High Guard Smaller Weapons

[swordtart]

Yes but the problem is that same launcher can also carry nuclear missiles. They see a missile rack they are going to assume that it’s carrying nukes it’s just common sense.

Missiles are ammunition. You can restrict the ammunition without making the launcher illegal. In the UK obtaining a shotgun licence isn't that difficult and it is a lower classification than a rifle (Class 1) which is lower than a handgun (usually banned). Single projectile ammunition (slug) for a shotgun requires a Class 1 license. Buying a rifle requires a Class 1 licence, buying ammunition for a rifle requires a class 1 license.

Just because you can put nukes in a missile launcher, doesn't mean you can obtain the nukes to do so. Even if you can obtain the nukes it doesn't mean you get to fire them with impunity. I would anticipate that a nuclear missile strike will generate a far bigger signature than a conventional missile strike. If you use them in transponder range then it is likely you will be found out and tagged as a person of interest.

Customs officers will routinely use Geiger counters to sweep missile bays and ammunition stores and maintenance crews in star ports also likely run inspections as part of their duties to the star port. Once you start carrying illegal weapons you are going to be relying on doing your own maintenance, and avoiding customs checks unless you want to be conducting smuggling operations just to bring your armaments to each system.

Since we are talking about Smaller Weapons in this thread by Tytalan's logic we have to ban any weapon that could use nuclear rounds as the assumption is that you would use nukes by default. From the CSC p181:

Nuclear rounds are only available for grenade launchers or other heavy weapons of 40mm or larger calibre at TL13 and above

Those limitations are not ideal as the Nuclear ammunition itself if only TL6 and I can't find that many weapons that are TL13 (so we must be talking about any weapon/ammunition that is bought at TL13 rather than it's earliest TL). Very few weapons actually specifiy calibre so we are forced to make assumptions. But there are plenty of weapons that would be in common use (like the grenade launcher) that would need to be banned if we were getting rid of anything that "could" use nukes.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

This is presumably a reference to Collapsing (californium) rounds from CT Striker:

CSC'22, p181:
NUCLEAR
Highly illegal on nearly every world, these warheads create a small nuclear explosion wherever they land, laying waste to everything nearby. Nuclear rounds are only available for grenade launchers or other heavy weapons of 40mm or larger calibre at TL13 and above.

Nuclear rounds are available in large calibers from TL6, but in small caliber cannon from TL13.

CT Striker, Book 2, p10:
Rule 39: Nuclear Rounds
...
_ _ C. Collapsing Rounds: Collapsing rounds are much smaller than standard [nuclear] rounds; this is made possible by using very unstable fissionable materials, such as californium, and by omitting the reliable but bulky detonation system found in standard rounds. Instead, they rely on impact with vehicle armor or a hard structure to collapse the hollow round quickly into a critical mass, resulting in unreliable performance.

CT Striker, Book 3, p40:
Collapsing rounds are available at tech level 13+.

CSC'16, p141 had this from TL6:

Which lead to some discussions about nuclear auto-cannon and even HMG ammunition, that might be usable in space combat...

 

[Condottiere]

What you'd keep your eye on, would be missiles that can screw on different warheads.

If the warhead is somewhat fixed, repurposing guidance and propulsion would be a might more difficult.

 

[ProfGrizzlyJon]

This is presumably a reference to Collapsing (californium) rounds from CT Striker:

Nuclear rounds are available in large calibers from TL6, but in small caliber cannon from TL13.





CSC'16, p141 had this from TL6:
View attachment 4115
Which lead to some discussions about nuclear auto-cannon and even HMG ammunition, that might be usable in space combat...

Those californium rounds were amazing!

 

[swordtart]

This is presumably a reference to Collapsing (californium) rounds from CT Striker:

Nuclear rounds are available in large calibers from TL6, but in small caliber cannon from TL13.

Thank you AD, that provides useful context. It looks like they rescinded the small calibre option in the current rules. Which at least makes the rather silly sounding nuclear HMGs go away. AC are still on the table though and as they are almost useful at space ranges might be credible for last ditch defence against boarding craft.

Of course all these small weapons might be like firing a .22 at a lion. You might scare it off, but you might just provoke it to destroy you entirely, so they are still a bit of a gamble and somewhat situational.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Thank you AD, that provides useful context. It looks like they rescinded the small calibre option in the current rules. Which at least makes the rather silly sounding nuclear HMGs go away. AC are still on the table though and as they are almost useful at space ranges might be credible for last ditch defence against boarding craft.

I believe the 40 mm reference excludes Light Auto-cannon (4/Dt), but allows Medium Auto-cannon (1/Dt). It's an exploit limiter.

Of course all these small weapons might be like firing a .22 at a lion. You might scare it off, but you might just provoke it to destroy you entirely, so they are still a bit of a gamble and somewhat situational.

At 6DD (vehicle scale) or 6D (space scale) it's more than a mosquito sting. It will even occasionally penetrate a fully armoured battleship (at silly short range).

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Those californium rounds were amazing!

They sure are, but potentially vulnerable to Point Defence.

 

[tytalan]

Missiles are ammunition. You can restrict the ammunition without making the launcher illegal. In the UK obtaining a shotgun licence isn't that difficult and it is a lower classification than a rifle (Class 1) which is lower than a handgun (usually banned). Single projectile ammunition (slug) for a shotgun requires a Class 1 license. Buying a rifle requires a Class 1 licence, buying ammunition for a rifle requires a class 1 license.

Just because you can put nukes in a missile launcher, doesn't mean you can obtain the nukes to do so. Even if you can obtain the nukes it doesn't mean you get to fire them with impunity. I would anticipate that a nuclear missile strike will generate a far bigger signature than a conventional missile strike. If you use them in transponder range then it is likely you will be found out and tagged as a person of interest.

Customs officers will routinely use Geiger counters to sweep missile bays and ammunition stores and maintenance crews in star ports also likely run inspections as part of their duties to the star port. Once you start carrying illegal weapons you are going to be relying on doing your own maintenance, and avoiding customs checks unless you want to be conducting smuggling operations just to bring your armaments to each system.

Since we are talking about Smaller Weapons in this thread by Tytalan's logic we have to ban any weapon that could use nuclear rounds as the assumption is that you would use nukes by default. From the CSC p181:

Nuclear rounds are only available for grenade launchers or other heavy weapons of 40mm or larger calibre at TL13 and above

Those limitations are not ideal as the Nuclear ammunition itself if only TL6 and I can't find that many weapons that are TL13 (so we must be talking about any weapon/ammunition that is bought at TL13 rather than it's earliest TL). Very few weapons actually specifiy calibre so we are forced to make assumptions. But there are plenty of weapons that would be in common use (like the grenade launcher) that would need to be banned if we were getting rid of anything that "could" use nukes.

Licenses don’t do you any good when a ship is coming from outside of the imperium. There is no boarder wall or patrol to prevent bringing a Nuke from elsewhere which makes it a totally different situation than your example unless your going to have customs board every trader with missile racks well away from the planet or station? Small arms can be check at the port so it’s a totally different situation. Your using a faulty argument since your comparing two totally different situations, with your small arms it’s no problem having people walk through a radiation detector before leaving the port possibly even before leaving your ship landing bay you can’t do that with a ship coming from space. Try actually comparing similar things next time

 

[MasterGwydion]

Licenses don’t do you any good when a ship is coming from outside of the imperium. There is no boarder wall or patrol to prevent bringing a Nuke from elsewhere which makes it a totally different situation than your example unless your going to have customs board every trader with missile racks well away from the planet or station? Small arms can be check at the port so it’s a totally different situation. Your using a faulty argument since your comparing two totally different situations, with your small arms it’s no problem having people walk through a radiation detector before leaving the port possibly even before leaving your ship landing bay you can’t do that with a ship coming from space. Try actually comparing similar things next time

I could see systems that had a local law requiring all ships with missile/torpedo launchers wait at the 100D limit until inspected.

Edit- Nuts! Now I am thinking of making this standard practice for all TL-9+ planets with high Law Levels

 

[Terry Mixon]

I could see systems that had a local law requiring all ships with missile/torpedo launchers wait at the 100D limit until inspected.

Edit- Nuts! Now I am thinking of making this standard practice for all TL-9+ planets with high Law Levels

They’d have no way of knowing a bad actor has missile launchers of he wanted to nuke them. It’s honor system and that isn’t a recipe for safety.

 

[MasterGwydion]

They’d have no way of knowing a bad actor has missile launchers of he wanted to nuke them. It’s honor system and that isn’t a recipe for safety.

I am also thinking of the general level of paranoia on high Law Level worlds.

 

[Arkathan]

Paranoia: You don't need a missile launcher. A stealthed heat resistant sheath with a warhead inside, a moderate complexity guidance system, Some compressed air for minor course corrections (mostly in the end phase) and minimal passive robotic sensors.
Aim the ship (with an altered transponder or one that is off) in the proper direction outside the 100D limit and drop it out a hatch. Then wait days/weeks/a month or two.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Paranoia: You don't need a missile launcher. A stealthed heat resistant sheath with a warhead inside, a moderate complexity guidance system, Some compressed air for minor course corrections (mostly in the end phase) and minimal passive robotic sensors.
Aim the ship (with an altered transponder or one that is off) in the proper direction outside the 100D limit and drop it out a hatch. Then wait days/weeks/a month or two.

So maybe even middle of the road Law Level worlds would do this.

 

[Condottiere]

Constructing an atomic fission bomb doesn't appear to be too difficult.

Since hydrogen fusion warheads appears to be possible for a dedicated effort by third world countries, supply is less of a problem, than system integration with guidance and propulsion.

If I had to guess, major metropolitan areas have nuclear dampers on standby on detection of detonation, which would neutralize radiation, though not the already released explosive force.

We know we can make them city buster size, it seems somewhat stupid to just build them to ten dice damage, when you might as well get hanged for a sheep as for a lamb.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I could see systems that had a local law requiring all ships with missile/torpedo launchers wait at the 100D limit until inspected.

Edit- Nuts! Now I am thinking of making this standard practice for all TL-9+ planets with high Law Levels

In the 3I setting that is the jurisdiction of the Imperium, not the local system, both the starport and the space to access it.

 

[swordtart]

Licenses don’t do you any good when a ship is coming from outside of the imperium. There is no boarder wall or patrol to prevent bringing a Nuke from elsewhere which makes it a totally different situation than your example unless your going to have customs board every trader with missile racks well away from the planet or station? Small arms can be check at the port so it’s a totally different situation. Your using a faulty argument since your comparing two totally different situations, with your small arms it’s no problem having people walk through a radiation detector before leaving the port possibly even before leaving your ship landing bay you can’t do that with a ship coming from space. Try actually comparing similar things next time

Sounds like a failure at your end.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Within the Imperium, yes. How about everywhere else?

 

[rinku]

Everywhere is going to be careful with nukes in civilian hands, just as they would with nerve gas and virus bombs. And despite arriving at pre-stellar tech levels, they aren't trivial to manufacture and store. Even the black market would be careful who they sell any to - no one wants a psycho to detonate a hydrogen bomb in their town.

I'd imagine the default is pretty much the same, but if there isn't anyone enforcing law I guess you can go there if you can find a seller.

 

[Condottiere]

Nanobots, and computer viruses.

One shuts down the technical infrastructure, and the other eats you up.

Both replicate.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Within the Imperium, yes. How about everywhere else?

I have no idea what the setting says, so whatever you want?