Imperial Navy Ship and Shipyard Sizes

[J. L. Brown]

Since I had the spreadsheet already set up, I had it tell me the numbers after refining the population as per the World Builder's Handbook. I did not tally any builds for government types 6 & 7 as I don't believe they would be capable of such. I capped the population on A pop worlds at 10,000,000,000.

Class A (all jump-capable ships (including capital ships),spacecraft, and small craft): 99,249,078 dtons. As discussed earlier, 39,500,000 dtons of that are on Mora, Trin, Glisten, and Rhylanor. As those four systems are the only TL-15 shipbuilders, that means the remaining 59,749,078 dtons are TL-12 builds.

Class B (spacecraft and small craft, no jump-capable builds): 48,714,023 dtons.

Class C (small craft only, no jump-capable builds): 49,853,970 dtons.

That all adds up to: 197,817,071 dtons of shipbuilding capacity for the Spinward Marches in peacetime.

That is a really nice approach. I believe that is a very good first-approximation, despite all the issues of 'what defines a Shipyard' in Traveller. Could you, perhaps, turn your spreadsheet towards the Trojan Reach? Knowing what each polity has as available capacity would be extremely useful.

There is a thread discussing the consequences, costs, and impacts of the 'Pirates of Drinax' campaign scenario 'Treasure Ship': https://forum.mongoosepublishing.com/threads/drinax-campaign-treasure-ship-spoilers.118986

In that thread, someone estimates that the Imperial fleet for the entire Sector is 31 ships; and that seems very low. Of course, they are relying on what has been detailed in published material, which might reasonably be considered only a fraction of the strength of ships actually in service.

 

[MasterGwydion]

That is a really nice approach. I believe that is a very good first-approximation, despite all the issues of 'what defines a Shipyard' in Traveller. Could you, perhaps, turn your spreadsheet towards the Trojan Reach? Knowing what each polity has as available capacity would be extremely useful.

There is a thread discussing the consequences, costs, and impacts of the 'Pirates of Drinax' campaign scenario 'Treasure Ship': https://forum.mongoosepublishing.com/threads/drinax-campaign-treasure-ship-spoilers.118986

In that thread, someone estimates that the Imperial fleet for the entire Sector is 31 ships; and that seems very low. Of course, they are relying on what has been detailed in published material, which might reasonably be considered only a fraction of the strength of ships actually in service.

MT Rebellion Sourcebook. page 27.

"FLEETS Each sector of the Imperium theoretically has a group of fleets numbering about 1000 ships. This number includes combat vessels such as cruisers, carriers, battleships, and some escorts; it does not include auxiliaries, support ships, and scouts."

"Numbered Fleets: The Imperium has about 320 numbered fleets (approximately one for each subsector within the empire). A numbered fleet, depending on its mission, may have between two and 10 squadrons amounting to between 50 and 200 ships. Numbered fleets are commanded by fleet admirals"

"Named Fleets: The Imperium has 28 named sector fleets which range in size from two numbered fleets to more than 20. In the standard naval organization of the Imperium, each sector has a named fleet which is composed of one numbered fleet from each subsector. The Alpha Crucis Fleet, which contains the 80th Fleet and the 313th Fleet, is little more than a standing support organization and a command structure that channels orders from the navy to the numbered fleets in the Alpha Crucis sector patrolling the border. The Corridor Fleet, actively engaged in border protection along the contested border with the Vargr in Corridor sector, is an active fleet with 16 numbered fleets under its command."

Does any of this help you? Please note that this does not include the Reserve Fleets.

 

[Vormaerin]

That is a really nice approach. I believe that is a very good first-approximation, despite all the issues of 'what defines a Shipyard' in Traveller. Could you, perhaps, turn your spreadsheet towards the Trojan Reach? Knowing what each polity has as available capacity would be extremely useful.

There is a thread discussing the consequences, costs, and impacts of the 'Pirates of Drinax' campaign scenario 'Treasure Ship': https://forum.mongoosepublishing.com/threads/drinax-campaign-treasure-ship-spoilers.118986

In that thread, someone estimates that the Imperial fleet for the entire Sector is 31 ships; and that seems very low. Of course, they are relying on what has been detailed in published material, which might reasonably be considered only a fraction of the strength of ships actually in service.

The Trojan Reach "Sector" is really only 2 1/2 subsectors. But that tally is still strange, since the Imperium tends to group ships into squadrons of 4 for organizational purposes. Having all those different 1s and 2s looks extremely ad hoc. The Reach is the far end of nowhere as far as the Imperium is concerned, but I don't think it's quite that haphazard.

 

[Condottiere]

Difference between administrative and field formations.

Though, originally, it was more Royal Navy Great War Grand Fleet.

 

[J. L. Brown]

"FLEETS Each sector of the Imperium theoretically has a group of fleets numbering about 1000 ships. This number includes combat vessels such as cruisers, carriers, battleships, and some escorts; it does not include auxiliaries, support ships, and scouts."

(snip}

"Named Fleets: The Imperium has 28 named sector fleets which ....

To some degree, the '28 named fleets' makes sense -- the Imperium has a naval presence in 28 sectors. But I would tend to have two named fleets in Reft, Corridor, and Glimmerdrift Reaches. What I would do, and what the Imperium would do, are obviously different things, though.

Also, if a full 'Named Sector Fleet' is ~1000 ships, then 1000 / 16 x 2.5 = 157 ships is proportionally in the correct ballpark for the Trojan Reach. I can accept that some of the naval assets have been pulled coreward to patrol the tense coreward border, but 31 ships still feels under-strength.

 

[Terry Mixon]

That is a really nice approach. I believe that is a very good first-approximation, despite all the issues of 'what defines a Shipyard' in Traveller. Could you, perhaps, turn your spreadsheet towards the Trojan Reach? Knowing what each polity has as available capacity would be extremely useful.

There is a thread discussing the consequences, costs, and impacts of the 'Pirates of Drinax' campaign scenario 'Treasure Ship': https://forum.mongoosepublishing.com/threads/drinax-campaign-treasure-ship-spoilers.118986

In that thread, someone estimates that the Imperial fleet for the entire Sector is 31 ships; and that seems very low. Of course, they are relying on what has been detailed in published material, which might reasonably be considered only a fraction of the strength of ships actually in service.

Here you go. I added Deneb and Reft to the already calculated Spinward Marches and now Trojan Reach. Hope this helps.

EDIT: I updated the file because I meant to include the population totals on the summary page. I also added the allegiance data to help break the data down.

 

[MasterGwydion]

To some degree, the '28 named fleets' makes sense -- the Imperium has a naval presence in 28 sectors. But I would tend to have two named fleets in Reft, Corridor, and Glimmerdrift Reaches. What I would do, and what the Imperium would do, are obviously different things, though.

Also, if a full 'Named Sector Fleet' is ~1000 ships, then 1000 / 16 x 2.5 = 157 ships is proportionally in the correct ballpark for the Trojan Reach. I can accept that some of the naval assets have been pulled coreward to patrol the tense coreward border, but 31 ships still feels under-strength.

Try going the other direction. Each subsector fleet has between 2 and 10 squadrons equaling 50-200 ships. The Trojan Reach has roughly 4 subsectors since Vastus and Usher are administered from Tobia. That give you between 200 and 800 ships with roughly 250 of them being combat vessels such as cruisers, battleships, carriers and some of the larger escort ships. The numbers don't add up because one is based on a weighted average (1,000 combat ships per sector is an average across the Imperium) and the other is listed as a range of ships per subsector. Either way, you are looking at between 8 squadrons on the low end to 40 squadrons on the high end. My guess is that it is somewhere around 24 squadrons or 500 Combat ships of 5,000-tons+

 

[J. L. Brown]

Here you go. I added Deneb and Reft to the already calculated Spinward Marches and now Trojan Reach. Hope this helps.

Thank you very much!

I added my own breakdown to summarize the capabilities of the various polities in the Trojan Reach.

Allegiance Population Class A Starports Class B Starports Class C Starports Class D Starports Class E Starports Class X Starports Base Shipbulding Capacity Class A Shipyard Capacity Class B Shipyard Capacity Class C Shipyard Capacity Imperial 68,432,904,930 12 23 7 10 5 2 0 51,243,247 21,831,605 20,404,091 9,007,551 51,243,247 Aslan 65,108,581,850 14 66 12 6 14 0 0 20,621,068 1,858,311 17,677,882 1,084,875 20,621,068 Florian 22,535,463,510 6 9 5 4 3 0 0 19,226,941 9,360,540 9,536,425 329,976 19,226,941 Glorious Empire 2,300,070,150 3 7 1 1 1 0 0 429,660 330,595 65 99,000 429,660 Belgardian 3,480 0 0 1 0 2 0 0 3 0 0 3 3 Senlis 4,601,000 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 4,170 0 3,600 570 4,170 Strend 10,800,005,000 0 2 0 1 0 1 0 920,000 0 920,000 0 920,000 Kingdom of Drinax 60,090,000 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 69,086 86 69,000 0 69,086 Imperial Client 10,160,600,100 2 5 2 1 1 0 0 106,970 0 106,200 770 106,970 Non-Aligned 31,331,660,950 15 37 6 14 14 7 0 20,247,279 682,284 19,487,918 77,077 20,247,279

There is also one Zhodani Client which I neglected, it has a Class-E starport.

 

[Terry Mixon]

Thank you very much!

You're welcome.

 

[Terry Mixon]

Thank you very much!

I just updated the file because I forgot to include the population totals on the summary page.

 

[Terry Mixon]

I have to say the numbers surprised me a bit. I expected Deneb to be ahead of the Spinward Marches. It's not even close. Maybe the random element of expanding the population numbers didn't serve them well.

 

[J. L. Brown]

Third Imperium holdings in the Trojan Reach only include one TL-15 Class A shipyard: Tobia. There are nine or ten worlds with Technology Levels of 12 to 14, but not all of them have Class A shipyards. The Florians and Aslan both extend outside the Trojan Reach, and it is probably reasonable to include the Reach-side of Reft sector in the Trojan Reach area for fleet purposes.

 

[Terry Mixon]

Thank you very much!

I added my own breakdown to summarize the capabilities of the various polities in the Trojan Reach.

Allegiance Population Class A Starports Class B Starports Class C Starports Class D Starports Class E Starports Class X Starports Base Shipbulding Capacity Class A Shipyard Capacity Class B Shipyard Capacity Class C Shipyard Capacity Imperial 68,432,904,930 12 23 7 10 5 2 0 51,243,247 21,831,605 20,404,091 9,007,551 51,243,247 Aslan 65,108,581,850 14 66 12 6 14 0 0 20,621,068 1,858,311 17,677,882 1,084,875 20,621,068 Florian 22,535,463,510 6 9 5 4 3 0 0 19,226,941 9,360,540 9,536,425 329,976 19,226,941 Glorious Empire 2,300,070,150 3 7 1 1 1 0 0 429,660 330,595 65 99,000 429,660 Belgardian 3,480 0 0 1 0 2 0 0 3 0 0 3 3 Senlis 4,601,000 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 4,170 0 3,600 570 4,170 Strend 10,800,005,000 0 2 0 1 0 1 0 920,000 0 920,000 0 920,000 Kingdom of Drinax 60,090,000 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 69,086 86 69,000 0 69,086 Imperial Client 10,160,600,100 2 5 2 1 1 0 0 106,970 0 106,200 770 106,970 Non-Aligned 31,331,660,950 15 37 6 14 14 7 0 20,247,279 682,284 19,487,918 77,077 20,247,279

There is also one Zhodani Client which I neglected, it has a Class-E starport.

That’s a good breakdown. It’s useful seeing things categorized like that for people playing in the area. Thanks.

 

[Vormaerin]

tbh, I would be flat out shocked if they were building any Imperial Navy vessels at Tobia. It's at the far end of nowhere, is relatively vulnerable, and politically impotent on the Imperial scale. Military vessels built there are probably only colonial warships.

There's a full write up of how the Reft Sector fleet elements report in the rift sourcebooks. Pretty sure it's controlled by Deneb, but I'll have to double check when I get home.

 

[J. L. Brown]

I would tend to think that Tobia, being so remote, would be expected to provide for its' own defense. Therefore, more naval production at Tobia because no reinforcements can be expected to arrive. I agree that their production would tend to skew more towards 'more but smaller' units, because having plenty of maneuver-elements is important for showing the flag and keeping the peace.

 

[Vormaerin]

It could work that way, but military construction contracts are a lot more about politics than practicality. And, also, the shipyard would have to have enough business to keep it economically useful. YMMV.

 

[Terry Mixon]

Thank you very much!

I added my own breakdown to summarize the capabilities of the various polities in the Trojan Reach.

Allegiance Population Class A Starports Class B Starports Class C Starports Class D Starports Class E Starports Class X Starports Base Shipbulding Capacity Class A Shipyard Capacity Class B Shipyard Capacity Class C Shipyard Capacity Imperial 68,432,904,930 12 23 7 10 5 2 0 51,243,247 21,831,605 20,404,091 9,007,551 51,243,247 Aslan 65,108,581,850 14 66 12 6 14 0 0 20,621,068 1,858,311 17,677,882 1,084,875 20,621,068 Florian 22,535,463,510 6 9 5 4 3 0 0 19,226,941 9,360,540 9,536,425 329,976 19,226,941 Glorious Empire 2,300,070,150 3 7 1 1 1 0 0 429,660 330,595 65 99,000 429,660 Belgardian 3,480 0 0 1 0 2 0 0 3 0 0 3 3 Senlis 4,601,000 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 4,170 0 3,600 570 4,170 Strend 10,800,005,000 0 2 0 1 0 1 0 920,000 0 920,000 0 920,000 Kingdom of Drinax 60,090,000 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 69,086 86 69,000 0 69,086 Imperial Client 10,160,600,100 2 5 2 1 1 0 0 106,970 0 106,200 770 106,970 Non-Aligned 31,331,660,950 15 37 6 14 14 7 0 20,247,279 682,284 19,487,918 77,077 20,247,279

There is also one Zhodani Client which I neglected, it has a Class-E starport.

I updated the original spreadsheet to have some of the data, though not at this level. That might make it more useful to others.

 

[Vormaerin]

Third Imperium holdings in the Trojan Reach only include one TL-15 Class A shipyard: Tobia. There are nine or ten worlds with Technology Levels of 12 to 14, but not all of them have Class A shipyards. The Florians and Aslan both extend outside the Trojan Reach, and it is probably reasonable to include the Reach-side of Reft sector in the Trojan Reach area for fleet purposes.

The REFT Sector does not have a named (Sector) Fleet and only has 1 numbered (Subsector) Fleet (in Vestus Subsector). In lieu of a Named Fleet, the Reft Sector has a administrative unit called Reft Sector Command.

Reft Sector Command is responsible for patrolling Vestus, Macon, and Usher subsectors and maintaining the transrift route through the Island subsectors. The small bit of Imperial space on the other side of the Rift is handled by a detachment of the Verge Sector Fleet.

Reft Sector Command has a small number of light cruiser class ships, a larger number of destroyers, and a fairly substantial number of corvettes and patrol vessels. It does not have any battleships and is rarely assigned a heavy cruiser (and it would be an obsolescent one if so). Typically, the majority of the heavy assets would be in Vestus sector. Usher, the Islands, and Macon generally get a pair of destroyers and some number of corvettes at any given time. One of the Reft Sector cruisers will sweep through these subsectors from time to time. Reft Sector Command reports to the Domain Grand Admiral in Deneb.

The Vestus subsector fleet is basically a flotilla built around a couple cruisers (currently a newish light cruiser and an ancient strike carrier) and a collection of escorts and patrol vessels.

 

[Vormaerin]

I would tend to think that Tobia, being so remote, would be expected to provide for its' own defense. Therefore, more naval production at Tobia because no reinforcements can be expected to arrive. I agree that their production would tend to skew more towards 'more but smaller' units, because having plenty of maneuver-elements is important for showing the flag and keeping the peace.

The Imperial Navy's procurement process is handled by the Admiralty, partially based on procurement requests from the Grand Admirals of the Domain level commands. The Admiralty decides what to build, where to assign it, and where it should be built.

The decisions on all of these things, but especially on WHERE to build ships are determined by the following factors:

1) Tradition. Shipyards with established production tend to get more contracts, because they have the trained personnel, equipment, and logistics for doing so.
2) Lobbying by the Megacorps who do most of the shipbuilding, based on where they need/want more work for their shipyards.
3) Lobbying by the Nobles of the Imperial Moot to favor their home regions.
4) Ease of deployment. They do build ships of any given batch in multiple shipyards to spread around the experience and make regional deployments easier.

Keep in mind that the Imperium is not going to normally order like 4 destroyers from some shipyard. That's not efficient. If they need 80 new destroyers, they are going to build 20 at 4 different shipyards, not 4 at 20 different shipyards. An occassional order of 4 ships isn't going to sustain a shipyard and its personnel, logistics links, etc. They'll have to ramp up to meet the requirements, then be done. This is why all the US submarines are built at 3 shipyards and the carriers are all (or almost all) built at one shipyard.

Your campaign may be different, but by default the Duke of Tobia is heavily disadvantaged in pretty much all of these categories. There's no reasonable chance that Tobia, being out on the ass end of the Imperium, is going to be a long established naval shipyard that gets mentioned by default. There could be heavy megacorp investment in Tobia, but most discussion of the region seems to focus on local regional corps. Seems unlikely that GsbAG and General Products (the two most heavily into starship construction megas) have a ton of assets in the region.

The Duke of Tobia also suffers from his "Sector" being about 1/5th the size (and hence number of proxy votes) of most of his ducal rivals lobbying with the Admiralty and the Moot. It is difficult to imagine that he has the same level of influence as the Duke of Deneb or Gushemege, for instance.

Finally, consider redeployment. Say the Admiralty wants to build 20 destroyers in the Domain of Deneb. Which is more likely? Building them at Tobia and shipping 16 of them to the Marches? Or building them in the Marches and sending 4 to Tobia.

I am quite sure the Duke of Tobia is building colonial military vessels for himself and for all the surrounding worlds that can afford them. I would be very surprised if Tobia was chosen to be the shipyard for a production line of Imperial Navy ships.

But this is fiction, so you can (and should) do whatever makes the most fun for your campaign.

 

[Vormaerin]

btw, just as an example, the CT adventure The Kinunir includes the following Library Data entry:

General Shipyards: The largest starship manufacturer in the Regina subsector, with yards at Regina, Efate, and Pixie. Originally a military contractor, General no longer produces ships for military use, instead concentrating on the more lucrative commercial market. The yard at Regina is capable of producing ships up to 5000 tons, while the subsidiary yards at Pixie and Efate are limited to 600 tons per ship, and devote most of their attention to annual maintenance.

While this was written when 5000 dtons was the largest ship out there, it serves as a useful example of how just because a starport is class A, it does not necessarily have unlimited production capacity. Although Regina, Pixie, and Efate are all class A starports with naval bases, all the capital ships are built at Regina, while the 'adventure class ships' are all that can be built at the other ports.