for generating it.
I have secondary worlds, stations, etc in most of my systems unless there is some reason why there wouldn't be. But they are just fluff unless you set adventures on them. Most of them are pretty crap places, because they aren't as good as the mainworld by definition.
But, yeah, as far as intrasystem trade goes, there's nothing in the mechanics that makes it player facing. Whether it would be high jump or jump 0 mostly depends on how far it is. And whether or not you use the 1000d limit on Maneuver drives that is technically the rule (which I find pointless and fun impairing, but ymmv). M4+ would get your in system cargo haulers to most places in the solar system as fast as jumping and cheaper. Though not safer if you like pirates in your game.
But, yeah, as far as intrasystem trade goes, there's nothing in the mechanics that makes it player facing. Whether it would be high jump or jump 0 mostly depends on how far it is. And whether or not you use the 1000d limit on Maneuver drives that is technically the rule (which I find pointless and fun impairing, but ymmv). M4+ would get your in system cargo haulers to most places in the solar system as fast as jumping and cheaper. Though not safer if you like pirates in your game.
AndrewW
Emperor Mongoose
And with less space taken up by fuel.
Arkathan
Emperor Mongoose
I find that rule to be asinine. There is a reason things orbit our sun out past one light year, and a gravitic drive can make use of that, even if not at full efficiency. But the fact that objects larger than the Death Star don't fly off into interstellar space, means that there is SOMETHING to push against or pull towards. By that same token, a stellar system 25K LY form the central black hole doesn't fly off into intergalactic space for the same reason.
Well, obviously I agree. But it is the technically the rule, so it should at least get a mention in discussion of how things work.
Well, I definitely agree that building the universe as if interstellar trade was more common than intrasystem trade doesn't seem reasonable. I would imagine that the interstellar traders concentrate at certain points, possibly just the main starport in many systems. But unless the system is just very low population or very low tech, I would expect a lot of resource gathering and possibly other sorts of outposts and minor colonies to be present.
The game obviously assumes that PCs are rambling from system to system. But you could easily make a campaign out of a heavily developed system and the players with a fast small craft or an space ship instead of a starship. Or even a jump 1 starship if you have far companion systems that also have colonies.
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
This is one of the reasons the Imperial Core worlds IMTU are very different to how DGP and MgT have imagined them to be, and why the Spinward marches has only had a significant Imperial presence since the Civil War era.
From the wiki:
650 years.
The Sylean federation was almost a sector in size by the time it was declared to be the new Imperium, the core group of Sylean worlds had been industrialised and developed a TL12 tech base.
We then get 600ish years of Imperial expansion, during which those core worlds continue to devlop in population size, tech base and the like.
1250 years of continuous prosperity and development.
We then get the civil war, the frontier wars, the psionic suppressions, the rim war.
500 years of conflict and societal change.
By 1105 to quote from the original Spinward Marches (my Imperium also has Rimward, Trailing and Coreward Marches now)
From the wiki:
Let that sink in.
650 years.
The Sylean federation was almost a sector in size by the time it was declared to be the new Imperium, the core group of Sylean worlds had been industrialised and developed a TL12 tech base.
We then get 600ish years of Imperial expansion, during which those core worlds continue to devlop in population size, tech base and the like.
1250 years of continuous prosperity and development.
We then get the civil war, the frontier wars, the psionic suppressions, the rim war.
500 years of conflict and societal change.
By 1105 to quote from the original Spinward Marches (my Imperium also has Rimward, Trailing and Coreward Marches now)
Very Fall of the Roman Empire... (cough Foundation cough)
An interesting thing to note is that the Imperial Navy is basically an internal security force. It does not seem to have a meaningful tradition of successful warfighting. The vast majority of Imperial expansion was "Hey, join us and we'll trade with you and suppress piracy." Some crushing pocket empires that were basically glorified pirate havens. The few serious conflicts during the expansion period were not considered notably successful. Yeah, they beat the Antares cluster, the Chanestin, and the Lancians, but they were generally viewed as marginal or outright pyrrhic victories. And they flat out lost to the Julians.
The Frontier Wars with the Zhodani have been defensive wars that often didn't go all that well. The fights against the Vargr and the Aslan were also essentially defensive wars and not against any really organized state. Basically just "Stop sending corsairs and ihatei into our space.".
There was the Solomani Rim War, but that wasn't exactly glorious for the Imperium either. They won, but it has a lot more to do with hearts & minds amongst the subject species of the Solomani (like the Vegans) and a lot of attrition than any kind of warfighting competence.
The vision of the Imperium as a robust, bad ass nation doesn't sit well with a lot of the published lore.
The Frontier Wars with the Zhodani have been defensive wars that often didn't go all that well. The fights against the Vargr and the Aslan were also essentially defensive wars and not against any really organized state. Basically just "Stop sending corsairs and ihatei into our space.".
There was the Solomani Rim War, but that wasn't exactly glorious for the Imperium either. They won, but it has a lot more to do with hearts & minds amongst the subject species of the Solomani (like the Vegans) and a lot of attrition than any kind of warfighting competence.
The vision of the Imperium as a robust, bad ass nation doesn't sit well with a lot of the published lore.
This is a very fair point. I wonder though how much of that was intended, versus how much was the Worf effect - a writer needed to show the opponent was tough, so they gave him a win against the "tough" good guy. Except they did it too much, and the good guy is no longer tough.
The bottom line comes out the same either way for a canon appreciator. Except that, the fact the Imperium Navy isn't great against external foes doesn't mean they're not just trying and failing, rather than deliberately only gearing up for anti-piracy.
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