UWP and the Imperial Population

[MasterGwydion]

Okay, so you are asking census-related question. The most logical in-game answer would be that the scout service does not count each individual when they do a survey. They just collect data provided to them by the local governments (or whoever is in charge) and in some cases, not every sophont is counted by that locality for reasons which may be left unanswered. They may not be Imperial Citizens per se, but rather counted by whatever metric the local government determined. I think expecting a scout ship to do a manual count of every sophont is a bit of a stretch when we're talking billions of sophonts across the galaxy. It would make much more sense that they are simply compiling data already gathered by others, and it is susceptible to error, intentional omission, or even malicious intent.

The IISS would be counting people by orders of magnitude, which is done from orbit, as part of the Preliminary Survey on page 4 of the Deep Space Exploration Handbook. So, no, I am asking about the official UWP published by the IISS from the Second Survey, which is what the UWPs are, officially published IISS surveys.

Unless you are saying that the IISS is given all of its data by planetary governments and doesn't perform actual survey work?

 

[metlk]

Then some published adventures and adventure hooks no longer function, such as the Patron task for Cordan out of the Drinax books.

(Yes. I agree that is how it should be, but @MongooseMatt and Mongoose in general disagrees with us.)

They function just fine if you're willing to accept that authors can and do make mistakes, or in some instances there may be an in-game reason they want to misrepresent a particular population.

 

[metlk]

The IISS would be counting people by orders of magnitude, which is done from orbit, as part of the Preliminary Survey on page 4 of the Deep Space Exploration Handbook. So, no, I am asking about the official UWP published by the IISS from the Second Survey, which is what the UWPs are, officially published IISS surveys.

Unless you are saying that the IISS is given all of its data by planetary governments and doesn't perform actual survey work?

I see what you're pointing at, starting at a survey index of 9. It is rather vague on how it gathers that "reasonable estimate," considering mapping, atmo, liquid and bio samples aren't going to tell what the pop is. Analysis could mean sensor data, or it could mean data gathered from the planetary governments (when there is one.)
EDIT: If you look at page 5, it talks about survey indexes of 10 being done on planets routinely visited by starships and if it's a planet commecial starships do not travel to, there won't be much known about it. I would infer that to suggest they coordinate with planetary authorities for much of the information.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I see what you're pointing at, starting at a survey index of 9. It is rather vague on how it gathers that "reasonable estimate," considering mapping, atmo, liquid and bio samples aren't going to tell what the pop is. Analysis could mean sensor data, or it could mean data gathered from the planetary governments (when there is one.)
EDIT: If you look at page 5, it talks about survey indexes of 10 being done on planets routinely visited by starships and if it's a planet commecial starships do not travel to, there won't be much known about it. I would infer that to suggest they coordinate with planetary authorities for much of the information.

Then I am definitely going to have to start keeping two databases, one of the Official IISS travellermap and one with the real UWP numbers. That is a huge hassle.

 

[Fluffy Bunny Feet]

It is just that your starship quirk is "Library computer contains erroneous information."

Simple its a computer glitch.

 

[Condottiere]

The Scout Service has an Intelligence branch, and likely an analysis department.

You stick a couple of satellites in orbit, and let them accumulate data over a decade.

It won't be precise, but the results should be accurate.

 

[collins355]

Seems like maybe Terra's population was undercounted...

Are there billions more people on earth than we thought? If so, it’s no bad thing | Jonathan Kennedy

A study suggests the global population has been undercounted – but we shouldn’t let the overpopulation alarmists win the argument, says academic and writer Jonathan Kennedy

www.theguardian.com

 

[MasterGwydion]

The Scout Service has an Intelligence branch, and likely an analysis department.

You stick a couple of satellites in orbit, and let them accumulate data over a decade.

It won't be precise, but the results should be accurate.

Inaccurate.

Page 55 of High Guard. Life Scanner

"LIFE SCANNER The life scanner is a ship-mounted sensor array specifically calibrated for detecting signs of life and differentiating between life forms. For example, it can differentiate between colonies of insects, herds of migrating animals and social groups of sentient creatures. Typically used in high orbit above a newly discovered planet, within 24 hours (for an average, earth-sized world) it can identify and quantify population densities, likely life types (sapient, sentient, non-sapient and so forth) and ecological niches."

 

[Fluffy Bunny Feet]

Inaccurate.

Page 55 of High Guard. Life Scanner

"LIFE SCANNER The life scanner is a ship-mounted sensor array specifically calibrated for detecting signs of life and differentiating between life forms. For example, it can differentiate between colonies of insects, herds of migrating animals and social groups of sentient creatures. Typically used in high orbit above a newly discovered planet, within 24 hours (for an average, earth-sized world) it can identify and quantify population densities, likely life types (sapient, sentient, non-sapient and so forth) and ecological niches."

You left out the accuracy of 70=85%. You also need a Electronics (Sensors) check to correctly interpret them which adds another layer of uncertainty to the results.

For accuracy you need the TL 14 version.

 

[MasterGwydion]

You left out the accuracy of 70=85%. You also need a Electronics (Sensors) check to correctly interpret them which adds another layer of uncertainty to the results.

For accuracy you need the TL 14 version.

Yeah, but guess what 70% of a Pop 5 world is? You guessed it! Pop 5! lol! When each number is ten times more than the number before it, you'd need an accuracy of 10% (or inaccuracy or 90%) for it to make a major difference.

Electronics (sensors) check? Diff 8? +1 for skill, +1 for ability, +1 for expert, +1 for Improved Sensors. So far, they need to roll 4 or better and I didn't even take into account going slow. Since you need a 4, that puts it in Easy territory.

So, yeah, I left them out because those two bits of information when combined with a competent IISS crew, well... See below.

91.6% chance in 24 hours or,

97% chance in a week

 

[Fluffy Bunny Feet]

Yeah, but guess what 70% of a Pop 5 world is? You guessed it! Pop 5! lol! When each number is ten times more than the number before it, you'd need an accuracy of 10% (or inaccuracy or 90%) for it to make a major difference.

Inaccurate. If you are low in a population range you drop into the next lower range if you are high in the range you rise to the next range.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Inaccurate. If you are low in a population range you drop into the next lower range if you are high in the range you rise to the next range.

Edge cases, yes.

 

[metlk]

Inaccurate.

Page 55 of High Guard. Life Scanner

"LIFE SCANNER The life scanner is a ship-mounted sensor array specifically calibrated for detecting signs of life and differentiating between life forms. For example, it can differentiate between colonies of insects, herds of migrating animals and social groups of sentient creatures. Typically used in high orbit above a newly discovered planet, within 24 hours (for an average, earth-sized world) it can identify and quantify population densities, likely life types (sapient, sentient, non-sapient and so forth) and ecological niches."

"..can identify and quantify population densities, likely life types (sapient, sentient, non-sapient and so forth), and ecological niches."

Just because it can identify a group as potentially sentient, that would not be nearly enough to consider them part of the population. Our own apes and dolphins might register as sentient or sapient, but would never be considered part of the population count of our planet. The Imperium would need to rely on local governments for the information to differentiate between life forms and actual population, and that is open to error and intentional omission by any group that may consider another group a "lesser species." Earth's own experience with slavery is enough to demonstrate that, even though the enslaved were most certainly sentient, sapient beings.

 

[MasterGwydion]

"..can identify and quantify population densities, likely life types (sapient, sentient, non-sapient and so forth), and ecological niches."

Just because it can identify a group as potentially sentient, that would not be nearly enough to consider them part of the population. Our own apes and dolphins might register as sentient or sapient, but would never be considered part of the population count of our planet. The Imperium would need to rely on local governments for the information to differentiate between life forms and actual population, and that is open to error and intentional omission by any group that may consider another group a "lesser species." Earth's own experience with slavery is enough to demonstrate that, even though the enslaved were most certainly sentient, sapient beings.

Sentient is sophont, including uplifted Dolphins and Apes.
Sapient is intelligent non-sophonts such as non-uplifted Dolphins and Apes

If they are sophonts, then they are part of the population number.

Now, do you really want to break your brain?

Page 252 of the CRB

"The Population code measures the planet’s intelligent population. The Population code can be generalised as the number of zeroes following a one, so Population 6 indicates a population in the millions (1,000,000)."

So, technically this means that the Population Code in the UWP includes all intelligent creatures, including non-uplifted apes, dolphins, whales, felines, bears, canines, etc. lolz

 

[Condottiere]

That's why you surveil over time and space, to pick up patterns.

 

[rinku]

Robots are also often intelligent, as are computers with the right software.

Loose terminology in the basic book. Dealt with in detail in the books that go into such things in more detail.

But an alien sophont population that doesn't register on the scanners in the way they were calibrated for will likely be ignored. Even Psionic scans might mistake brains that think in a radically different way as animals, so what hope does a remote ECG have?

To be honest, if it's just brain activity, initial scans ARE going to favour large brains and might miss small populations of really smart ones that are also small in size. Further investigation is ALWAYS required, and a world that's only had a quick survey is always going to hold surprises.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Robots are also often intelligent, as are computers with the right software.

Loose terminology in the basic book. Dealt with in detail in the books that go into such things in more detail.

Deep Space Explorers' Handbook says basically 2 weeks in orbit and you have the entire UWP at Survey Index 10.

SI-9 is "As 8, plus correct first three planetary profile digits. Reasonable estimate of Population and Tech Level"

SI-10 is "Full planetary profile data"

But an alien sophont population that doesn't register on the scanners in the way they were calibrated for will likely be ignored. Even Psionic scans might mistake brains that think in a radically different way as animals, so what hope does a remote ECG have?

To be honest, if it's just brain activity, initial scans ARE going to favour large brains and might miss small populations of really smart ones that are also small in size. Further investigation is ALWAYS required, and a world that's only had a quick survey is always going to hold surprises.

Heck, even a world that has been fully surveyed and lived on for centuries can still be full of surprises.

As far as the Life Scanner goes, it doesn't say specifically how it works, it just says that it works. It can't have a NAS at its TL, so who knows? It is some kind of tech we don't have and don't understand yet. (At least until Mongoose defines it, if they ever even want to. My guess is that they prefer it vague. Then it just works.)

 

[rinku]

Well, that section also stresses not everything is known, even at level 10.

If the world is technological, determining its government and law level from a two week orbital observation is fine, but I can't see that you could reliably tell a TL2 oligarchy from a theocracy, let alone work out the law level without sending down something. Assumptions would be made and incorrect ratings sometimes assigned.

And that's fine. More fun when the players land and find they were badly informed.

But most likely the orbital survey does include some landfall, even if it's just discreet drones. Lower tech societies are unlikely to notice a stealth drone or a carefully sited observation post. If it appears the planet is uninhabited, the survey team might well be bolder in landing.

 

[Condottiere]

Annual probing.

 

[rinku]

No one has the budget for a yearly check up.