Imperial Laws of War

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

I am after comments and ideas on how other GMs handle some aspects of the Imperial Laws of War (in a 3I setting, obviously).

As I understand it the Imperium allows different members to fight wars with each other, so long as the collateral damage is limited, and nuclear weapons (and other WMDs?) are not used.

However, I have always thought the idea a bit dodgy, on a number of grounds, viz,
1.if the Imperium is not able to offer stability, then there is little benefit in belonging to it.
2.interplanetary wars disrupt trade, invitably damage law and order, and are likely to create piracy (so will not be tolerated for long).
3.the Imperial nobility are responsible to the Emperor, can be removed, and often do not rule the worlds they are the nobles for (so should not be driven by the violent passions that might lead to war, and are less likely to be beguiled into war as a way to increase personal power), instead operating as a layer of the civil service.
4. one of the principles of Imperial Law is that space beyond the 10 diameter limit is owned by the Imperium, surely allowing independant military activiy in that area undermines Imperial sovereignty?

So, with all that in mind, if a conflict developed I imagined that the IN would intervene pretty quickly and enforce a ceasefire, while local and sector nobles would negotiate a solution.

And all that seemed to work quite well in, say, the Spinward Marches.

Then I read the Deneb Sector, where sector politics seem to be driven by threatened or real wars between powerful noble houses, with the Imperium generally tolerating such activities. The various nobles seem to have direct rule of most worlds (or, at least, those worlds are happy to support the nobility's self-aggrandisement), and are allowed to develop substantial navies (though banned from using capital ships) and engage in "good" wars. The political system seems chaotic and damaging to Imperial stability and trade. Why allow it, especially when the Imperium seems strong enough to prevent such turbulence?

So, have I mis-understood Denebian politics, or even Spinward March politics?

All comments appreciated.

Egil

 

[Faelan Niall]

I would agree with all your points if the Imperium had instant communication (and even then some of them are just not economically viable options). It does not, and because of the limitations imposed by this lack it is necessary to have a loose hand in ruling it. Those further away from the center of power must be trusted to handle more, those closer need to handle less. The purpose of the Imperial Navy is to remain alert for outside invaders, not worry about a couple of Nobles blowing off steam. If things get out of hand they can come in and settle things down with greater ease once the opposing sides have exhausted themselves. It makes no sense to get involved with every little transgression, because the costs would be phenomenal, not to mention it would affect your real readiness to deal with an outside foe.

 

[F33D]

4. one of the principles of Imperial Law is that space beyond the 10 diameter limit is owned by the Imperium, surely allowing independant military activiy in that area undermines Imperial sovereignty?

One problem. The planetary gov has sovereignty within 10 diameters NOT the Imperium... Other than using nukes, widespread slavery & the planets share of taxes due...

 

[dragoner]

Chaos is inherent in any system, in the snapshot of the Imperium circa 1105, it was originally a system running down ala many empires in SF. One could say it's vibrancy but not so much, beyond the Imperium providing spectacle and being a rallying point, two main pillars are the megacorps and powerful planets. Using our modern fractured world, little wars and the threat of war are big money; plus having little wars sharpens the sword as a threat to both external and internal forces. The little wars were outlets for other pent up social forces in the old explanation and were basically that one could sorch the earth, just not salt it so nothing else can grow. Enforcement is an odd question, no constitution nor representative body to keep the nobles in line and one could see enormous abuses of power.

 

[Easterner]

The Impie situation is analogous to Dark ages when nations were non-existent or weak ala Holy Roman Empire. So rival 'barons' or whatever fight among each other but have to keep it reasonable enough not to draw the #I's close attention.

Dinom would be a good example. If corp hires Mercs to take place back they need avoid massacres and WMD's. Otherwise 3I would be forced to intervene.

ACROSS THE BRIGHT FACE
CRYSTALS FROM DINOM

I recall an adventure/article on a Spinward world that engaged in such endless internecine war the Navy on their own sent in the Marines, greased anyone who objected and rule to this day a planet that hates their guts, but at least they don't fight each other.

 

[locarno24]

One thing to bear in mind is that a lot of wars are between different nations on a Balkanised world.

As long as no nukes are used and no stray missiles hit startown or the highport, that's none of the Imperium's business. For that matter it may even be good for trade as various defense megacorps hawk 'modern' weapons to the locals.

Other than that, as noted, it's a matter of discrete skirmishes. Hiring a 200 ship mercenary battlefleet and setting course for another planet through imperial space results in the sector fleet turning up and being very ticked off with you.

Having a couple of your armed traders bushwhack a ship belonging to another planet's government is still illegal, but the odds of the imperium being able to prove you've done it are relatively low - especially if the other side is busy doing the same thing to you and doesn't want to draw attention to the conflict for fear of punitive action against both sides. Equally, if it's a megacorp or (vaguely) democratic world, they're probably fighting for an economic driver rather than just 'noble dignity' and hence limited collateral damage is good - unless that's the driver (a less ethically scrupulous megacorp* might hire some mercs to try and collapse the economy of a world so the corp can buy up everything to 'help').

Hence, for interstellar rivalries, raids and special ops missions are far more common.

* i.e. most of them if no-ones looking.

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

Thanks for the very helpful replies.

One thing I notice is that the subsector dukes are able to issue "Letters of Marque and Reprisal", i.e. legalise piracy. Seems bizarre inside the Imperium.

O.k, so the Imperium allows the nobles to keep substantial military forces, which are mainly used for shows of force against other nobles (and will provide a useful Colonial Fleet reserve in the event of the a major war). The Imperium also turns a blind eye if these forces sometimes shoot each other up, when there is little collateral damage. Anything beyond that seems too destabilising. Whilst I can see that the time lags imposed by jump travel would tend to make enforcement difficult at times, it is very much in the Imperium's interest to clamp down very hard on offenders, removing nobles and noble houses when they are engaged in open warfare, the threat of which should keep the nobles fairly peaceful, if enforced.

Another thing, allowing substantial noble navies in the Deneb sector seems to strenghthen the power of the nobles vis a vis the worlds they represent, probably leading to many more being effectively run by the nobles, as opposed to being self -governing.

Any thoughts?

Thanks

Egil

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

4. one of the principles of Imperial Law is that space beyond the 10 diameter limit is owned by the Imperium, surely allowing independant military activiy in that area undermines Imperial sovereignty?

One problem. The planetary gov has sovereignty within 10 diameters NOT the Imperium... Other than using nukes, widespread slavery & the planets share of taxes due...

Sorry, I wasn't clear, I meant that the Imperium would want to forbid independant military action beyond the 10 diameter limit, whatever happens within in is up to the planet (with certain provisos). By doing so, of course, the scope for military conflict within the Imperium between noble houses or planetary governments would be greatly curtailed.

Egil

 

[F33D]

One thing I notice is that the subsector dukes are able to issue "Letters of Marque and Reprisal", i.e. legalise piracy. Seems bizarre inside the Imperium.
Egil

I would be bizarre if it was for inside the Imperium. It isn't though. It is like the power of the US Congress in that respect. It isn't so one State can attack another States ships.

 

[dragoner]

Sorry, I wasn't clear, I meant that the Imperium would want to forbid independant military action beyond the 10 diameter limit, whatever happens within in is up to the planet (with certain provisos). By doing so, of course, the scope for military conflict within the Imperium between noble houses or planetary governments would be greatly curtailed.

Egil

Except when one looks at Vilis/Garda Vilis, which is defacto forbidden colonization going on.

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

Sorry, I wasn't clear, I meant that the Imperium would want to forbid independant military action beyond the 10 diameter limit, whatever happens within in is up to the planet (with certain provisos). By doing so, of course, the scope for military conflict within the Imperium between noble houses or planetary governments would be greatly curtailed.

Egil

Except when one looks at Vilis/Garda Vilis, which is defacto forbidden colonization going on.

As I understand it (from the Spinward Marches book, pp 78, 79) the world of Tanoose chose to become a possession of Vilis, and ended up getting re-named, so the original take over was not an invasion, but the choice of the world government. That seems to have happened about 1000 years ago, when the situation in the Marches was pretty open, and I am not clear if Tanoose had been a member of the Imperium, or even that the Imperium existed when Tanoose chose to become a posseion of Vilis.

Egil

 

[dragoner]

Sorry, I wasn't clear, I meant that the Imperium would want to forbid independant military action beyond the 10 diameter limit, whatever happens within in is up to the planet (with certain provisos). By doing so, of course, the scope for military conflict within the Imperium between noble houses or planetary governments would be greatly curtailed.

Egil

Except when one looks at Vilis/Garda Vilis, which is defacto forbidden colonization going on.

As I understand it (from the Spinward Marches book, pp 78, 79) the world of Tanoose chose to become a possession of Vilis, and ended up getting re-named, so the original take over was not an invasion, but the choice of the world government. That seems to have happened about 1000 years ago, when the situation in the Marches was pretty open, and I am not clear if Tanoose had been a member of the Imperium, or even that the Imperium existed when Tanoose chose to become a posseion of Vilis.

Egil

I'm actually going off the adventure I bought 30 years ago (Broadsword), maybe it has changed.

Cheers,
Rob

 

[Condottiere]

I'd speculate that a similar situation exists within Aslan, Solomani and Vargr borders.

Allowing tensions to explode into armed violence for a short period within a contained area, may be preferable than allowing them to continue at a slow boil, and perhaps setting off a chain reaction right across the sector.

Also, no football league.

 

[CosmicGamer]

1.if the Imperium is not able to offer stability, then there is little benefit in belonging to it.

What is stability? Is stability every planet being a police control state with imperial authorities on every corner making every world uniform in government, education and technology?

Perhaps stability is in the eye of the beholder and in this case perhaps the stability of the overall Imperium is prioritized over local stability. Perhaps the Imperium would rather have, even encourages (probably behind the scenes), warlike people fight amongst themselves or even their neighbors instead of grouping together to rebel against the Imperium.

2.interplanetary wars disrupt trade, invitably damage law and order, and are likely to create piracy (so will not be tolerated for long).

Disrupt trade? Mostly between the two fighting worlds but then again isn't free trade the right to not sell to someone as much as it is the right to sell? A long cold war with some behind the scenes state sponsored piracy between these worlds could be more disruptive.

I see an increase in trade as these worlds need to support the war effort and then the post war reconstruction effort.

If the war of these worlds gets to the point where they disrupt trade going through the Imperial starport of their systems, that's when the Imperials might step in.

4. one of the principles of Imperial Law is that space beyond the 10 diameter limit is owned by the Imperium, surely allowing independant military activiy in that area undermines Imperial sovereignty?

You'll have to elaborate on this "independent military activity". Fighting pirates? I believe local system forces can "operate" all the way out to the 100d limit without much issue.

 

[dragoner]

The Imperium outright conquered territory, even if other worlds joined voluntarily; the whole pacification campaigns, and establishment of the Archduchies. Some worlds get bombed to near un-inhabitability: http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Ilelish_Revolt

 

[phavoc]

Megacorps and other civilian groups also tussle with military-style engagements that are tolerated by the Imperium.

As I see it in general the Imperium is ok with small brush wars and tit-for-tat attacks between nobles, nations, planets and corps. It's only when it becomes a threat to stability, the death toll rises, or commerce is threatened that the Imperium is likely to step in.

Even the letters of marque and such have to be carefully used. The seizure of a neutral ship or two might be overlooked, but when the independent merchants complain the Navy may have to do something. And they always have the biggest guns and the most powerful ships. You can't win against them so it's best to keep your conflicts off their radar. Though even then some officer or bureaucrat may step in and decide that the conflict needs to be stopped.

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

One thing to bear in mind is that a lot of wars are between different nations on a Balkanised world.

As long as no nukes are used and no stray missiles hit startown or the highport, that's none of the Imperium's business. For that matter it may even be good for trade as various defense megacorps hawk 'modern' weapons to the locals.

What if the Belters get mad?

The scenario is a greedy Megacorp based on this planet puts the squeeze on the belters located further out in the system, their are a bunch of independent miners that the megacorp wants to drive out of business so they could have exclusive access to the mining resources of this belt, so their is a war, the World has a lot of resources and a population of hundreds of millions to back them up, the belters are only a few million, and so they attach a maneuver drive to one of the large asteroids and push it onto a collision course with the planet and the city upon which the Megacorp is based. No nuclear weapons are used, but millions die as the asteroid hits! Now that is a ghastly scenario don't you agree?

 

[phavoc]

What if the Belters get mad?

The scenario is a greedy Megacorp based on this planet puts the squeeze on the belters located further out in the system, their are a bunch of independent miners that the megacorp wants to drive out of business so they could have exclusive access to the mining resources of this belt, so their is a war, the World has a lot of resources and a population of hundreds of millions to back them up, the belters are only a few million, and so they attach a maneuver drive to one of the large asteroids and push it onto a collision course with the planet and the city upon which the Megacorp is based. No nuclear weapons are used, but millions die as the asteroid hits! Now that is a ghastly scenario don't you agree?

(a) it's still a weapon of mass destruction. the belters just lost whatever they were trying to gain.

(b) unless the asteroid had defenses, it's easily intercepted, destroyed or just nudged off course. And if it had defenses, and the planet was that much larger, then they'd probably be able to destroy or turn it away. It's not like they wouldn't see it coming.

They would be better off nudging a smaller nickel-iron asteroid onto a collision course and 'ooh, it musta been nature'. It might still not get there (asteroid detection would be pretty basic in a space-faring society), but who knows if they got lucky...

 

[Rick]

If you really wanted to do it right, first thing to do would be to use high-velocity pebbles to take out the satellite systems, then 'nudge' an asteroid onto the right impact trajectory before replacements could be brought online. Oh and smash up a couple of really big asteroids in the belt so that an appropriate 'cause and effect' is clearly visible to any pesky investigators.

 

[phavoc]

Wouldn't do much good. In a civilization that has easy access to space replacing the satellites with cheap microsats and putting them back in orbit would take days. Not to mention as soon as you destroyed the satellites they'd know they were facing an armed enemy from space and prepare for further action.