Hot Rodding is dead?

[AnotherDilbert]

You quoting a different edition of the game, That’s like using a 4ed D&D rule to determine a 5ed rule. Again mongoose has said that their T2 does not necessarily follow the same rule as other editions so your statement is false!

When in doubt, look at other editions for hints. When a rule is copied verbatim from an earlier edition, in this case MgT1, it's a strong hint that the system isn't suddenly completely different.

As for paragraph I can tell you’ve never done any technical writing and don’t understand English grammar very well.

You would be wrong...
But, certainly, I'm no expert in English grammar or even a native speaker.

But even I can understand that:

Major refits cover changes in power plant, manoeuvre or jump drive, as well as changes to spinal mounts or launch facilities (such as launch tubes).

means that swapping drives isn't a minor refit.

Those items covered under a major refit cannot be increased in size but they can be reduced.

means that drives can't be increased in size.

We have shown you examples in the game you deny them with no actual support!

Oh, yes, show us a detailed description of a refit in MgT2 under this rule...

Note that the Seeker is described as a refitted Scout (w/o changing drives), the A2 Far Trader is only described as a "modified" Beowulf.

 

[MasterGwydion]

The 3rd imperium doesn’t really have client states and again it’s cheaper to refit than it is to build new

The 3rd Imperium has literally hundreds of Client States.

The Trojan Reach has 11.
Spinward Marches has 24.
Deneb has 14.
Corridor has 18.
etc...

 

[Condottiere]

And even then, they become second tier units, or are assigned to the reserve.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

While I’m a native speaker and had to do many technical papers in college. Maybe just maybe a native college educated speaker might know more about the English language than someone whose not a native speaker

Oh, in college, so not for real?

As an occational writer of technical documents in English for an international audience, I would say that if the meaning of your text changes dramatically with a single paragraph break, you have failed spectacularly...

 

[AnotherDilbert]

It’s actually says that some are modified after being built that is by definition a refit in the English language.

Refit:

to put a ship or a building, etc., especially a public or industrial building, back into good condition by repairing it or adding new parts:

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/refit

Improved functionality is not the same thing as a refit. Replacing a perfectly good, working drive with a higher performance drive is not necessarily a refit.


The rule even helpfully defines what a refit is, divided into major refits and minor refits, and even what you cannot do (as a refit).

There are two different types of refit that can be used. Major refits cover changes in power plant, manoeuvre or jump drive, as well as changes to spinal mounts or launch facilities (such as launch tubes).
...
Minor refits are changes to any other components aboard the ship, such as weapon mounts or staterooms.

Armour and other parts of the ship integral to the hull (such as configuration or reinforced structure) cannot be changed under any refit. Those items covered under a major refit cannot be increased in size but they can be reduced.

So, no, any modification is not a refit under this rule, or by definition.

And another source for hints is real life in which ships get refitted with bigger engines all the time.

We can apparently even do this:

That is not a refit under this rule.


House rule whatever you want, but don't blame it on the rules.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Dilbert. I am just looking for clarification here. Are you saying that the refit rules are irrelevant? You seem to be saying that you can make any changes to a ship that you want as long as you do not call it a refit. Is that what you are saying?

 

[Sigtrygg]

The referee can do anything via rule zero.
Mongoose have examples of ships that they don't have rules for and or do not follow their own rules as written.

The rules in HG2022 are very clear
The podular element class cruiser can not be built using HG2022 rules
A type A can be modified into an A2 spec but it is not called a refit.

"There are two different types of refit that can be used. Major refits cover changes in power plant, manoeuvre
or jump drive, as well as changes to spinal mounts or launch facilities (such as launch tubes)...
Minor refits are changes to any other components aboard the ship, such as weapon mounts or staterooms....
Armour and other parts of the ship integral to the hull (such as configuration or reinforced structure) cannot be
changed under any refit.*
Those items covered under a major refit**(cannot be increased in size but they can be reduced.
Other components*** can be increased in size if there is tonnage available."

*So we know what components can not be changed at all
** we know what can be changed by a major refit, namely power plant, manoeuvre, jump drive, spinal mounts, and launch facilities,
and that they can not be increased in size.
*** obviously then refers to items covered by the minor refit

Later in HG we find:

"many free traders are either modified to this specification or are built this way from new."

no mention of refit, the ship is modified. We don't have rules for this sort of modification, so it has to be house ruled.

So someone needs to write rules for modifying ships beyond what a refit can achieve and stick them in a JTAS and/or the next iteration of HG. Which should also give rules for building podular ships.

We know within the setting ships can be extensively modified and even made podular, but at present the rules are missing.

 

[Condottiere]

The spacecraft components listed are not controversial to be considered major refits.

It's whether they can be increased in size during that major refit, would be.

 

[Sigtrygg]

The rule is clear that during a major refit, which is a term reserved for only certain ship systems, the size of the component may not be increased.

"Major refits cover changes in power plant, manoeuvre or jump drive, as well as changes to spinal mounts or launch facilities (such as launch tubes)...
Those items covered under a major refit**(cannot be increased in size but they can be reduced."

 

[MasterGwydion]

By modern day definitions, increasing size of the power plant, drives, etc would be considered a rebuild, not a refit. I had a problem with refit not being the term used for everything. When I looked it up online, I learned that Mongoose is using the word "refit" correctly. What We are wanting rules for, according to dictionaries, is a rebuild, not a refit.

 

[Sigtrygg]

I think rebuild is a good word for what the intention is. The setting allows for ship modifications over and above what the rules for refits permit. We can go with the term "modification" or adopt the word rebuild.

I would say the TNE frankenships are definitely rebuilds...

Can you change a ships configuration - not with a refit but you can with a rebuild...
can you change the size of the drives, - not with a refit but you can with a rebuild...

 

[MasterGwydion]

I think rebuild is a good word for what the intention is. The setting allows for ship modifications over and above what the rules for refits permit. We can go with the term "modification" or adopt the word rebuild.

I would say the TNE frankenships are definitely rebuilds...

Can you change a ships configuration - not with a refit but you can with a rebuild...
can you change the size of the drives, - not with a refit but you can with a rebuild...

I would agree with the term "rebuild" since the term "modified" would seem to cover both refits and rebuilds as both are "modifications"

 

[AnotherDilbert]

So someone needs to write rules for modifying ships beyond what a refit can achieve and stick them in a JTAS and/or the next iteration of HG. Which should also give rules for building podular ships.

We know within the setting ships can be extensively modified and even made podular, but at present the rules are missing.

Sure, and until then we just house rule it.

I would just make it expensive enough that it's not normally done...

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I would agree with the term "rebuild" since the term "modified" would seem to cover both refits and rebuilds as both are "modifications"

Agreed, "modified" is used for e.g. tech advantages, so best not used to avoid confusion.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Sure, and until then we just house rule it.

I would just make it expensive enough that it's not normally done...

I vote for Geir. He is pretty damn good at writing rules and he already has a ton of experience writing construction rules. I could probably spend a day or two at it and come up with something workable, but usually what Geir comes up with off the top of his head is better than what I come up with days of research...lol...

Edit- Also a thought for Geir. Are there refit rules for vehicles in the new VH? Can you increase their size? As an example, turning a ground car into a limousine? Or adding armor to a vehicle that didn't originally have it? Both of those things are currently against the rules for spaceships.

 

[Sigtrygg]

So let us get to work considering what the parameters for a rebuild are, we could even write a campaign around it

You have an existing ship, it could be brand new, it could be old and battle dameged, it could even be derelict.

Hull - streamling, configuration armour
some of these rebuilding modifications may increase or decrease overall hull volume. What sort of costs would be involved?

Drive compartments - bulkheads and power lines can be rebuilt to allow for smaller or larger drives, Costs?

Trivial stuff like staterooms and cargo holds are not all that different to the existing minor refit rules.

Hardpoints can be redesignated during a rebuild.

 

[MasterGwydion]

So let us get to work considering what the parameters for a rebuild are, we could even write a campaign around it

You have an existing ship, it could be brand new, it could be old and battle dameged, it could even be derelict.

Agreed.

Hull - streamling, configuration armour
some of these rebuilding modifications may increase or decrease overall hull volume. What sort of costs would be involved?

No ideas on these currently.

Drive compartments - bulkheads and power lines can be rebuilt to allow for smaller or larger drives, Costs?

Cost of the new drive + the hull cost for the new drive size. Not actually increasing the size of the ship, but paying for the changes to the hull that need to occur as a result of the new drive size.

Old drive is 30 tons, new drive is 60 tons. Pay for the 60-ton drive and pay for 60 tons worth of hull at 50KCr/ton + any hull modifications such as armor, stealth, reflec, radiation shielding, etc.

Trivial stuff like staterooms and cargo holds are not all that different to the existing minor refit rules.

These can probably stay the same.

Hardpoints can be redesignated during a rebuild.

Redesignated, as in changed their location? That would be cool, but all it would actually affect would be the ship's floorplans. I do think that enough people would be interested in that, that it should be included. I am not one of them, but it is still cool and useful for others.

 

[Sigtrygg]

No ideas on these currently.

I'll do some digging in other editions to see if there is anything adaptable. The other thing I forgot to mention is timescale, which could be based on TL and workforce available.

Cost of the new drive + the hull cost for the new drive size. Not actually increasing the size of the ship, but paying for the changes to the hull that need to occur as a result of the new drive size.

Agree on the drives if they are new, but what if you are salvaging them from another ship? Is moving a bulkhead a costly endevour, how does it compare with building a brand new engineering compartment.?
While I think about it what about building drives onto the hull, thus increasing hull displacement, which could be countered by removing a cargo hold completely. The configuration is likely to change...

Old drive is 30 tons, new drive is 60 tons. Pay for the 60-ton drive and pay for 60 tons worth of hull at 50KCr/ton + any hull modifications such as armor, stealth, reflec, radiation shielding, etc.

Or pay for the difference in hull - was 30 increasing to 60 so you pay for the additional 30. Already mentioned the possibility of salvaged drives.

These can probably stay the same.

Agreed.

Redesignated, as in changed their location? That would be cool, but all it would actually affect would be the ship's floorplans. I do think that enough people would be interested in that, that it should be included. I am not one of them, but it is still cool and useful for others.

Yup, relocate the hardpoints to elsewhere on the hull, or increase the number on a hull that previously didn't use the full allocation.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I'll do some digging in other editions to see if there is anything adaptable. The other thing I forgot to mention is tiemscale, which could vat based on TL and workforce available.

Agree on the drives if they are new, but what if you are salvaging them from another ship? Is moving a bulkhead a costly endevour, how does it compare with building a brand new engineering compartment.?
While I think about it what about building drives onto the hull, thus increasing hull displacement, which could be countered by removing a cargo hold completely. The configuration is likely to change...

Or pay for the difference in hull - was 30 increasing to 60 so you pay for the additional 30. Already mentioned the possibility of salvaged drives.

I was using the 60 tons to reflect removal of the old drive and installation of the new drive, not actual new hull. So in your example, of having a salvaged drive? The cost due to the hull could reflect the total cost of the job. Time to complete? Isn't there something in one of the books that says an average of 1MCr worth of ship built per day? Then modifications for TL, facilities, and type of modification. (minor refit, major refit, and rebuild.)

Agreed.

Yup, relocate the hardpoints to elsewhere on the hull, or increase the number on a hull that previously didn't use the full allocation.

Makes sense

 

[Sigtrygg]

No. You are wrong.
The rules are very clear.
"Major refits cover changes in power plant, manoeuvre or jump drive, as well as changes to spinal mounts or launch facilities (such as launch tubes)...
Those items covered under a major refit** cannot be increased in size but they can be reduced."

** major refit items are power plant, manoeuvre, jump drive, spinal mounts, and launch facilities as defined.