Implications of the Firmpoint to Turret conversion rule

[AnotherDilbert]

Could you list some, as I've only seen one area where there is a difference and that was the shipping size which aligns with storage in a hangar.

The extremes are of course shipping sizes, 1 Space = 1 Dt for Heavy Aeroplane and 10 Spaces = 1 Dt for Airships.

 

[baithammer]

Both examples are displacement, as the airship has a gasbag that compacts far more than most structures while the heavy airplane has wings that don't compact as much.

 

[snrdg121408]

Hello all,

My apologies for the late reply, but I stumbled on this topic thread while searching for something else.

Quick background: I am an USAF brat that served for 20 years in the USN's submarine service.

I watch a lot of documentaries produced by stations like TLC, Discovery, National Geographic, Smithsonian. During one of the documentaries on modern combat aircraft one person described the attachment points as firmpoints and a different person called them hardpoints.

From the show my opinion is that a firmpoint is the same thing as a hardpoint which allows all sorts of stuff to be mounted on the aircraft.

CT LBB 5 HG 2e page 34:

"A small craft may mount the equivalent of one turret. In actuality, the mountings are probably rigid, and no actual turret is present. All computations, however, may assume that the craft carries one turret...."

IIRC small craft until MgT have been limited to three star ship/non-star ship weapons that are probably in rigid/fixed mounts or in a turret allowing the craft to mount a maximum of 3 weapons.

I have not been a fan of the requirements that small craft can have only three weapons and one hardpoint since most combat aircraft can mount a wide variety of ordnance, drop tanks, electronics, or anything someone wants to hang on the airframe. I prefer the HG 2e requirements over the ones in CT for small craft.

Based on the information gained from the documentary and the material on HG 2e page 23/PDF page 24 my conclusion is that a small craft firmpoint is the equivalent of a hardpoint.

HG 2e page 23/PDF page 24 allows Small craft hulls from 10 to < 35 to have 1 firmpoint, 35 - 70 tons to have 2 firmpoints, and, my correction, hulls > 70 to < 100 tons to have 3 firmpoints.

One small craft firm point can be upgraded to an 1 ton Single Turret that can mount 1 turret sized weapon. A 75 ton small craft could mount three single weapon turrets or per HG 2e page 24/PDF page 25 the three firmpoints could mount 9 weapons in a fixed position.

Firmpoints have further restrictions of medium range of less weapons are limited to Adjacent range, Long or greater ranges are treated as Close range which can not be increased. Weapon power requirements are reduced by 25% which I believe accounts for the reduced range bands. Sticking a barbette on a small craft requires two firmpoints versus 1 on hulls >= 100 tons.

I will admit to being very light on Space Combat but looking at the CRB 2e Chapter 8 Space Combat pages 155/PDF 154 through 163/PDF page 164. This means I am not sure how the requirements will alter the damage caused as a result of combat.

My gut feeling is that small craft engaging a target >= 100 tons has to travel through two or three range bands before getting into range. This gives the target time to hammer away on the small craft attacker with fairly good odds of knocking out the turrets if not destroying the small craft before it can attack.

Small Craft versus Small Craft will depend on the armor, weapons, and how the weapons are mounted. A 75 ton small craft with three single weapon turret versus a small craft with 3 firmpoint mounting nine weapons I think the hull with the three turrets could have them put out of action pretty quickly. Of course if one of my characters was handling the nine weapons the other small craft will probably be the winner.;-)

 

[AnotherDilbert]

One small craft firm point can be upgraded to an 1 ton Single Turret that can mount 1 turret sized weapon. A 75 ton small craft could mount three single weapon turrets or per HG 2e page 24/PDF page 25 the three firmpoints could mount 9 weapons in a fixed position.

Yes, a firmpoint is a small limited type of hardpoint.

No, a firmpoint can't mount 3 weapons, just 1 weapon, whether in a fixed mount or a single turret.

 

[snrdg121408]

Hello AnotherDilbert,

One small craft firm point can be upgraded to an 1 ton Single Turret that can mount 1 turret sized weapon. A 75 ton small craft could mount three single weapon turrets or per HG 2e page 24/PDF page 25 the three firmpoints could mount 9 weapons in a fixed position.

Yes, a firmpoint is a small limited type of hardpoint.

Yippee, I appear to be on the same page.

No, a firmpoint can't mount 3 weapons, just 1 weapon, whether in a fixed mount or a single turret.

HG 2e page 23/PDF page 24 Small Craft
"...A Firmpoint on a small craft is a fixed mount (typically forward-facing, but there is no requirement for this),..."

HG 2e page 24/PDF page 25 Turret and Fixed Mounts
"Up to three weapons may be mounted on a fixed mount (small craft have additional limitation),..."

HG 2e page 24/PDF page 25 states that a fixed mount can have up to 3 weapons installed and that small craft have additional limitations.

The limitations are per HG 2e page 23/PDF page 24 Small Craft:

"A weapon mounted upon a Firmpoint has the following changes applied to it.

1. Weapons of Medium range or less are reduced to Adjacent range.
2. Weapons of greater range are reduced to Close Range.
3. A weapon on a Firmpoint may not have its range increases beyond Close by any means.
4. Power requirements of weapons are reduced by 25% (rounding up).
5. Barbettes consume two Firmpoints."

There is no limitation that says a firmpoint which on a small craft is a fixed mount can only have one weapon.

Based on the information above a small craft firmpoint can mount up to three weapons.

Please provide a source that clearly states that a small craft firmpoint/fixed mount can only mount a single weapon?

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Please provide a source that clearly states that a small craft firmpoint/fixed mount can only mount a single weapon?

The whole firmpoint section is rather confusing.

The best source I can find at short notice is:

A Firmpoint, is just a hardpoint with a following modifications, as indicated by raw:
a) It can only hold 1 weapon, whether it is a single turret or a fixed mount.
b) Its range is severely reduced as per the rules.
c) It consumes only 75% of the power.

Note that the example smallcraft, e.g. the Heavy Fighter (HG, p102), only mount one weapon per firmpoint in fixed mounts.

 

[Jeraa]

Common sense should apply. Do you really think it was the intention for a 99 ton craft to mount 9 missile launchers when a 100 ton craft can only mount 3? The rule are badly written in some places. A small craft fixed mount hold a single weapon, not 3.

 

[snrdg121408]

Hello again AnotherDilbert

Please provide a source that clearly states that a small craft firmpoint/fixed mount can only mount a single weapon?

The whole firmpoint section is rather confusing.

The best source I can find at short notice is:

A Firmpoint, is just a hardpoint with a following modifications, as indicated by raw:
a) It can only hold 1 weapon, whether it is a single turret or a fixed mount.
b) Its range is severely reduced as per the rules.
c) It consumes only 75% of the power.

The time stamp of the quoted material is from Jan 05, 2016 at 1:59 AM and the author of the post as far as I can tell has not listed the source of the information being quoted was taken from.

The RAW I quoted is from my PDF copy HG 2e pages 23-24/PDF pages 24-25 downloaded Sept. 01, 2016.

Note that the example smallcraft, e.g. the Heavy Fighter (HG, p102), only mount one weapon per firmpoint in fixed mounts.

The heavy fighter from CT Supplement 9 Fighting Ships 1981 7th printing page 26 has one hardpoint with the provision for one triple weapons mount. The CT heavy fighter mounts three weapons which is the equivalent of one turret worth of weapons which are a beam laser, missile rack, and sandcaster. The weapons consume 1 ton of space and requires the beam laser uses 1 EP to operate

Th Hg 2e heavy fighter is, in theory, based on the CT heavy fighter. Because of MgT HG 2e rules closest that the HG 2e 50-ton can come to matching the CT version is two weapons the beam laser and missile rack.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

The time stamp of the quoted material is from Jan 05, 2016 at 1:59 AM and the author of the post as far as I can tell has not listed the source of the information being quoted was taken from.

Yes, that was during beta when we ironed out these things. Nerhesi was some sort of beta test coordinator, and as such an official source.

Later in the same thread you seemed to agree with one weapon per firmpoint:

From the available data a firmpoint has the same size and cost as a fixed mount but is limited to the installation of a one turret class weapon per firmpoint. A single barbette requires two firmpoints.

Th Hg 2e heavy fighter is, in theory, based on the CT heavy fighter. Because of MgT HG 2e rules closest that the HG 2e 50-ton can come to matching the CT version is two weapons the beam laser and missile rack.

Yes, that is the closest we can come with only one weapon per firmpoint, otherwise we could add the missing sandcaster. Hence we can only have one weapon per firmpoint. Which was my point.

 

[snrdg121408]

Hello Jeraa,

Common sense should apply. Do you really think it was the intention for a 99 ton craft to mount 9 missile launchers when a 100 ton craft can only mount 3? The rule are badly written in some places. A small craft fixed mount hold a single weapon, not 3.

I'm applying common sense based on the real world extrapolation of the military combat aircraft capabilities of carrying more that three weapons.

In HG 2e small craft firmpoints reduces the range of Adjacent or Close which means per CRB 2e page 161/PDF page 162 the missiles loss any Smart trait they possess.

If combat begins at medium range and the 100-ton hull is equipped with Smart missiles fires on the 99-ton small craft the flight time is immediate. The 100-ton hull get at least a DM of +1 to there attack for at two range bands before the 99 ton small craft can get into range to fire a missile. The 100-ton hull has a much better chance of blowing the 99 ton small craft in to bits and pieces that before the fighter has a chance of launching a 9 missile salvo.

If the 99 ton small craft makes it into Close and/or Adjacent range then it should have a chance to disable of blow the 100-ton hull to pieces.

Thank you your comment.

 

[Jeraa]

I'm applying common sense based on the real world extrapolation of the military combat aircraft capabilities of carrying more that three weapons.

That doesn't work with game mechanics. They aren't always the same. Besides, real world aircraft would fall under the vehicle creation rules (which don't limit the number of weapons), not the spacecraft rules. Also real world weapons would all be ground-scale in Traveller, which has their own rules for mounting on spacecraft (Which also doesn't limit their number as long as you have space).

In HG 2e small craft firmpoints reduces the range of Adjacent or Close which means per CRB 2e page 161/PDF page 162 the missiles loss any Smart trait they possess.

Missiles don't have a range, so the firmpoint range limitation do not apply. Missiles operate the same when fired from a small craft as they do any other ship. (Though it would be true that a small craft missile fired in a dogfight would lost the Smart trait, but one fired at a ship farther away wouldn't.)

 

[snrdg121408]

Hello again AnotherDilbert,

The time stamp of the quoted material is from Jan 05, 2016 at 1:59 AM and the author of the post as far as I can tell has not listed the source of the information being quoted was taken from.

Yes, that was during beta when we ironed out these things. Nerhesi was some sort of beta test coordinator, and as such an official source.

The PDF copy I have was released about eight months after Nerhesi's rule and was not included in the book. Apparently, the change in the rules where not incorporated into the newest PDF published. Until the material written by Nerhesi is either inserted into an updated copy of HG 2e or comes out in an errata document I'll stick with the HG 2e rules in my PDF copy.

Later in the same thread you seemed to agree with one weapon per firmpoint:

From the available data a firmpoint has the same size and cost as a fixed mount but is limited to the installation of a one turret class weapon per firmpoint. A single barbette requires two firmpoints.

Yes, once again I failed to proof read a comment so I screwed up. The firmpoint per HG 2e page 23/PDF 24 clearly states that a turret mounting a single weapon can be installed instead of a firmpoint/fixed mount that per HG 2e page 24/PDF page 25 can mount up to three weapons.

Th Hg 2e heavy fighter is, in theory, based on the CT heavy fighter. Because of MgT HG 2e rules closest that the HG 2e 50-ton can come to matching the CT version is two weapons the beam laser and missile rack.

Yes, that is the closest we can come with only one weapon per firmpoint, otherwise we could add the missing sandcaster. Hence we can only have one weapon per firmpoint. Which was my point.

No, the reason that was the closest in my opinion was to make the HG 2e heavy fighter as close as possible to the orignal.

 

[snrdg121408]

Hello Jerra,

I seem to have broken the quote feature on another forum.

In order to get small craft, starships, and non-starships/system ships the designers had to extrapolate from existing systems.

Now I agree that the game mechanics are what restricts the small craft capabilities. In CT LBB 5 HG 1979 fighters, a.k.a. small craft, were considered Major Weaponry. Then in CT LBB 5 HG 2e 1980 fighters got crippled.

Please provide the page that clearly states that missiles have no range bands?

I've been looking for the rule since I got my MgT books.

 

[Jeraa]

Hello Jerra,

I seem to have broken the quote feature on another forum.

In order to get small craft, starships, and non-starships/system ships the designers had to extrapolate from existing systems.

Now I agree that the game mechanics are what restricts the small craft capabilities. In CT LBB 5 HG 1979 fighters, a.k.a. small craft, were considered Major Weaponry. Then in CT LBB 5 HG 2e 1980 fighters got crippled.

Please provide the page that clearly states that missiles have no range bands?

I've been looking for the rule since I got my MgT books.

Surely you can see the part on the weapons table that says Range: Special? And that the missile table doesn't list a range band, but a Thrust score instead? The only limitation on missile range is found on page 161 of the core rulebook. Missiles have 10 rounds of fuel. Whatever it can reach in that time, it can hit. They do not have a defined range band, and so aren't affected by the firmpoint rules (which are based on range bands).

Edit:
And there is the following from the Element-class cruisers book:

Once outside the ship, the missile begins its transit to the target area. Depending on circumstances, this can be a continual high-rate burn on its thrusters or, more commonly, a series of lower-powered burns with periods of coasting in between. In theory, missile range is almost unlimited since the weapons can be set to coast for long periods and programmed to take advantage of a gravity well. Extreme-range missile operations of this sort are very rare, however.

Which doesn't really contradict page 161 of the core rulebook. It just somewhat clarifies that a missile has enough fuel for 10 full rounds of maximum thrust (so a 15g missile has a Thrust Point Total of 150, like how reaction drives work), as opposed to only working for a maximum of 10 round period.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Yes, once again I failed to proof read a comment so I screwed up. The firmpoint per HG 2e page 23/PDF 24 clearly states that a turret mounting a single weapon can be installed instead of a firmpoint/fixed mount that per HG 2e page 24/PDF page 25 can mount up to three weapons.

No:

Up to three weapons may be mounted on a fixed mount (small craft have additional limitations), ...

Three weapons per fixed mount, unless small craft.

I agree the limitation on small craft is not clearly defined in the rules, but it is clear in the examples provided, and further clarified on this forum: One weapon per firmpoint.

No, the reason that was the closest in my opinion was to make the HG 2e heavy fighter as close as possible to the orignal.

So you consider a fighter with two weapons closer to the original than a fighter with the same three weapons as the original? I cannot agree.

 

[snrdg121408]

Hello Jeraa,

Hello Jerra,

I seem to have broken the quote feature on another forum.

In order to get small craft, starships, and non-starships/system ships the designers had to extrapolate from existing systems.

Now I agree that the game mechanics are what restricts the small craft capabilities. In CT LBB 5 HG 1979 fighters, a.k.a. small craft, were considered Major Weaponry. Then in CT LBB 5 HG 2e 1980 fighters got crippled.

Please provide the page that clearly states that missiles have no range bands?

I've been looking for the rule since I got my MgT books.

Surely you can see the part on the weapons table that says Range: Special? And that the missile table doesn't list a range band, but a Thrust score instead? The only limitation on missile range is found on page 161 of the core rulebook. Missiles have 10 rounds of fuel. Whatever it can reach in that time, it can hit. They do not have a defined range band, and so aren't affected by the firmpoint rules (which are based on range bands).

Edit:
And there is the following from the Element-class cruisers book:

Once outside the ship, the missile begins its transit to the target area. Depending on circumstances, this can be a continual high-rate burn on its thrusters or, more commonly, a series of lower-powered burns with periods of coasting in between. In theory, missile range is almost unlimited since the weapons can be set to coast for long periods and programmed to take advantage of a gravity well. Extreme-range missile operations of this sort are very rare, however.

Which doesn't really contradict page 161 of the core rulebook. It just somewhat clarifies that a missile has enough fuel for 10 full rounds of maximum thrust (so a 15g missile has a Thrust Point Total of 150, like how reaction drives work), as opposed to only working for a maximum of 10 round period.

Yes, I see Special and there is a table that references thrust to range bands, unfortunately that is the extent of my understanding of missiles and torpedoes.

No, range bands are not only for firmpoints missiles, sandcasters, and torpedoes are the only weapons with a Range of Special.

I also have no idea of what Range Special means for sandcasters either.

I do not have a copy of the Element Class Cruiser book.

 

[Jeraa]

No, range bands are not only for firmpoints missiles, sandcasters, and torpedoes are the only weapons with a Range of Special.

I never said that range bands were only for firmpoints? The changes firmpoints make for ranges are based on range bands. Missiles don't have range bands. Therefore, missiles aren't affected by the range limitations for firmpoints.

I also have no idea of what Range Special means for sandcasters either.

I don't know the range either. But it should be clear that when something lists "Special", that it doesn't follow the normal rules. Ranged speace weapons normally have range bands. Therefor, anything that lists "Special" for their range doesn't follow those normal rules.

I do not have a copy of the Element Class Cruiser book.

Luckily for you I quoted the relevant section.

So, it seems clear that missiles fired from small craft and those fired from larger craft are the same. So again, does it seem like the intention was for small craft to mount 9 missiles while a very slightly bigger craft can only mount 3 missiles (which are exactly the same in all ways)? No. Firmpoints hold a single weapon each, either in a turret or as a fixed mount.

 

[snrdg121408]

Evening from the Pacific Northwest Jeraa,

No, range bands are not only for firmpoints missiles, sandcasters, and torpedoes are the only weapons with a Range of Special.

I never said that range bands were only for firmpoints? The changes firmpoints make for ranges are based on range bands. Missiles don't have range bands. Therefore, missiles aren't affected by the range limitations for firmpoints.

My apologies for not understanding what was indicated.

I also have no idea of what Range Special means for sandcasters either.

I don't know the range either. But it should be clear that when something lists "Special", that it doesn't follow the normal rules. Ranged speace weapons normally have range bands. Therefor, anything that lists "Special" for their range doesn't follow those normal rules.

No, for me to be clear there has to be something written not guessed at to be me which is obvious at this time.

I do not have a copy of the Element Class Cruiser book.

Luckily for you I quoted the relevant section.

So, it seems clear that missiles fired from small craft and those fired from larger craft are the same. So again, does it seem like the intention was for small craft to mount 9 missiles while a very slightly bigger craft can only mount 3 missiles (which are exactly the same in all ways)? No. Firmpoints hold a single weapon each, either in a turret or as a fixed mount.

The intention may have been to allow fighters to follow the CT LBB 5 HG 1979 rules allowing small craft a chance at taking out bigger targets. On the other hand the intention appears to make armed small craft less capable of taking out a bigger targets than CT LBB 5 HG 2e 1980.

At this point I concede to the rules as written in my PDF copy of HG 2e limit small craft firmpoints/fixed mounts to one weapon, but I do not agree with them. I also do not agree that the information provided by Nerhesi on Jan 05, 2016 at 1:59 AM is an official change since my copy was purchased 8 months later. Hopefully, Mr Matthew Sprange stops by with a clarification.

Thank you and AnotherDilbert for your replies.

 

[Condottiere]

1. Weapon systems affixed to fixed mounts take up no space, which in my mind seems a questionable interpretation of physics.

2. If you can stuff in three weapon systems in a one tonne turret, logic would indicate you'd only need a third as much for a single weapon system, plus overhead, so say that a single turret should be half a tonne.

3. Hardpoints are used to strengthen the hull at a specific point to support a large enough weapon systems, whose emplacement and/or usage would stress the hull.

4. We can assume that it requires a clean hundred tonnes of spacecraft to support a hardpoint, that means you can't cheat by using breakaway hulls.

5. Firmpoints support weapon systems that don't quite stress the hull as much, exceptionally you can join two of them that will, such as a modified barbette.

 

[snrdg121408]

Hello Condottiere,

1. Weapon systems affixed to fixed mounts take up no space, which in my mind seems a questionable interpretation of physics.

I agree that fixed mounts should have a tonnage requirement since the weapons themselves do not have.

2. If you can stuff in three weapon systems in a one tonne turret, logic would indicate you'd only need a third as much for a single weapon system, plus overhead, so say that a single turret should be half a tonne.

I took a look at the turret missile rack which has me a bit more confused.
HG 2e page 25/PDF page 26 "...Each missile rack holds 12 missiles (missile racks on firmpoints hold four missiles)...".
HG 2e page 29/PDF page 30 "...Twelve missiles consume 1 ton."

How can a 1 ton turret house 1 ton of missiles, the launcher, and feed mechanism?

3. Hardpoints are used to strengthen the hull at a specific point to support a large enough weapon systems, whose emplacement and/or usage would stress the hull.

In CT LBB 2 the purpose of a hardpoint is place holder to allow the installation of an 1 ton turret which takes no internal space until the turret is installed.

4. We can assume that it requires a clean hundred tonnes of spacecraft to support a hardpoint, that means you can't cheat by using breakaway hulls.

Depends on the size of the hull for example 200 ton breakaway hull splits off into 2 sections each being a 100 ton hull with 1 hardpoint. When all the 2 sections are combined the 200 ton hull has 2 hardpoints. If the 200 ton hull splits into an 120 ton section and an 80 ton section. The 120 ton section has 1 hardpoint and the 80 ton section would either have no weapons or only have 1 firmpoint versus the three allowed by the rules.

A 100 ton hull that splits into sections would not be armed or would only get 1 firmpoint.

5. Firmpoints support weapon systems that don't quite stress the hull as much, exceptionally you can join two of them that will, such as a modified barbette.

As far as I can tell, even with my new understanding, when a firmpoint mounts a turret the hull loses 1 ton of space and needs 1 power point to operate. Installed turret weapons with power requirements add them to the power requirement.

A barbette takes up 5 tons requiring 5 tons of hull plus the power requirement of the weapons installed.