Sector and Subsector-wide Merchant Lines

[Terry Mixon]

Operating costs are higher at the bigger starports. Higher berthing fees. Class A and B you pay 5 times as much for fuel as well. So, the hub and spoke model clearly doesn't work in Charted Space. lol

Looking at the core rulebook, I’m not sure it’s saying that a class A or B Starport only has refined fuel. I’m inclined to read it as refined is available.

There is no reason why they wouldn’t have unrefined as well, too. That might not be a strict reading of the rules but it’s how I would play it.

 

[rinku]

Yeah, but my point is what was the passenger capacity and actual costs in comparison?

A jump-6 ship has 60% of its volume just for the jump fuel, compared to 30% for a J-3 ship that jumps, refuels and jumps again. And it has bigger drives, which are more expensive, needing more engineers, which reduce the capacity further.

It also pretty much HAS to run a jump-6 route, or one that largely involves those jumps. On a J-5 route a J-5 ship will outperform it; on a J-4 route a J-4 ship will outperform both, etc.

 

[Sageryne]

Too expensive in both time and money. To go one J-1 system away, you may have to pay for 2 Jump-2 tickets. That changes the price from 13,000Cr round-trip to 40,000Cr. It also changes the time involved from 3 weeks (2 weeks in jump, 1 week on planet) to 7 weeks. (4 weeks in jump. 2 weeks in the hub looking for and buying tickets for the next leg. 1 week at your destination.)

What will really determine it is the trade volume that passes back and forth between individual planets within 6 hexes of each other. GURPS Far Trader did a decent job of showing this trade, but it is a bit cumbersome to use over a whole subsector.

Then, you trade cost for time. You may have to wait for a month or two for that ship going to the planet J-1 away. However, if you are patient (or not rich), then you can travel direct.

To continue with my age of sail analogy:

If you live in the Shetland Islands and you want to go to the Orkney Islands, you catch a tramp freighter going between them, agreed.

However, if you live in the Shetland Islands, and you decide to immigrate to New Zealand, there are no direct routes. You would probably catch the tramp freighter that calls on your island once a year. You would take that to your nearest small port, say Inverness. From there, you catch a slightly larger ship that travels to London or Southhampton. From there, you might find a significantly larger boat going "between sectors." You then sail for months until you get to New Zealand. Once you reach Auckland, then you might transfer to a local ship that carries to you to Christchurch, and then a local tramp freighter from Christchurch to Bluff at the very end of the South Island.

In Traveller, the equivalent trip (from the Spinward Marches to the Solomani Rim) would cost a fortune, and no one but the most wealthy or those on business could afford it.

Most people would grow up and die on the planet they were born on.

However, for those who can afford it, or have the need to travel, I think that is how it would happen.

 

[rinku]

And Terry is spot on that you can get unrefined fuel should you want to at A and B ports.

A version of hub and spoke will work because it's most efficient to use ships who are always jumping their maximum. A J-2 ship that makes a J-1 jump has 10% less payload space than the same sized J-1 ship.

So I expect there would be ships shuttling between most important worlds that are within 6 parsecs of each other, with local feeders. That puts the most people within two or three jumps of each other, even over a whole subsector.

And in fact isn't that the CT model? Trade route links with close worlds catered to by J-1 and J-2?

Local capacity to build and maintain higher jump drives may also be important here too. You would probably only want to run a J-6 link if one of the end points was a TL15 A port.

 

[Terry Mixon]

And Terry is spot on that you can get unrefined fuel should you want to at A and B ports.

If for no other reason than the big ports will have swarms of non-jump traffic in orbit moving cargo and such, as well as making runs elsewhere in the system. No way those craft would pay 5x for fuel. If they have it at all, which they must, then it would be an option for jump traffic as well.

 

[MasterGwydion]

And Terry is spot on that you can get unrefined fuel should you want to at A and B ports.

A version of hub and spoke will work because it's most efficient to use ships who are always jumping their maximum. A J-2 ship that makes a J-1 jump has 10% less payload space than the same sized J-1 ship.

So I expect there would be ships shuttling between most important worlds that are within 6 parsecs of each other, with local feeders. That puts the most people within two or three jumps of each other, even over a whole subsector.

And in fact isn't that the CT model? Trade route links with close worlds catered to by J-1 and J-2?

IMTU Class A and B Starports don't sell unrefined fuel. Why make 100Cr per ton when you can make 500Cr per ton. Since the largest starports can gather and refine fuel the most economically, they only sell Refined Fuel and pocket the extra money. It's a scam. Basically, of course people pay the higher costs for fuel, otherwise they don't really have access to the largest markets. The Big Boy Merchant Lines can use their own leverage, to buy fuel at Unrefined prices, but the Tramp Traders have no leverage.

 

[Terry Mixon]

IMTU Class A and B Starports don't sell unrefined fuel. Why make 100Cr per ton when you can make 500Cr per ton. Since the largest starports can gather and refine fuel the most economically, they only sell Refined Fuel and pocket the extra money. It's a scam. Basically, of course people pay the higher costs for fuel, otherwise they don't really have access to the largest markets. The Big Boy Merchant Lines can use their own leverage, to buy fuel at Unrefined prices, but the Tramp Traders have no leverage.

So they make all the non-jump traffic in orbit pay 5x? They would go out of business and then no movement of cargo.

At best, that’s an IYTU thing and shouldn’t apply to all games.

 

[rinku]

Then, you trade cost for time. You may have to wait for a month or two for that ship going to the planet J-1 away. However, if you are patient (or not rich), then you can travel direct.

To continue with my age of sail analogy:

If you live in the Shetland Islands and you want to go to the Orkney Islands, you catch a tramp freighter going between them, agreed.

However, if you live in the Shetland Islands, and you decide to immigrate to New Zealand, there are no direct routes. You would probably catch the tramp freighter that calls on your island once a year. You would take that to your nearest small port, say Inverness. From there, you catch a slightly larger ship that travels to London or Southhampton. From there, you might find a significantly larger boat going "between sectors." You then sail for months until you get to New Zealand. Once you reach Auckland, then you might transfer to a local ship that carries to you to Christchurch, and then a local tramp freighter from Christchurch to Bluff at the very end of the South Island.

In Traveller, the equivalent trip (from the Spinward Marches to the Solomani Rim) would cost a fortune, and no one but the most wealthy or those on business could afford it.

Most people would grow up and die on the planet they were born on.

However, for those who can afford it, or have the need to travel, I think that is how it would happen.

Good example.

That makes me wonder though...

Has there ever been much discussion about long range Low Passage travel?

You'd think that many people looking at a year long journey might prefer to just go cryo and wake up tomorrow where they are going to. If the Low Berth apparatus is designed to be modular and portable, which seems doable, the passenger just stays frozen and is unloaded and loaded between ships as required. Maybe require a Medic roll to oversee a transfer, but it wouldn't be as hard as reviving.

 

[phavoc]

This is really devolving into two separate questions - what would the 3% do, and what would the 97% do? The 3% will have the wealth to afford passage on a J-6 liner, but everyone else will have to travel the "old fashioned" way and take the slower liners. Wealth has always provided a method for faster travel once the technology became available. The early clipper ships were fast, expensive, but had enough of a market to exist and make a profit - but there was a limit. Same goes for early air travel across the pacific on the flying boats, transatlantic oceanic traffic, and also rail travel. Modern times we see a bit of a mix - travel fast in the Concorde or else travel luxuriously in slower subsonic aircraft. But ultimately credits will dictate which survives and which thrives. We saw Concorde's retired after the Air France accident because even with their very expensive tickets the Concordes were becoming unprofitable due to fuel costs. Could they have raised ticket prices to keep them? Perhaps.

Sageryne raises a good point - what would be the passenger traffic sub-sector vs sector-wide? The average person will not be able to afford J-6 travel across the Marches. And rare would the person be who would travel hundreds of light years for a vacation. Most people will spend their lives on a planet, perhaps traveling to a nearby one - but planets are big places and the average person will be hard pressed to visit all of their own planet, let alone other planets.

SOME travel will occur regardless - humans who have money or the spirit of adventure will do so. That makes some places profitable. But will a core dweller travel to the Marches? Unlikely for the masses, but possible for the individual. Even Megacorps would be hard-pressed to justify sending someone from the core to say the Solomani Rim or the Marches, let alone spending a year to travel one way from those points to each other. Why spend the time and money for something that would be quite questionable from a business perspective? Operating companies in each sub-sector (remotely) is quite different than some sort of hands-on.

I think what is more realistic is people who are "widely traveled" actually traveling no more than a few weeks in any direction from their home planet. So say a sub-sector at best. Beyond that you'd see the rare individual who's going beyond that.

People with more credits than common sense may travel for years on their own ships, or even on luxury liners. They have nothing better to do, but would be the exception rather than the norm. And economically, are the exceptions enough to justify a robust J-6 network?

 

[boggo2300]

Looking at the core rulebook, I’m not sure it’s saying that a class A or B Starport only has refined fuel. I’m inclined to read it as refined is available.

There is no reason why they wouldn’t have unrefined as well, too. That might not be a strict reading of the rules but it’s how I would play it.

Certainly how I do it, though I also include random modifiers on cost per ton of fuel at spaceports, so it's rarely Cr.100 for unrefined and Cr.500 for refined for those interested I use this for random variance
2d6 Price Differential Table:

Roll	Price Change
2	–10%
3	–8%
4	–6%
5	–4%
6	–2%
7	0%
8	+2%
9	+4%
10	+6%
11	+8%
12	+10%

 

[rinku]

Using refined fuel saves having to carry refining gear, and so more payload. I'm fairly sure proper big boy lines on major routes are just sourcing their own hydrogen and refining it themselves for their own ships' use anyway. Don't go by the retail at the pump prices that private ships have to put up with...

 

[MasterGwydion]

So they make all the non-jump traffic in orbit pay 5x? They would go out of business and then no movement of cargo.

At best, that’s an IYTU thing and shouldn’t apply to all games.

Why? Fuel lasts for weeks. All in-system traffic is buying next to no fuel anyhow, but they can all buy at spaceports, where they never have any reason to carry refined fuel. Most of those ships are going to be traveling between the starport and other spaceports, public and private.

Even a Galoof-class Megafreighter only uses 26 tons of fuel a week in system. 13,000Cr versus 2,600Cr a week is not going to break a ship carrying over 15,000 tons of cargo.

 

[Terry Mixon]

Why? Fuel lasts for weeks. All in-system traffic is buying next to no fuel anyhow, but they can all buy at spaceports, where they never have any reason to carry refined fuel. Most of those ships are going to be traveling between the starport and other spaceports, public and private.

Even a Galoof-class Megafreighter only uses 26 tons of fuel a week in system. 13,000Cr versus 2,600Cr a week is not going to break a ship carrying over 15,000 tons of cargo.

You do what you like in your universe, but it doesn’t seem realistic for the general one. I’ll stick with my assessment that major ports sell both kinds.

 

[Terry Mixon]

Using refined fuel saves having to carry refining gear, and so more payload. I'm fairly sure proper big boy lines on major routes are just sourcing their own hydrogen and refining it themselves for their own ships' use anyway. Don't go by the retail at the pump prices that private ships have to put up with...

It would be interesting to run the numbers and see if the lost space is worth it, though I agree that a dedicated line will have their own refueling center.

 

[rinku]

One ton of refining equipment at a facility can refine 20 tons of fuel a day. Chugging away for the minimum 14 days, but maybe 21 days before the ship returns lets that plucky ton of plant fill up a 280 ton to 420 ton fuel tank of refined fuel for it.

 

[MasterGwydion]

You do what you like in your universe, but it doesn’t seem realistic for the general one. I’ll stick with my assessment that major ports sell both kinds.

Then no one would ever buy refined fuel. Fuel refining is just too cheap and efficient. 16 hours traveling to 100D that is 13.3 tons refined per ton of fuel processor. Buy 6,650Cr worth of fuel for 1.330Cr, for each ton of fuel processor. 1.5 tons and your Free Trader never buys refined fuel again. He buys 10,000Cr of fuel each jump and only pays 2,000Cr. The fuel processors cost 50,000/ton. You installed 1.5-tons of fuel processor, 75,000Cr. You save 8,000Cr per jump and have your fuel processor paid off in 10 jumps and are now making extra money every month.

Edit - For the record, this is 0.5 tons more than the Free Trader has currently.

 

[rinku]

Numbers wise, it's mostly percentages. Above the size of small ships the hull requirements mostly scale up directly. So a J-6 ship has roughly twice the fuel, drives and engineer accommodations allocated as a J-3 ship does. It can out perform a J-3 ship doing two jumps for roughly the same costs - maybe a little lower per ton of payload delivered... but only if it is making full use of its jump number. It will be less efficient than a J-2 ship that's making two jumps to a port four parsecs away.

 

[Fluffy Bunny Feet]

So they make all the non-jump traffic in orbit pay 5x? They would go out of business and then no movement of cargo.

At best, that’s an IYTU thing and shouldn’t apply to all games.

For the non jump traffic it is a minor expense. Especially since the small craft book reduced the fuel usage for power plants. The standard shuttle is powered for 13 weeks by 1 ton of fuel. ~5.5 Cr/day. Nothing saying they won't sell the 1 ton and lesser lots for less if it is a big enough issue.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Numbers wise, it's mostly percentages. Above the size of small ships the hull requirements mostly scale up directly. So a J-6 ship has roughly twice the fuel, drives and engineer accommodations allocated as a J-3 ship does. It can out perform a J-3 ship doing two jumps for roughly the same costs - maybe a little lower per ton of payload delivered... but only if it is making full use of its jump number. It will be less efficient than a J-2 ship that's making two jumps to a port four parsecs away.

Yeah but if both ships are the same TL, then the J-3 is more efficient than the J-6 over 6 parsecs. Same with the J-2 being more efficient than the J-4. They use 15% and 10% less fuel respectively, therefore carrying more cargo. The J-6 and the J-4 have a one-month round trip, while the J-3 and J-2 have a two-month round trip, so the higher jump ships make the trip twice as often. Someone should really do all this math and see what comes out.

 

[Fluffy Bunny Feet]

They use 15% and 10% less fuel respectively, therefore carrying more cargo.

Making the ship significantly more expensive. Doesn't change the time but the price/dTon should rise significantly.