Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
High Guard is simple, probably because it's artificial.
Though, all over the place.
Though, all over the place.
Updated Vehicle Handbook in the works
- Thread starter Geir
- Start date
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
The chassis system has its merits for quickly assembling a vehicle Lego style, but a lot of the inconsistency is that there in no sub-layer to ensure standardisation.
So why not go the extra step and rate the power plant?
The work is for those of us who enjoy it. The Lego system is the tier above for people who just want good enough but also is consistent.
J. L. Brown
Cosmic Mongoose
I have (unsurprisingly, I suppose) been thinking about vehicles. I think 'Powerplant', 'Drivetrain', and 'Suspension' really does have possibilities -- but there is one essential element that has not really been discussed: Fuel.
Fundamentally, a 'Powerplant' converts 'Fuel' into 'Power' -- running out of / being short on / needing to find fuel is a fairly common story hook; and we are missing out on it. Powerplants take a specific fuel, at a specific rate, with specific losses (mostly less-per-TL), and produce 'Power'. That is great, but the actual fuel itself can be pretty abstracted. Fundamentally all we really need is a 1} a name (either a powerplant can use a fuel of this name or not), 2} TL it is avilable, 3} the number of 'fuel points' in one vehicle space of fuel, 4} cost per Vehicle space, and 5} any special hazards or other properties that will make for interesting situations. So an example might be:
1} Dried firewood, 2} TL 0+, 3} 5 fuel per kg, 4} 1 Cr per kg, 5} Only available on worlds with life;
1} Distilled Petrol, 2} TL 5+, 4} 34 fuel points per gallon, 4} 5 Cr per gallon, 5} Made from Petrochemicals; toxic; explosive
Sorry for the messy units on the fuel points per 'X'; the 'fuel points per vehicle space' crucially depends on the real volume of a vehicle space -- but once that is decided I think the pattern is pretty obvious. We could work up probably fifteen or sixteen into a short table & cover 90% of all common use cases. Charcoal, coal, ethanol, diesel, veggie oil, bunker fuel, uranium, LHyd, Anti-Matter, etc.
Powerplants use fuel, and produce power -- and waste some too. The waste could be just ignored if we like, but it is pretty easy to decalre it to be 'waste heat' and force vehicle designers include radiators or other systems to deal with it. Some rule sets (BattleTech, for example) make dealing with excess heat a major element, so maybe that could work for us, too -- or, like I said, we can skip it. For powerplants I think we can start with:
1} type, 2} TL available, 3} fuel(s) used, 4} fuel consumption rate (per power) at Idle/Cruise/Flank, 5} core size +power per space, 6} Cost per space, 7} any special or interesting characteristics. We should probably specify that the fraction of 'Power' which becomes available to run non-drive stuff must be designated when the powerplant is built -- but that is really more of a rule for designers than players, so maybe we can skip it. So one example might be:
1} Primitive Boiler, 2} TL 3, 3} Dried Firewood, Coal, 4} 60 / 80 / 90 fuel points per hour, 5} 3 spaces + 2 spaces per power; 6} 250 Cr/space, 7} 'Slow Warm-Up', etc.
Drivetrains turn power allocated to them from the powerplant into motive force -- again, with some losses associated with the type of drive. A single-expansion steam piston drive is less efficient than a multi-expansion steam piston (or a steam turbine). This is another source of waste heat, if we are doing that. A vehicle might have just one drivetrain (and no redundancy) or many drivetrains (and greater bulk and expense).
Suspension turns motive force into performance; 14 kW per tonne allows sluggish acceleration for a wheeled vehicle, and almost no movement for a vehicle with heavy tracks, and so on. I know, I know -- we are not tracking mass in most of Mongoose Traveller; I am not suggesting we start now. Rather, once the scale is settled we can define all this purely in terms of spaces. Again, a single suspension module is a single point of failure; some vehicles choose to have more. Suspension sets the rules by which a vehicle interacts with terrain, maximum amount of motive power which can be put to use, top speed at 'Idle', 'Cruise', and 'Flank Speed' , and so on.
Most of everything else is options; although we will need to handle odd 'combination' units. An Oar, for example -- a person is the powerplant, the handle is the Drive, the blade is the Suspension; Internal Combustion Engines are both Powerplant & Drive Unit, or they can be designed to produce 0 motive force & just generate electricity, acting like a pure powerplant. Sails are a bit of all three, but use wind as fuel, etc.
This is still crude early stages, but maybe I could work up some example tables over the next few days. I'm tired, and just realized I probably should have included 'Typical tasks & checks' on each of these -- the Boiler needs folks shovelling coal. G'night.
Fundamentally, a 'Powerplant' converts 'Fuel' into 'Power' -- running out of / being short on / needing to find fuel is a fairly common story hook; and we are missing out on it. Powerplants take a specific fuel, at a specific rate, with specific losses (mostly less-per-TL), and produce 'Power'. That is great, but the actual fuel itself can be pretty abstracted. Fundamentally all we really need is a 1} a name (either a powerplant can use a fuel of this name or not), 2} TL it is avilable, 3} the number of 'fuel points' in one vehicle space of fuel, 4} cost per Vehicle space, and 5} any special hazards or other properties that will make for interesting situations. So an example might be:
1} Dried firewood, 2} TL 0+, 3} 5 fuel per kg, 4} 1 Cr per kg, 5} Only available on worlds with life;
1} Distilled Petrol, 2} TL 5+, 4} 34 fuel points per gallon, 4} 5 Cr per gallon, 5} Made from Petrochemicals; toxic; explosive
Sorry for the messy units on the fuel points per 'X'; the 'fuel points per vehicle space' crucially depends on the real volume of a vehicle space -- but once that is decided I think the pattern is pretty obvious. We could work up probably fifteen or sixteen into a short table & cover 90% of all common use cases. Charcoal, coal, ethanol, diesel, veggie oil, bunker fuel, uranium, LHyd, Anti-Matter, etc.
Powerplants use fuel, and produce power -- and waste some too. The waste could be just ignored if we like, but it is pretty easy to decalre it to be 'waste heat' and force vehicle designers include radiators or other systems to deal with it. Some rule sets (BattleTech, for example) make dealing with excess heat a major element, so maybe that could work for us, too -- or, like I said, we can skip it. For powerplants I think we can start with:
1} type, 2} TL available, 3} fuel(s) used, 4} fuel consumption rate (per power) at Idle/Cruise/Flank, 5} core size +power per space, 6} Cost per space, 7} any special or interesting characteristics. We should probably specify that the fraction of 'Power' which becomes available to run non-drive stuff must be designated when the powerplant is built -- but that is really more of a rule for designers than players, so maybe we can skip it. So one example might be:
1} Primitive Boiler, 2} TL 3, 3} Dried Firewood, Coal, 4} 60 / 80 / 90 fuel points per hour, 5} 3 spaces + 2 spaces per power; 6} 250 Cr/space, 7} 'Slow Warm-Up', etc.
Drivetrains turn power allocated to them from the powerplant into motive force -- again, with some losses associated with the type of drive. A single-expansion steam piston drive is less efficient than a multi-expansion steam piston (or a steam turbine). This is another source of waste heat, if we are doing that. A vehicle might have just one drivetrain (and no redundancy) or many drivetrains (and greater bulk and expense).
Suspension turns motive force into performance; 14 kW per tonne allows sluggish acceleration for a wheeled vehicle, and almost no movement for a vehicle with heavy tracks, and so on. I know, I know -- we are not tracking mass in most of Mongoose Traveller; I am not suggesting we start now. Rather, once the scale is settled we can define all this purely in terms of spaces. Again, a single suspension module is a single point of failure; some vehicles choose to have more. Suspension sets the rules by which a vehicle interacts with terrain, maximum amount of motive power which can be put to use, top speed at 'Idle', 'Cruise', and 'Flank Speed' , and so on.
Most of everything else is options; although we will need to handle odd 'combination' units. An Oar, for example -- a person is the powerplant, the handle is the Drive, the blade is the Suspension; Internal Combustion Engines are both Powerplant & Drive Unit, or they can be designed to produce 0 motive force & just generate electricity, acting like a pure powerplant. Sails are a bit of all three, but use wind as fuel, etc.
This is still crude early stages, but maybe I could work up some example tables over the next few days. I'm tired, and just realized I probably should have included 'Typical tasks & checks' on each of these -- the Boiler needs folks shovelling coal. G'night.
agentwigggles
Cosmic Mongoose
A semi frequent question ask, is for bi pedal mechs. A lot of Battle Techs and sometime Gundum. While Traveller doesnt go that much anime, it can go towards BT.
Is it worth while to offer more for those kind of mech styling?
From the previous VHB one of the main things lacking of scaled weapons for such a thing.
Is it worth while to offer more for those kind of mech styling?
From the previous VHB one of the main things lacking of scaled weapons for such a thing.
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J. L. Brown
Cosmic Mongoose
It seems easy enough to do; most of that is a suspension type called 'legged', just choose the number of sets of legs. Even just one set allows movement; more is marginally faster & more stable. Most anime mecha use a drive called 'Myomer', but Solomani have built diesel, petrol, and electric motor powered legged vehicles. Defining performance is not too much of a stretch, either -- lots of existing games describe how well 'legged' propulsion performs vs 'wheeled' and 'tracked' and 'hover'.
Technetium 98
Banded Mongoose
Speaking of, actually - how tricky would it be to allow Titanfall-esque weaponry? Vehicle-scale weapons adapted to humanoid grips - but that'd probably need more detail in the manipulator arms than'd be desirable.
J. L. Brown
Cosmic Mongoose
I would just be scaling weaponry down from High Guard, and up from Robots and Field Catalog. Most vehicles don't have arms at all, but it seems straightforward to include that as a possible option; just scaling up arms from 'Robots'. Since it is not a book specifically about Robots, I would expect the treatment of manipulators to be a bit less detailed & have fewer options.
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
Hands down, if the new Vehicle Handbook uses the same chassis system, then I won't be buying it.
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
Most vehicle maintenance will not be done by their crews. Most people do not fix their own cars. Most companies so not fix their own trucks. etc...
ProfGrizzlyJon
Cosmic Mongoose
One of the things that I truly enjoyed from the Vehicle Handbook was the concept of Shipping Weight.
I was hoping for a reciprocal: Something as simple as a way to replace M-Drive with the locomotion type:
Wheeled takes up x% of tonnage at TL- for Cost y, categorized by speed bands (same as the M-Drive table). Include Power requirements (same as High Guard)
There could be three to five versions of the tech level, with rules for prototech/retrotech to cover the rest
All you need is the Land - Air - Sea - Space mode from page 174 of the World Bulder’s Handbook.
Please include hardsuits and walkers.
I have a softsuit idea (which is basically just something you hang slots on)
I was hoping for a reciprocal: Something as simple as a way to replace M-Drive with the locomotion type:
Wheeled takes up x% of tonnage at TL- for Cost y, categorized by speed bands (same as the M-Drive table). Include Power requirements (same as High Guard)
There could be three to five versions of the tech level, with rules for prototech/retrotech to cover the rest
All you need is the Land - Air - Sea - Space mode from page 174 of the World Bulder’s Handbook.
Please include hardsuits and walkers.
I have a softsuit idea (which is basically just something you hang slots on)
agentwigggles
Cosmic Mongoose
Dont worry, the '25 VHB will have new oppertunity for new missing place holders
agentwigggles
Cosmic Mongoose
Oh, this is semi frequent.
The disembarkment of vehicles from the cargo bay that was not placed away for shipping.
LIke you have a car in your cargo bay without its own vehicle bay. How long does it take to get it out of the cargo bay when the bay is empty and how long does it take when it full.
And same question when in vacuum. As it been asked about using the cargo bay to stow a fighter ship and then pooping it out when something spicy happens.
The disembarkment of vehicles from the cargo bay that was not placed away for shipping.
LIke you have a car in your cargo bay without its own vehicle bay. How long does it take to get it out of the cargo bay when the bay is empty and how long does it take when it full.
And same question when in vacuum. As it been asked about using the cargo bay to stow a fighter ship and then pooping it out when something spicy happens.
Dunno how its going to be done, but maybe they give classification to the vehicle body and the mission. general utility vehicle (jeep or humvee equivalent), cargo vehicle, armored car (basis for lots of lightly armored vehicles) and tanks. Each has small, medium, large and super. From that you should be able to build just about any vehicle other than say super-sized ones. And each class could have an upper limit on armor factor - at least for same tech range. A TL5 tank (think PzKW 4) has about same armor factor as a lightly armored car of today's TL. And armor would be limited by TL as well (or at least should be - there should never ever be a armor factor 15 TL6 vehicle). Aircraft could be similar, though watercraft are totally different (even LTA like dirigibles could be massive).
There's not much chance of making a system that's coherent and allows you to build a connestoga wagon and the heli-carrier from Shield. Consistency within areas of TL's are probably reasonable. Anything else is gonna have lots of challenges as I see it.
There's not much chance of making a system that's coherent and allows you to build a connestoga wagon and the heli-carrier from Shield. Consistency within areas of TL's are probably reasonable. Anything else is gonna have lots of challenges as I see it.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Technological level eight early fusion reactor, 1.4 cubic metres, one power point, fifty thousand credits; spacecraft scale.
Vehicle scale in millipower points.
Personal scale, micropower points.
Vehicle scale in millipower points.
Personal scale, micropower points.
So my question is do you want anyone but you gear heads to use this book. So now we are going to add the effects of different fuels and fuel use rates? Are we going to add modifications for different types of the same base fuel? Did you know that different types of wood were preferred for different applications of steam power so let’s add that aspect
. I know let just throw in as much detail as we can so it takes days to design a vehicle by hand. I hope Gier is ignoring you guys other wise this new book will be absolutely useless simply by being way to complex. This is a RPG not a engineering textbook
. I know let just throw in as much detail as we can so it takes days to design a vehicle by hand. I hope Gier is ignoring you guys other wise this new book will be absolutely useless simply by being way to complex. This is a RPG not a engineering textbookThis is one of this reasons I support fixing the chassis system. It’s actually a good ideal it’s just the execution that’s the problem. It can be done in a ways to fulfill just about any options and vehicles type without requiring an excel spreadsheet to use. Done right it’s a good balance between complexity and functionality.
I think some of you are forgetting the fact that the more details you add the more complex the required system is. And the more complex the lower both the use and the book sales. If you don’t believe me look up a RPG called Phoenix Command. Or look up the Laws series of D&D supplements they never broke the bottom 10% of the gaming market.
Another factor is the more details you add the larger the book. No you can’t just put in charts it’s a RPG book the so called fluff is an important part of the book. So we already have a good section of CSC that need to be rewritten and put in the book (tho I guess you can just reference the CSC pages and just put a chart in for this) plus new vehicle types trains for example, new vehicle operations and combat rules, and a whole new section of buildings and rules for them. Are you guys looking for a book or a series of books?
The chassis system as presented in the current vehicle handbook is a mess but the concept is solid and can be used as a basic for solid system that gives you a good solid selection of options and is solidly compatible with both Robots and Highguard. I know you probably can’t make the Batmobile for some Gundam this way but that’s not the purpose of this book.
Please think and don’t just spout venom about this post
Another factor is the more details you add the larger the book. No you can’t just put in charts it’s a RPG book the so called fluff is an important part of the book. So we already have a good section of CSC that need to be rewritten and put in the book (tho I guess you can just reference the CSC pages and just put a chart in for this) plus new vehicle types trains for example, new vehicle operations and combat rules, and a whole new section of buildings and rules for them. Are you guys looking for a book or a series of books?
The chassis system as presented in the current vehicle handbook is a mess but the concept is solid and can be used as a basic for solid system that gives you a good solid selection of options and is solidly compatible with both Robots and Highguard. I know you probably can’t make the Batmobile for some Gundam this way but that’s not the purpose of this book.
Please think and don’t just spout venom about this post
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
Or just make it Light, Standard, and Heavy. These would affect speed and max armor. If you wished, you could also apply a penalty or bonus to speed or simply require a differently-sized engine.
Armor should be a simple combination of Material, TL, and Chassis Type (see above). Conestoga Wagon? Standard Chassis. Armor? Wood, with whatever that entails (Volume, Price, and Max Armor). TL5 Tank? Heavy Chassis. Armor? Basic Steel. This keeps it the same system as Armor in HG. Same system, just extra armor types for the lower TLs. Also remember the chart about extra space being taken up by armor on smaller craft. The same could apply to Vehicle Armor as well. The more the systems are the same for construction, the greater the ease of use is for players and Referees.