Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
THAC0.
Seriously, you'd have to abstract a range of performance per factor.
Seriously, you'd have to abstract a range of performance per factor.
Imperium capital ships of the 5FW - some thoughts
- Thread starter ChrisJ
- Start date
The main problem here is the scale. Most wargames assume some kind of roughly comparable ships. Traveller has 10 ton ships up to 1 million+
Any values that work at one end are absurd to the point of useleas at the other.
I'm assuming a larger ship would just scale up the ATT/DEF numbers, or some sort of tracker to keep track of damage.
At scale having one more missile battery vs a laser battery just kind of blends in.
Sure, but if you have a scale where 10 attack destroys 1 defense for a 10 ton ship, then in most wargames, that means either 20000 attack annihilates 19991 defense. Or if you say that it needs 20000 attack to destroy 2000 defense, then suddenly 12 attack doesnt wreck 3 defense.
In either case there are significant problems at one end or the other.
In either case there are significant problems at one end or the other.
AnotherDilbert
Emperor Mongoose
We did try to do this on CotI recently, e.g.:
https://www.travellerrpg.com/index.php?threads/high-guard-1-5-1979-edition.43100/post-645023
The problem is that you get a logarithmic scale where more or less all fighters have factor 1 and battleships have factor 9. Most of the differences between ships are lost in the cracks.
Just use the counters from Imperium of FFW, or something similar?
https://www.travellerrpg.com/index.php?threads/high-guard-1-5-1979-edition.43100/post-645023
The problem is that you get a logarithmic scale where more or less all fighters have factor 1 and battleships have factor 9. Most of the differences between ships are lost in the cracks.
Just use the counters from Imperium of FFW, or something similar?
AnotherDilbert
Emperor Mongoose
MgT HG Fleet Battle?
collins355
Banded Mongoose
There is a system in T4 Imperial Squadrons that helps you do the FFW type counters and fight a strategic wargame on your choice of sector hexmap.
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
Something from many, many years ago.
Ships are rated as follows, a-a-a attack factors for spinal - bays - missiles, and d-d-d for armour-screens-point defence and jump number
Start with a TL9 and factors of 3-3-3/3-3-3 J1 for a BB. For heavy cruisers 2-2-2/2-2-2 J1, and other cruisers/escorts at 1-1-1/1-1-1 And then use the same TL based increases and points swapping mentioned earlier (based on HG80 breakpoints). You can lower one factor (including jump number) to increase one of the others, you can also reduce a factor by1 to gain 1 squadron of fighters.
Jump number above 3 comes with a cost - jump 4 you must reduce 2 factors, jump 5 costs you 4 factors, and jump 6 costs 6 factors.
For attack and defence factors there are several TL break points, above TL9 add 1 to the initial factor as follows..
Attack
+1 TL11
+2 TL13
+3 TL15
Defence
+1 TL10
+2 TL12
+3 TL14
Factors can also be reassigned to cover things like carrying battle riders, carrying fuel/drop tanks, carrying troops and their vehicles...
Ships are rated as follows, a-a-a attack factors for spinal - bays - missiles, and d-d-d for armour-screens-point defence and jump number
Start with a TL9 and factors of 3-3-3/3-3-3 J1 for a BB. For heavy cruisers 2-2-2/2-2-2 J1, and other cruisers/escorts at 1-1-1/1-1-1 And then use the same TL based increases and points swapping mentioned earlier (based on HG80 breakpoints). You can lower one factor (including jump number) to increase one of the others, you can also reduce a factor by1 to gain 1 squadron of fighters.
Jump number above 3 comes with a cost - jump 4 you must reduce 2 factors, jump 5 costs you 4 factors, and jump 6 costs 6 factors.
For attack and defence factors there are several TL break points, above TL9 add 1 to the initial factor as follows..
Attack
+1 TL11
+2 TL13
+3 TL15
Defence
+1 TL10
+2 TL12
+3 TL14
Factors can also be reassigned to cover things like carrying battle riders, carrying fuel/drop tanks, carrying troops and their vehicles...
Last edited:
collins355
Banded Mongoose
Yes, but it is a ship-vs-ship, squadron-vs-squadron system, not a simplified fleet combat grand strategy game. There is a "Strategic Game" in the back of PP:F but it is just Trillion Credit Squadron using the Power Projection rules and ships to resolve battles. It is not going to help you resolve fleet combat quickly using a few key stats like FFW or T4 Imperial Squadrons.
wintertraveller
Banded Mongoose
Is there a venue or forum where Trillion Credit Squadron skirmishes are still played or did the whole Eurisko thing kill this style of game play entirely? Thanks
ottarrus
Emperor Mongoose
As far as I know, the 'latest' Trillion Credit Squadron Mongoose Traveller 1e version. I tried running a three ship skirmish and didn't have much luck with it.
If you're looking for someone to play the LBB version, I think you'll have better luck at coti.
And I have no idea why a Eurisko algorithm would effect a TCS game at all.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Artificial intelligence will now likely optimize fleet selection and tactics.
Way back in the day when TCS first came out they had tournaments at conventions and Eurisko designed fleets won the first two tournaments. The programmer stopped using it after the refs said that if it won again, they'd just stop running the event.
CordwainerFish
Emperor Mongoose
As it happens, the source code for EURISKO has turned up. As it was written for Interlisp, it would take a bit of computational archeology to get it running on a modern Lisp; also, Lenat's TCS import data doesn't seem to be in the archive.
AnotherDilbert
Emperor Mongoose
I don't think Eurisko killed it, more like the sheer amount of work involved.
Designing a good viable fleet is a lot of work.
Fighting a hundred or so ships against another set of a hundred ships is a lot of work. Unbalanced battles are quick, balanced battles are a slog where lots of small decisions might matter. Even with LBB5, that is very streamlined.
Getting a group of people together at the same time, to spend a lot of time, is the final nail in the coffer.
wintertraveller
Banded Mongoose
That makes sense.
Has anyone else seen the error in the bay weapons table?
bay the power for a meson when compared with the Fusion and Particle.
Small bay
Fusion power: 50 Damage: 6D Range: Med
Meson power: 20 Damage: 5D Range: Long
Particle power: 30 Damage: 6D Range V Long
Med Bay
Fusion power: 80 Damage: 7D Range: Med
Meson power: 30 Damage: 6D Range: Long
Particle Power: 50 Damage: 8D Range: V Long
Large Bay
Fusion power: 100 Damage: 10D Range: Long
Meson power: 120 Damage: 6D Range: Long
Particle power: 80 Damage: 10D Range: Distance
As you can see the Large Meson Gun bay doesn’t make any sense the large bay doesn’t do any more damage when compared to the others. Its range never increases yet the power requirements jumps for no advantage. While both the Fusion and Particle bay stay consistent between all 3 bay sizes. Is there an errata for this because by my reckoning the power requirements should be 40 for the large bay or the small should be 60 the medium should be 90. I honestly not sure which way it should go but it’s definitely wrong as it is right now. Also the damage is inconsistent when you compare the three the large bay should be doing 8D damage 7D at the minimum.
bay the power for a meson when compared with the Fusion and Particle.
Small bay
Fusion power: 50 Damage: 6D Range: Med
Meson power: 20 Damage: 5D Range: Long
Particle power: 30 Damage: 6D Range V Long
Med Bay
Fusion power: 80 Damage: 7D Range: Med
Meson power: 30 Damage: 6D Range: Long
Particle Power: 50 Damage: 8D Range: V Long
Large Bay
Fusion power: 100 Damage: 10D Range: Long
Meson power: 120 Damage: 6D Range: Long
Particle power: 80 Damage: 10D Range: Distance
As you can see the Large Meson Gun bay doesn’t make any sense the large bay doesn’t do any more damage when compared to the others. Its range never increases yet the power requirements jumps for no advantage. While both the Fusion and Particle bay stay consistent between all 3 bay sizes. Is there an errata for this because by my reckoning the power requirements should be 40 for the large bay or the small should be 60 the medium should be 90. I honestly not sure which way it should go but it’s definitely wrong as it is right now. Also the damage is inconsistent when you compare the three the large bay should be doing 8D damage 7D at the minimum.
