UWP and the Imperial Population

[MasterGwydion]

complaint about the UWP digit seeming to have no relevance to the actual situation with no clear explainable reason why, but the original UWPs (especially the bizarre ones) were meant to be a spur to creativity in trying to explain their existence, and not an error to be corrected. It took me a long time to figure that out.

Not so much when there is no clear explainable reason why, but when there is and it still makes no sense, like Cordan. We only count these ppl, because We feel like it, and not those because We don't. Did the writer think that the UWP was filled out by each planet so they could count however they wanted? Doesn't seem like something that the Imperium would do, specially not on a non-Imperial world. Personally, I hate that UWP is used for out-of-game mechanics as well as an in-game database that is 100% guaranteed to be inaccurate (if some made up person decided to make it inaccurate) and therefore is not data that can be trusted by Referees to use for the OOG mechanics, but that is My cross to carry in this game. Poor design, but almost no one agrees with Me.

 

[rinku]

Okay.

Maybe look at it this way... what is the population code actually used for in a normal Traveller game? A few things.

1) Generating government and law codes, in come cases they can effect Tech Level and Starport. Those are subjective things anyway. Guidelines for the Referee to flesh out, and always subject to Referee fiat instead of random rolls.

2) Generating trade codes.

3) Generating passengers and freight.

The last two probably bring it home - it's primarily a rating of the planet's engagement with interstellar travel and trade (as distinct from GDP, which may well only matter locally). How many passengers and how much freight is around.

10 billion savages on a planet with no starport? Irrelevant. The demographics are really just background colour. But if there is a starport there, maybe they have a lot of wanderlust. All those Barbarians have to come from somewhere.

A million slave workers ruled over by a thousand slavers, who are the only ones who form the travelling pool? Quite possibly Pop 3 instead of Pop 6.

MOST of the time it will just be the same - billions of actual people, all of whom might be able to travel, even if most don't.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Okay.

Maybe look at it this way... what is the population code actually used for in a normal Traveller game? A few things.

1) Generating government and law codes, in come cases they can effect Tech Level and Starport. Those are subjective things anyway. Guidelines for the Referee to flesh out, and always subject to Referee fiat instead of random rolls.

2) Generating trade codes.

3) Generating passengers and freight.

The last two probably bring it home - it's primarily a rating of the planet's engagement with interstellar travel and trade (as distinct from GDP, which may well only matter locally). How many passengers and how much freight is around.

If it is purely economic, then it should state that somewhere in its description.

10 billion savages on a planet with no starport? Irrelevant. The demographics are really just background colour. But if there is a starport there, maybe they have a lot of wanderlust. All those Barbarians have to come from somewhere.

A million slave workers ruled over by a thousand slavers, who are the only ones who form the travelling pool? Quite possibly Pop 3 instead of Pop 6.

So, none of the work provided by the slave labor is exported either? Ever? On any world that has a discrepancy?

MOST of the time it will just be the same - billions of actual people, all of whom might be able to travel, even if most don't.

 

[rinku]

If it is purely economic, then it should state that somewhere in its description.

So, none of the work provided by the slave labor is exported either? Ever? On any world that has a discrepancy?

Sure it is. Just like robot labour and automated factories' output is. That's a matter for economic extension stuff.

Draught animals also provide work. Should they be counted in the census?

I'm just talking about what the Pop code is actually used for in a normal Traveller game - generating available passengers, freight and cargo.

It's just an idea I had, that might help you frame things better. Take or leave it as you see fit.

 

[Condottiere]

The thing about the Solomani is that they are a Confederation. The Dingir League, Easter Concord, Old Earth Union, etc., were all independent polities that joined the Imperium freely at different times over the course of the 5th-6th Centuries Imperial. The rise of Vilani power at the Imperial Court in the late 7th-early 8th Century that so offended certain Sylean-Solomani elements of the Nobility either may or may not have found resonance with some elements of the former Rimward polities and its former member and independent worlds. Others could have probably not cared less, having had little or nothing to do with the Vilani for a long time.

Even so, Sylean-Solomani Nobles (and Rimward Cultures) in 704 at the time of the establishment of the SAR would likely have had time to evolve and change by the time reactionary elements declared the independent Confederation in 871. And why a Confederation in the first place (not only of worlds but also of subordinate multiworld member-polities) if they were so unified in viewpoint and racial purpose? And why is the Solomani Party so factionalized almost 240 years later, not even agreeing on a common defining and unifying vision for what the Party promotes?

SolSec and the Party and the Movement may be a thing, but it seems definitely to be a thing belonging to a certain niche demographic among the Solomani among certain factions of those holding power at the interstellar level and those they can co-opt among local aspiring "wannabes". The strength of the Movement within the Party or Governance of the Solomani likely waxes and wanes among the elites depending upon the era; the member polities, worlds, and polity/world-citizens of a confederation need not necessarily care at all about the Confederation Organization elites' personal ideas and motivations, as long as they are not interfered with too much (and the "independent-minded Solomani" get it in their heads to be even more "independent-minded" yet once again - and get rid of the Confederation Organization itself).

The Imperium likely exaggerates all of this in its own political propaganda, painting the Confederation as far more monolithic than it actually is, in fact (and therefore depicted as far more of a perceived threat).

One party states tend to have by definition, a big tent.

There's this tension between centralization and planetary autonomy, and Confederation implies that as long as lip service is paid to the state ideology, you tend to be left alone.

There's a believe in Forty Kay, that the very vast mass of humanity has no contact with the paramilitary forces of the God Emperor, and live very peaceful lives.

Comparatively.

In fact, the fractious polities within the Confederation are allowed to compete against each other, as long as they don't disrupt the functioning thereof.

Planetary blockade ala The Phantom Menace could be a step too far.

 

[phavoc]

If they are not counted in that number, say because they are of a disfavored class, are they still Imperial Citizens? even if their Homeworld, which they live on, does not count them in the UWP?

This is even a larger problem outside of the Imperium with a world like Cordan. It flat-out states that the UWP Pop Code is only for the Baronial Households and not for the majority of the planetary population. Cordan isn't even an Imperial World, so why would the IISS only count the Baronial Households? Things like this should be exceptions, outliers. Something that was put in deliberately as a plothook, not just because of either lazy writing/editing or poor quality control.

Well, if Cordan isn't an Imperial world, than non-Imperial citizens would not count towards an Imperial census (though the Baronial households, if they are all Imperials, would).

The UWP for a planet would (or should) be for the entire population. For worlds within the Imperium, they are defacto Imperial citizens - whether they want to claim their citizenship and travel as Imperial citizens or not. Worlds outside of the Imperium may have census done for their own needs, but it's not performed or handled by Imperial agencies. The IISS might do some data gathering to update their databases, but they would not care to try and implement a census count directly unless it could be done by orbit and the world in question is not strong enough to stop them from being within their orbit.

Worlds with low tech may, or may not, conduct their own, though low-tech governments would be very restricted in their reach. Parts of Europe tried to conduct census efforts a thousand years ago (not sure about Romans, though I'm sure they had something similar, if perhaps cruder). Citizens and slaves were counted, though at the time it was mostly for taxation purposes than anything else. England had it's Domesday book so the king could get what was due to him. I don't know as much about more ancient cultures, let alone Eastern history, but I'm sure similar things were done back then as well.

Don't read too much into the books looking for exacting and logical explanations. You will just end up with a headache.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Well, if Cordan isn't an Imperial world, than non-Imperial citizens would not count towards an Imperial census (though the Baronial households, if they are all Imperials, would).

Which is why My OP was asking if anyone knew of any situations like Cordan within the Imperium.

The UWP for a planet would (or should) be for the entire population. For worlds within the Imperium, they are defacto Imperial citizens - whether they want to claim their citizenship and travel as Imperial citizens or not. Worlds outside of the Imperium may have census done for their own needs, but it's not performed or handled by Imperial agencies. The IISS might do some data gathering to update their databases, but they would not care to try and implement a census count directly unless it could be done by orbit and the world in question is not strong enough to stop them from being within their orbit.

Right, but what happens when the UWP of an Imperial world says that there are between 10,000 and 99,999, but the descriptive texts says that is only 1% of the actual planetary population? Are the other 99% not Imperial Citizens?

Worlds with low tech may, or may not, conduct their own, though low-tech governments would be very restricted in their reach. Parts of Europe tried to conduct census efforts a thousand years ago (not sure about Romans, though I'm sure they had something similar, if perhaps cruder). Citizens and slaves were counted, though at the time it was mostly for taxation purposes than anything else. England had it's Domesday book so the king could get what was due to him. I don't know as much about more ancient cultures, let alone Eastern history, but I'm sure similar things were done back then as well.

Don't read too much into the books looking for exacting and logical explanations. You will just end up with a headache.

People got off on the tangent about censuses (censsi?), but My question is specifically about the UWP. Who cares how the planetary governments do their censuses. What matters is the UWP number. In-game, that means that the IISS surveys say there are that many people on the world, not the planetary government. This is even more true outside of the Imperium. IISS maintains stealth scout ships for performing surveys where they are not welcome.

 

[Condottiere]

That's just the main planet.

Other planets, or asteroids, could be populated.

 

[rinku]

Aright.

It's just a game value, used to determine game effects.

Just like Strength. Or Intelligence. Or Gun Combat skill level.

The game effects are defined; everything else is background colour.

You can decide that it's an in-universe rating assigned by an in-universe authority. Or that it's the objective truth.

YTU.

Either way, sometimes the players are in for a surprise if they don't read the footnotes.

 

[WHULorigan]

There's this tension between centralization and planetary autonomy, and Confederation implies that as long as lip service is paid to the state ideology, you tend to be left alone.

But Confederation also usually implies a relatively loose alliance with de-centralized control, except for the coordinating efforts of the Confederation itself which unites the actions of the member states under specified circumstances. It is generally less centralized than a Federation.

Of course, the term could be total B.S. like "People's Republic of . . . " and "Democratic Republic of . . ." employed by despotic regimes. But the descriptions of the Solomani Confederation thru the various editions of Traveller over the decades seem to imply that during the Golden Age at least, the term credibly applies.

 

[boggo2300]

Well, if Cordan isn't an Imperial world, than non-Imperial citizens would not count towards an Imperial census (though the Baronial households, if they are all Imperials, would).

The UWP for a planet would (or should) be for the entire population. For worlds within the Imperium, they are defacto Imperial citizens - whether they want to claim their citizenship and travel as Imperial citizens or not. Worlds outside of the Imperium may have census done for their own needs, but it's not performed or handled by Imperial agencies. The IISS might do some data gathering to update their databases, but they would not care to try and implement a census count directly unless it could be done by orbit and the world in question is not strong enough to stop them from being within their orbit.

Worlds with low tech may, or may not, conduct their own, though low-tech governments would be very restricted in their reach. Parts of Europe tried to conduct census efforts a thousand years ago (not sure about Romans, though I'm sure they had something similar, if perhaps cruder). Citizens and slaves were counted, though at the time it was mostly for taxation purposes than anything else. England had it's Domesday book so the king could get what was due to him. I don't know as much about more ancient cultures, let alone Eastern history, but I'm sure similar things were done back then as well.

Don't read too much into the books looking for exacting and logical explanations. You will just end up with a headache.

Or my personal point of view: whoever wrote the fluff for Corden didn't even bother to read the rules, and thus that fluff text is garbage and has no bearing on the ACUTAL Corden system, just a piece of Fan-Fic... Poor Fan-Fic, because the UWP POP code IS the ACTUAL Population of the world, as recorded by the IISS, not some ficticious number made up by numpties

 

[Sigtrygg]

One party state?

The confederation is not a one party state. Every polity within the confederation have its own way of doing things.

Modern surveillance equipment?

Good luck paying for the amount you would need and the personnel to use it on every confederation member world, especially when the local polity is against such surveillance.

Artificial intelligence prediction?

Trade is encouraged, except possibly by the hardliners.

There were confederation states still trading with the Imperium even during the Rim War.

Whether it's intended or not, the Confederation bears an awful resemblance to the Chinese Mainland.

No, it only resembles that to an Imperial observer. The confederation is a confederation, not a federation. The confederation level government is not as powerful as the individual confederation polities.

Someone should write an up to date Confederation sourcebook from the perspective of the old terran colony worlds and the polities that evolved from them. This should detail the whole of terran space and it should ignore Imperial propaganda.

 

[Sigtrygg]

One party states tend to have by definition, a big tent.

But the Solomani Confederation is not a one party state, it is a multi polity confederation.

There's this tension between centralization and planetary autonomy, and Confederation implies that as long as lip service is paid to the state ideology, you tend to be left alone.

It;s the other way round. The confederation has to tip toe around the polity governments, as the polity governments have all the real power.

There's a believe in Forty Kay, that the very vast mass of humanity has no contact with the paramilitary forces of the God Emperor, and live very peaceful lives.

This is not Forty Kay, stick to The Third Imperium setting.

Comparatively.

In fact, the fractious polities within the Confederation are allowed to compete against each other, as long as they don't disrupt the functioning thereof.

It;s not so much as they are allowed it is that the confederation tier of government has no authority to stop them.

Planetary blockade ala The Phantom Menace could be a step too far.

Wrong universe, again.

 

[Sigtrygg]

That's just the main planet.

Other planets, or asteroids, could be populated.

This is a very good point. Once you start to use extended system generation you suddenly discover a whole lot of new problems to explain away

 

[Sigtrygg]

Which is why My OP was asking if anyone knew of any situations like Cordan within the Imperium.

I don;t think I ever replied to this. Yes there is an example, Craw in the Glisten subsector was used by the Keith brothers to guide a referee through interpreting the UPP. GDW JTAS 10.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Or my personal point of view: whoever wrote the fluff for Corden didn't even bother to read the rules, and thus that fluff text is garbage and has no bearing on the ACUTAL Corden system, just a piece of Fan-Fic... Poor Fan-Fic, because the UWP POP code IS the ACTUAL Population of the world, as recorded by the IISS, not some ficticious number made up by numpties

Or they had read the Keith brothers article in GDW JTAS 10 and used the suggestions contained within.

My personal point of view is that the setting data provided is for referees to use and abuse as they see fit. I steer clear of supplements that seek to provide even capsule descriptions of every word in a sector, unless they contain other information that may be useful.

I (and my players) decide what the UPP numbers mean as we explore the universe together.

 

[Condottiere]

Solomani Confederation worlds are much like other Human worlds. The physical details and process for creating worlds is the same as detailed in the Traveller Core Rulebook. However, there are some differences in the meaning of certain terms – the Solomani idea of a democracy might be a little different to that used in the Imperium. This is because whilst Solomani Confederation worlds include all the usual government profiles, the Confederation’s charter restricts government to the Solomani Party. This seeming contradiction is explained through the flexibility of the Party in adapting itself to different societies and social hierarchies.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Government at the confederation level, which derived its authority from the appointed Sylean nobles cos-playing as Solomani.

Individual polities are not governed by the party, there are a dozen or so polities that are members of the confederation and not a single one is governed by the party.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Aright.

It's just a game value, used to determine game effects.

It would be if it was not also an in-game resource. Making it both is what is causing all of these problems. If it were one or the other than it is easy to fix, but with it being both, Traveller has made it impossible to use it as an out-of-game mechanic

Just like Strength. Or Intelligence. Or Gun Combat skill level.

Show Me where you need to read the "footnotes" in order to use your STR, INT, or Gun Combat Skill? Or are you implying that the numbers on character sheets are now inaccurate as well and therefore unusable as written.

The game effects are defined; everything else is background colour.

Then what is the definition of the Travellermap and UWPs? Why does the Travellermap have Gas Giants listed if there is no game benefit? Seems to be mor than just background color to Me? It literally tells you if you can do gas giant refueling or not. That seems to be a rules thing, not a background color thing.

You can decide that it's an in-universe rating assigned by an in-universe authority. Or that it's the objective truth.

I can, but I would be going against Canon to do so, which I try to avoid if at all possible. The Travellermap is clearly defined as both an in-game resource and an out-of-game mechanic

YTU.

Yeah, we can Rule Zero anything, obviously, but the more that has to be Rule Zeroed, the less reason that there is to buy Traveller.

Either way, sometimes the players are in for a surprise if they don't read the footnotes.

The players, yeah, the characters not so much, especially if they are from one of the nearby systems.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I don;t think I ever replied to this. Yes there is an example, Craw in the Glisten subsector was used by the Keith brothers to guide a referee through interpreting the UPP. GDW JTAS 10.

Thanks! Now I need to go find that article.