Updated Vehicle Handbook in the works

[Sigtrygg]

I've got the start of a wind table going for task DMs and risks of Critical Hits if vehicles do not get out of the wind (especially airships, not a good plan, Admiral Moffett...). Size gets complicated as usual by the difference between volume and surface area changes and whether or not you can 'turn into the wind' - great idea in an open field, not so much on a bridge or on a runway - you gotta point the way you gotta point. So right now, it's probably overly simplistic, but at least it gives you a framework. There is of course the density of the atmosphere to content with, and I have noted that in there.

I have not considered size as a factor, but if I did, then I'd need to consider mass variances as well and that's out of scope for this one. But I wanted to do more than the Core book's 'Bad weather gives you a DM-1' workup.

Are you checking the probability of airliners crashing due to weather during landings?

 

[Sigtrygg]

Honestly, I just think the Star Wars style ship just VTOL landing on a pad and then lifting off and zipping into space is kind of boring. I would like it to matter what the hull is designed for. I would like it to be a real cost to be capable of landing on a planet. I want most spacecraft to be built for space and optimized for space and if you want to be aerospace you have to pay for that.

And is show in Traveller artwork.

Granted, High Guard just has "streamlined" and doesn't distinguish between lifting bodies or airframes or other streamlined like some other versions of Traveller do (T5, MgT 2300).

AEH expands on this a bit.

The Core Rules say that Partially Streamlined "are ponderous and unresponsive, reliant on its thrusters to stay aloft". But that's manifestly not true, because lifters keep it aloft. The thrusters have nothing to do with it.

Unintended consequence - lifters now change ship operations.

Then it goes on to say that unstreamlined ships are completely unaerodynamic. But who cares? They aren't "Flying". They are just levitating with space magic. You don't need to be aerodynamic to levitate up and down.

And isn't the game so much better now

 

[Sigtrygg]

You're right, doing a slow elevator is uneventual. And it should be. If that probblem isnt solved, safe and secure. Then you cant be a space faring civilzation. The risk is too great to do so casually. And OTU requires it to be casual.

As casual as air travel according to some canonical statements.

Now if you wanna do a high speed chase in an ISS configured space ship, then yea, let all the windshear and drag play havic. Same with partially streamed line ones as well. Streamline can have pop up Ailerons, Elevators and Rudders to control itself, much like how landing struts are tucked away.

Or how about a bit of sci fi?

Hull control surfaces made out of configurable alloys?

Or control surfaces generated by magnetically and gravitically shaping "plasma windows"...

 

[Condottiere]

I don't think there is a canonical example, just that manoeuvre drive factor minus local gravity field times speed band.

Hull configured speed band has been ignored by Mongoose, for whatever reason.

Personally, I think structural strength and integrity is involved.

Supposedly, not a dispersed configuration's strong point.

 

[Vormaerin]

Yup, the setting has changed.

My problem is not with the setting changing. That's up to the setting's owner. It's neither here nor there as far as my campaign goes, so whatever.

My problem is changing the setting and the publisher not acting like the setting has changed. Whether it is making empty hexes readily passable or eliminating the point of distinguishing between refined & unrefined fuel or rendering hull types largely irrelevant, it is within their purview to do so.

I don't like it when these things are changed and then they don't implement the effects of these changes. That's just a pet peeve of mine.

 

[Vormaerin]

Personally, I think structural strength and integrity is involved.

Supposedly, not a dispersed configuration's strong point.

Wind breaks things when it hits something that friction prevents from moving with the wind, whether because it is stuck to the ground or some force is providing a countervailing motion. A ship lifting on lifters is not going to be fighting the wind unless there is something for the wind to push it into, like a building or a mountain. No one cares if you reach orbit in a straight line or diagonally because the wind pushes you a bit as you rise.

If there is a massive storm at low levels over the landing point, that's a potential problem. But it is a potential problem for any ship, whether it is streamlined or not. Safety regulations would still be you don't land your ship, whether it's a subbie or a flying crate stack.

This does not change the fact that lifters make using downports by unstreamlined ships perfectly reasonable contrary to the text. Once in a while, the weather is bad enough to be unsafe does not make that untrue.

 

[Condottiere]

If I comprehend Tee/Five correctly, dispersed structures have capped acceleration, presumably because there's a lot of stuff that will be torn off the hull, if not endanger it, if they go beyond that.

I would think hurricane force might have similar results.

I tend to think if you use a planetoid, which is unstreamlined, the hull is likely to stay in tact.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Personally, I think structural strength and integrity is involved.

Supposedly, not a dispersed configuration's strong point.

A 6g agility 6 (in old HG terms) is just as capable of withstanding high g evasive maneuvers, therefore structural strength is not the issue.

 

[Sigtrygg]

My problem is not with the setting changing. That's up to the setting's owner. It's neither here nor there as far as my campaign goes, so whatever.

Good point.

My problem is changing the setting and the publisher not acting like the setting has changed. Whether it is making empty hexes readily passable or eliminating the point of distinguishing between refined & unrefined fuel or rendering hull types largely irrelevant, it is within their purview to do so.

You mean like Strephon having a personal energy screen and a wafer recording of his memories and personality backed up just in case...

I don't like it when these things are changed and then they don't implement the effects of these changes. That's just a pet peeve of mine.

Or consider the consequences of the changes. A bit like the technology of the week in Star Trek never to be mentioned again.

 

[Vormaerin]

If I comprehend Tee/Five correctly, dispersed structures have capped acceleration, presumably because there's a lot of stuff that will be torn off the hull, if not endanger it, if they go beyond that.

I would think hurricane force might have similar results.

I tend to think if you use a planetoid, which is unstreamlined, the hull is likely to stay in tact.

So what? Flying through a hurricane in a streamlined ship is probably not a great idea either. No one is flying commercial airliners into Hurricane Helena for a reason.

The point is that lifters make normal atmospheric operations not dependent on "flight". Even if you don't have any kind of weather control, a levitating ship can float down to the surface on a path that accounts for weather. It's not trying to move at speed against the wind and you can plot a descent that accounts for the push of the wind so it isn't trying to resist either.

Lifters aren't needed to account for how Traveller ships work. The variable direction thrust on M-Drives lets them "lift off" and zoom away like you expect while being compatible with the streamlined/unstreamlined dichotomy because they have to actually "fly".

 

[Geir]

Are you checking the probability of airliners crashing due to weather during landings?

If someone is dumb enough to try and land during a hurricane, yes.

At lower wind velocities, yes, there is a negative for skill checks. But you wouldn't make a skill check for a routine task unless there was a reason to. Nobody dictates a check to take a crap, even though I've seen the effects of a failed roll and it's not pretty.

 

[Condottiere]

I suspect if you try that with a star destroyer, hurricane force is unlikely to move it's mass.

And you have to release the hydrogen bubble in a controlled manner.

 

[J. L. Brown]

Nobody dictates a check to take a crap, even though I've seen the effects of a failed roll and it's not pretty.

Condottiere: Please do not post a meme or picture illustrating this.

 

[Vormaerin]

At lower wind velocities, yes, there is a negative for skill checks. But you wouldn't make a skill check for a routine task unless there was a reason to.

That's the key thing that seems to get lost a lot. Task checks are for doing things when the situation is not normal. "Average" task checks (8+) are average difficulty for a dramatically significant operation in some kind of high stress situation, not the average difficulty of regular tasks using that skill.

 

[Condottiere]

Hmm ...

Too bad the Honorverse isn't illustrated, because we do have an instance where a shuttle activates it's shields inside a heavy cruiser.

Well, there is the chestburster scene in Alien.

 

[Sigtrygg]

If someone is dumb enough to try and land during a hurricane, yes.

At lower wind velocities, yes, there is a negative for skill checks. But you wouldn't make a skill check for a routine task unless there was a reason to. Nobody dictates a check to take a crap, even though I've seen the effects of a failed roll and it's not pretty.

Discussed at length during this video:

 

[agentwigggles]

At lower wind velocities, yes, there is a negative for skill checks. But you wouldn't make a skill check for a routine task unless there was a reason to. Nobody dictates a check to take a crap, even though I've seen the effects of a failed roll and it's not pretty.

SOmetime you know you're gonna blast ass, and there nothing you can do about it.

 

[tytalan]

hat factors? Your m-drive protects from wind sheer since you can match wind speed.
Yes it can because your hull is stronger than a modern MBT and you can maneuver at 1g away from the bad weather.
I am responding to you in the tone you adopt

What M-Drive? Your whole original statement was lifters alone now you include a M-Drive which I stated you needed.

 

[tytalan]

Every starship hull can withstand the stresses and strains of 1g acceleration and violent evasive maneuvers. A bit of weather is not going to affect them, and dispersed structure ships don't just have lifters.

Apparently you’ve never heard of archimedes

 

[Terry Mixon]

Hmm ...

Too bad the Honorverse isn't illustrated, because we do have an instance where a shuttle activates it's shields inside a heavy cruiser.

Well, there is the chestburster scene in Alien.

It brought up its wedge. Movement and shield combined. Bad Things™ happened.