Updated Vehicle Handbook in the works

It was MT that changed the amount of jump fuel needed, I changed it back to 10% per jump number and do the same for TNE.

With HEPLaR drives it means a jump 4 warship is going to also need a maneuvering fuel reserve - 10% is usually enough to get to a refueling point. For the civilian ships it doesn't really make much difference.
Warships need to maneuver in combat, ideally without draining their jump fuel. As well as patrol in system.

Overall, the design of T:NE ships suggests this conclusion is incorrect. Most ships carry more maneuver fuel than jump fuel. The Far Trader carries 24 G-hours of maneuver fuel and can get 16.8 more G-Hours using up its Jump Fuel.

I suppose if you assume everyone jumps everywhere the way Americans drive to cross the street, you don't need anywhere near that much maneuver fuel.
 
Because the presence of lifters alters the way in which ships can land and take off from a world. With lifters there is no reason any ship can not land, they just need to slow down to 200kph and then slowly descend to the surface. An hour later you are there.
Leave the lifters powered on and the ship doesn't need a landing pad.
Actually that doesn’t work because you still have to deal with an atmosphere and its currents. High winds can actually delay a current rocket’s launch and they are streamlined. You take something none streamlined and depending on the structure the wind can rip it to pieces or bash it into other objects.
 
Actually it does.
You adjust your orbital velocity to be equal to the wind speed, you now have zero velocity difference to deal with. Lifters and magic maneuver drives make landing trivial even for dispersed structures..
I would say that changes the setting somewhat.
 
Warships need to maneuver in combat, ideally without draining their jump fuel. As well as patrol in system.

Overall, the design of T:NE ships suggests this conclusion is incorrect. Most ships carry more maneuver fuel than jump fuel. The Far Trader carries 24 G-hours of maneuver fuel and can get 16.8 more G-Hours using up its Jump Fuel.

I suppose if you assume everyone jumps everywhere the way Americans drive to cross the street, you don't need anywhere near that much maneuver fuel.
Burn and coast becomes a bit more common for insystem maneuvering, much more Expanse like, but military ships that are 50% fuel can zip around a system, they only have to worry about fuel if they intend to jump...
 
Burn and coast becomes a bit more common for insystem maneuvering, much more Expanse like, but military ships that are 50% fuel can zip around a system, they only have to worry about fuel if they intend to jump...
This seems to be a very outdated conversation. If M-Drives are reactionless drives that only require power, as they are now, then all of this conversation is not relevant, unless you are arguing to make the game even more complicated to play by having to always track your fuel. Even if you add it back into the game, it is like Encumbrance in D&D. It existed, but pretty much everyone ignored it unless it got ridiculous.
 
Yes, I just expect that warships are going to want to be be able to burn fuel in a fight AND jump away if necessary.

In general, TNE ships have less cargo space and/or passengers because of the need for thruster fuel and how many things like lifters require actual space on the ship instead of magically being there as it is. That doesn't really matter for game play as you can just adjust shipping fees to compensate. I definitely prefer things to be explicit instead of implicit where possible.

I wonder if the Expanse books have good rules for determining travel times with coast and burn so non math oriented players can easily use them.
 
I couldn't care less what Mongoose says maneuver drives are like in their version of the Third Imperium, but if they now have lifters built into every m-drive - which they do according to SOM but not mentioned in CRB or HG - then ship opperations in the setting change a lot. The law of unintended consequences strikes again.

My Third Imperium games are based on the early adventures of CT, S:3, LBB:4, HG 79, TAS News items. My m-drive is based on null grav unit mass reduction and HEPLaR/ion engines.

Most of my Traveller gaming has never involved the Third Imperium, the Rebellion era (although I did run a Hard Times campaign that was great fun) or TNE (although again I did enjoy running a Star Viking campaign, once the PCs met them...). I probably have run a lot more T2300 than Third Imperium, and then the bulk of my Traveller gaming is in bespoke setting(s).
 
I sort of play in Charted Space, in that my campaigns are based in an extremely customized version of the Islands subsectors described in the original Trillion Credit Squadron (except with the systems built out with secondary worlds, space stations, etc). I've never actually run 2300, as I'm not particularly interested in Terrans or real world nationalism as a feature of my games. But I'm very fond of its ship stuff and its focus on surface/orbit operations and real space system travel. I've occasionally thought of switching to stutterwarp, but never actually done so.
 
So... if there is no firm ground at all - say "landing" on the surface of a lake, would the lifters disturb the surface of the lake? If above a sea, how high above the waves will the ship be (assuming calm weather)? This might make adventuring on a water world a bit more interesting.

This is partly covered in the 'Gravitics' chapter of the new Starship Operator's Manual; I'll quote an edited, condensed version below:
Lifters have often been called ‘grav plates with their polarity reversed’, which, while not technical language, is an acceptable summation of how low power, early lifters work.
It is a common misconception among many lay sophonts that gravity drives such as lifters, g-drives, and m-drives are ‘inertia-less’ and instead they violate Agaashir’s Law of Reciprocal Motion or, among the Solomani, Newton’s Third Law of Motion. This is incorrect; they very much do obey conservation of momentum.
As solid-state machinery, lifters have no moving parts but there are noticeable cues that they are in operation. Lower-tech lifters make a characteristic low-volume, high-pitched, faintly perceptible whine as the individual grav modules flick on-and-off at a high frequency. An always-present sign of lifter operation is a soft but persistent breeze emanating from beneath the vehicle. This effect explains the strange sensation when putting a hand or equivalent under a lifter in operation, for as it enters the field, it suddenly feels slightly heavier, as if wearing a lightly weighted glove. That is because the hand is helping the lifter stay aloft.
(...)
As a lifter vehicle climbs in altitude, it needs to increase its operational envelope size so that it encompasses enough mass to keep it aloft. In doing so, it increases its power expenditure; the bigger the envelope, the more power it draws to keep operational. To deal with this increased draw, the lifter can decrease the strength of its generated gravity field but that generates less lifting power for a given field size.
Larger power supplies, lifters manufactured from higher-efficiency grav modules and optimised field geometries can all increase the altitude a lifter vehicle can attain but even an idealised, perfectly efficient lifter will inevitably reach a maximum operational altitude of roughly one planetary diameter. Worlds with dense atmospheres have more available mass to push against beyond the surface, so they allow for a slightly higher operational ceiling; worlds with thin atmospheres allow slightly lower. Beyond this point, a lifter simply cannot generate enough lift to keep itself aloft.
(Disclaimer: The above if quoted from an earlier manuscript of the SOM)

So strictly speaking, the answer is 'Yes, but...'; if the lake is small, its entirety is probably within the operation envelope of the lifters' field, and the acceleration the mass within said field is subjected to is very very small, so no ripples.
If the ship was hovering over a huge lake though, there's a possibility – especially if it is hovering at a low altitude close to its surface and, therefore, is using a small envelope size with a slightly more perceptible acceleration – that the gravity gradient between the regions within the field and outside will create a kind of upside-down convective current, causing surface disturbances.
But these would be very small and would be hard to make out from the usual wavy-ness of large lakes.

If the ship were moving though, now that would create waves; but not because of the lifters, but due to the fact that any object (especially massive ones) moving inside an atmosphere will create a low-pressure zone behind them, and that would create a noticeable effect on the surface of the water if flying low, doubly so for denser atmospheres.

I couldn't care less what Mongoose says maneuver drives are like in their version of the Third Imperium, but if they now have lifters built into every m-drive - which they do according to SOM but not mentioned in CRB or HG - then ship opperations in the setting change a lot. The law of unintended consequences strikes again.

When writing the SOM under the mandate of 'try to reconcile the two currently published Traveller versions', the way we tried to reconcile their absence from Mongoose's Highguard was saying:
On any modern starship designed for planetary landings, lifters are included in the hull, much like landing gear. Normally integrated into the ventral hull, they are sometimes co-located with the landing gear bays but more often spread among the ventral surface. These lifter plates provide redundancy and a degree of fine control to allow the vessel to take off and land vertically with minimal difficulty, as well as to hover at any desired altitude [within their operation range].

It's a bit weaselly in that it leaves the presence or absence of Lifters in any given ship design as something to be arbitrated by the Referee, but given they're not part of the design sequence itself and SOM was meant as a largely system-agnostic, Chaterd Space-specific book of fluff, that was what we were able to do.

If one needs a heuristic to decide whether a ship has or hasn't lifters, personally I'd use the following:
  • If the ship it TL7 or lower, it automatically lacks lifers*.
  • If the ship is a non-gravity hull, it lacks lifters†.
  • If the ship is unstreamlined, it (probably) lacks lifters*.
*Subject to The Zeroth Rule: the referee can, at their table, simply say otherwise on a case-by-case basis
†This specific point is the only one I feel we should be a bit stricter on, because I rationalise the higher cost and power per-unit for the Gravity Hulls as being due to lifters, gravity generators, inertial compensators et al.

So using the above heuristic, the Beowulf-class Type-A would have Lifters, but a Type-L Lab Ship would not. The Azhanti High Lightning, despite being both partially streamlined and a gravity hull probably wouldn't include lifters as it isn't really meant to land on planetary surfaces, but if the Referee really wanted to have the AHL hovering ominously over a town in an adventure, they could rule that it does have them; so on and so forth.

Hopefully, if ever/when a new revision of the High Guard rules is made, it'll include lifters within its own design sequence, but for the moment this is what we have, such as things are.
 
Last edited:
They actually take up a fair bit of space in T:NE, both surface area and volume. Definitely a thing you skip on if landing on planets isn't important.
 
Non gravitated, one power point per ten tonnes.

Minimum, half a power point per ten tonnes.

Default manoeuvre drive factor/one, one tenth of a tonne, one power point, per ten tonnes.
 
I couldn't care less what Mongoose says maneuver drives are like in their version of the Third Imperium, but if they now have lifters built into every m-drive - which they do according to SOM but not mentioned in CRB or HG - then ship opperations in the setting change a lot. The law of unintended consequences strikes again.
Considering you state that most of your games are 2300 which doesn’t have gravity manipulation I’m not sure why you are pushing this. 2300 has its own modifications to both the VH and HG so pushing the change into the rest of the system tends to sound like your telling the rest of us who us the charted space setting that we are playing wrong.

TNE was almost another game entirely with the massive changes to the tech. There was a lot of 2300 imported into TNE and at the time that was a major complaint. It’s also the main reason for the multiple starship combat rule supplements done for TNE.

While it might not be your intention your constant telling everyone we have to change things to your way is not helpful
 
Actually it does.
You adjust your orbital velocity to be equal to the wind speed, you now have zero velocity difference to deal with. Lifters and magic maneuver drives make landing trivial even for dispersed structures..
I would say that changes the setting somewhat.
Wind shear! That and the direction of wind can actually change multiple times as you descend. Not so trivial at least according to the aerospace engineer friend of mine.
 
Considering you state that most of your games are 2300 which doesn’t have gravity manipulation I’m not sure why you are pushing this.
No, that's not what I said. Most of my games are Traveller, just not in the Third Imperium.
2300 has its own modifications to both the VH and HG so pushing the change into the rest of the system tends to sound like your telling the rest of us who us the charted space setting that we are playing wrong.
The T2300 game I am talking about was back in 1986, not the Mongoose version. Quite how you can be using the charted space setting right or wrong is beyond me.
TNE was almost another game entirely with the massive changes to the tech. There was a lot of 2300 imported into TNE and at the time that was a major complaint. It’s also the main reason for the multiple starship combat rule supplements done for TNE.
No there wasn't, in point of fact the original T2300 was system wise the MT/DGP task system converted to a d10 roll. I certainly never heard anyone complain that TNE was like T2300. Could you enlighten me as to what TNE took from T2300?
While it might not be your intention your constant telling everyone we have to change things to your way is not helpful
I'm not telling anyone to do anything, I am giving my opinion. Your constant snark is certainly not helpful.
 
Wind shear! That and the direction of wind can actually change multiple times as you descend. Not so trivial at least according to the aerospace engineer friend of mine.
Maneuver drive! You use it to match wind speed and direction while floating down on your gravitic parachute (lifter). Does your aerospace engineer friend know much about gravitic maneuver drives and lifters?
 
The intent for lifters is something like the flying palace on Pavabid or on Drinax, not something that had a full G or M drive. It does make sense for spaceships to have lifters for a few scenarios, including landing and taking off on high g worlds and skimming fuel from large gas giants.

Wind shear! That and the direction of wind can actually change multiple times as you descend. Not so trivial at least according to the aerospace engineer friend of mine.
Yeah, depending on the force of the winds it can certainly ruin your day. Traveller ships have mass and don't rely upon wings to generate lift (not to mention their occupants and cargo would have some protections from even noticing being tossed about due to the inertial dampening system/artificial gravity they have).

However I wouldn't consider it a total absolute shrugging off. A big enough storm is going to have a great deal of energy to toss even the mightiest of ships around - but most likely you'd not encounter them on a habitable planet.

Would be interesting to see a table that talks about this and provides some guidance on when you'd start to feel things. A 10ton flyer would feel it more than a 10,000 dton freighter (or at least I'd think so). The artificial nature of generating your own gravity field and the intertial dampeners make for a question about how it would or even should scale based on the mass of the vessel in question. Mother nature has a tendency to overcome many obstacles.
 
Maneuver drive! You use it to match wind speed and direction while floating down on your gravitic parachute (lifter). Does your aerospace engineer friend know much about gravitic maneuver drives and lifters?
I would say he does since he’s a fellow GM. Have you ever seen a parachutist get wrapped up in the parachute because of the wind? I unfortunately have. I’ve even seen a sail boat with its sails down and anchored get torn apart by its mast and rigging. Even the space shuttle had landing delays do to wind conditions. And considering only planetoids and dispersed structures are the only unstreamlined ship types in MgT2 and all others can land I can only guess you think such crafts can land thanks to lifters.
 
Back
Top