Hot Rodding is dead?

[ottarrus]

Pirates of Drinax and a few other adventures. Having the money to do such a major refit really depends on the campaign

The great big payoff in Drinax comes close to the end of the campaign... and IIRC isn't treasure ship the trigger for a lot of timed endgame events? I seem to remember that being the case.
One would have to time MAJOR ship upgrades like drives, power plant or computer replacements very closely in that situation. Minor stuff [replacing the sensors, upgrading a turret, and other more modular upgrades] will be easy to do if the PCs still have a high quality port that still likes them, of course.

 

[ottarrus]

Actually the Treasure ship can come anytime in the campaign, also MAJOR overhauls and upgrades are a constant thing in pirates it a high coinage campaign and the harrier is a mess. They are stealing cargo, ships and ransoming prisoners all throughout the campaign it even talks about major overhauls to not only the harrier but capture ships also. The companion even has rules for the PCs building their own base/minie starport. I think you need to reread the campaign.

That's true, the PC's Harrier is in poor shape to begin the campaign in addition to all the cosmetic fixes Oleg insists on.

Nevertheless, I still maintain that all the modifications will take MONTHS of campaign time. You don't just pull the power plant of a starship in a weekend's work. You'll have to cut a hole in the hull just to get the thing out... not to mention Jump drive [not only the drive unit, but rewiring the lanthanum grid on the hull] and the Maneuver drive. And that time is time not spent out in the spacelanes earning /stealing the money to pay for it all.
Again, I'm not saying that anyone 'can't' or 'shouldn't' plot major upgrades to their ship. I just think it's a lot more complicated than just swapping out black boxes. That's MTU and you do it in yours is just fine.

 

[Arkathan]

That's true, the PC's Harrier is in poor shape to begin the campaign in addition to all the cosmetic fixes Oleg insists on.

Nevertheless, I still maintain that all the modifications will take MONTHS of campaign time. You don't just pull the power plant of a starship in a weekend's work. You'll have to cut a hole in the hull just to get the thing out... not to mention Jump drive [not only the drive unit, but rewiring the lanthanum grid on the hull] and the Maneuver drive. And that time is time not spent out in the spacelanes earning /stealing the money to pay for it all.
Again, I'm not saying that anyone 'can't' or 'shouldn't' plot major upgrades to their ship. I just think it's a lot more complicated than just swapping out black boxes. That's MTU and you do it in yours is just fine.

86 days to do a major refit on a Harrier, according to HG'22's refit rules.

 

[ottarrus]

86 days to do a major refit on a Harrier, according to HG'22's refit rules.

Three months is a long time to not bring in any money....

 

[MasterGwydion]

Three months is a long time to not bring in any money....

Spec trade for a year, give half of the money to Oleb, buy a second ship, Steal a second ship. Use the 3 months building your Assets and Factions. Adventuring in system or in nearby systems. (3 months in plenty of time to book passage to a nearby system, adventure, then return for your ship.)

My point is that there are many things that can be done and still be valuable to the campaign.

 

[tytalan]

There is one serious problem with the way the refit rule read If you look at it using actual English grammar.
“There are two different types of refit that can be used. Major refits cover changes in power plant, manoeuvre or jump drive, as well as changes to spinal mounts or launch facilities (such as launch tubes). Removing these components costs 0.5 times the cost of the original system, while removing them and then installing new ones costs 1.5 times the cost of the new system. The time this takes is one quarter of the time required to build a new ship of the same size as described in Construction Times on page 8.

Minor refits are changes to any other components aboard the ship, such as weapon mounts or staterooms. Removing these components costs 0.1 times the cost of the original system, while removing them and installing new ones costs 1.1 times the cost of the new system. This takes one tenth of the time required to build a new ship of the same size. Armour and other parts of the ship integral to the hull (such as configuration or reinforced structure) cannot be changed under any refit. Those items covered under a major refit cannot be increased in size but they can be reduced. Other components can be increased in size if there is tonnage available. If several systems or components are being removed or replaced in single refit, all replacements are made simultaneously; therefore, it only takes the time required for the longest job to be completed.” As you can see the first paragraph talks about what you can do with a major refit and the second does the same for a minor but in the middle of the minor refit paragraph we have this sentence “Those items covered under a major refit cannot be increased in size but they can be reduced. “ now if this was in a third paragraph or in the major refit paragraph it would be no problem but because of it being in the middle of the minor refit paragraph it should only affect minor refits suggesting that you can decrease the size of these components in a minor refit but you can only increase them in a major refit. So basic English grammar states every paragraph has a topic and everything in that paragraph is related to that topic so this restriction being unde4 the minor refit topic paragraph indicates that the restriction is only for minor refits. This sentence while it effect both major and minor refits actually says it does “Armor and other parts of the ship integral to the hull (such as configuration or reinforced structure) cannot be changed under any refit.” While the other sentence does not specify that it effects major refits

 

[tytalan]

So to conclude what I’m saying:
In a major refit you can increase the size of power plant, manoeuvre or jump drive, as well as changes to spinal mounts or launch facilities (such as launch tubes).

In a minor refit you can modify all other components but you can only decrease the size of power plant, maneuver or jump drive and you can’t change spinal mounts or launch facilities (such as launch tubes).

In no refit can you change Armor and other parts of the ship integral to the hull (such as configuration or reinforced structure)

This is literally how the two paragraphs read and it make sense since it’s a lot easier to decrease the size of power plant, maneuver and jump drive since you don’t have to cut up and restructure bulkheads and there are numerous ships in mongoose T2 books that follow this reading. Now it could be argued that even though you decrease the size of the power plant, maneuver and jump drive you don’t get that extra space back unless you do a major refit.

 

[Condottiere]

Those are the stated text in the rules.

Whether or not I agree with them.

Or figured out a loophole.

Any confusion is clearly created by the author.

 

[boggo2300]

So to conclude what I’m saying:
In a major refit you can increase the size of power plant, manoeuvre or jump drive, as well as changes to spinal mounts or launch facilities (such as launch tubes).

In a minor refit you can modify all other components but you can only decrease the size of power plant, maneuver or jump drive and you can’t change spinal mounts or launch facilities (such as launch tubes).

In no refit can you change Armor and other parts of the ship integral to the hull (such as configuration or reinforced structure)

This is literally how the two paragraphs read and it make sense since it’s a lot easier to decrease the size of power plant, maneuver and jump drive since you don’t have to cut up and restructure bulkheads and there are numerous ships in mongoose T2 books that follow this reading. Now it could be argued that even though you decrease the size of the power plant, maneuver and jump drive you don’t get that extra space back unless you do a major refit.

This reading of the passage is far more logical and actually agrees with published ships.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

So to conclude what I’m saying:
In a major refit you can increase the size of power plant, manoeuvre or jump drive, as well as changes to spinal mounts or launch facilities (such as launch tubes).

In a minor refit you can modify all other components but you can only decrease the size of power plant, maneuver or jump drive and you can’t change spinal mounts or launch facilities (such as launch tubes).

Except any change to drives is a major refit, so can never be changed by minor refit:

Major refits cover changes in power plant, manoeuvre or jump drive, as well as changes to spinal mounts or launch facilities (such as launch tubes).

This sentence:

Those items covered under a major refit cannot be increased in size but they can be reduced.

can only ever apply to major refits, e.g. any change in drive or power plant.

Minor refits are changes to other components, i.e. other than covered under major refits:

Minor refits are changes to any other components aboard the ship, such as weapon mounts or staterooms.

This obviously goes back to the fixed size of the engineering section in LBB2, as clearly shown in the original rule in CT TCS:

CT TCS, p34:
REFITTING SHIPS
_ _ Outmoded ships may be improved by refitting; obsolete systems are replaced by newer models. All refitting must be done at an A or B starport, and jumpdrives may be refitted only at A starports. Refitting involves the complete removal of an old system and the installation of a new one; for instance, if a power plant is refitted, the entire power plant is removed and a new one put in its place. Refitting takes up shipyard capacity equal to the refitting ship's tonnage.
_ _ Changes in power plant, maneuver drive, or jump drive are major changes. They cost 1.5 times the amount the new system would cost in a new ship; the time required to install major changes is one fourth the time required to build a new ship (from the construction time table).
_ _ Changes in any other ship component are minor changes. They cost 1.1 times the cost of the system in a new ship and take one tenth the time required for new ship construction.
_ _ Refitting is subject to the same time modifiers and weekly costs as in the ship-building rule. If several ships of a class are being refitted the same way, all ships after the first receive the time benefit. Work may proceed concurrently: if several ship systems are being replaced, the refit takes only the time required for the longest one.
_ _ The degree to which a ship may be changed is limited. Power plant, Mdrive, Jdrive, and spinal mount weapons may not be increased in tonnage. There may be no additional launch facilities built (although they may be removed). Armor and configuration may not be changed. The number and size of weapons bays may not be changed.

And in the MgT1 TCS rule:

MgT1 TCS, p16:
Refitting Ships
Older ships with less advanced technology are often improved and brought in line with newer vessels by refitting them; out of date systems are removed with newer ones put in their place. All refits must take place at starports of class B or above and jump drives can only be removed and fitted at class A starports. Any refitting, even if it just the removal of minor systems, takes up shipyard capacity equal to the tonnage of the ship that is undergoing refit.

There are two different types of refit that can be used. Major refits cover changes in power plant, manoeuvre or jump drive, as well as changes to spinal mounts or launch facilities (such as launch tubes). Removing these components costs 0.5 times the cost of the original system, while removing them and then installing new ones costs 1.5 times the cost of the new system. The time this takes is one quarter of the time required to build a new ship of the same size.

Minor refits are changes to any other components aboard the ship, such as weapon mounts or staterooms. Removing these components costs 0.1 times the cost of the original system, while removing them and then installing new ones costs 1.1 times the cost of the new system. The time this takes is one tenth of the time required to build a new ship of the same size.

Armour and other parts of the ship integral to the hull (such as configuration or reinforced structure) cannot be changed under any refit. Those items covered under a major refit cannot be increased in size though they may be reduced. Other components may be increased in size if there is tonnage available. If several systems or components are being removed or replaced in a single refit then it only takes the time required for the longest one to be completed though all costs must be paid.

If you want to increase the size of the engineering section, just make a house rule and perhaps even call it rebuilding instead of refitting?

 

[AnotherDilbert]

There are lots of things we can do, e.g.:
The Covenanter: a Gazelle with the bridge lopped off, and a Scout welded to it instead (TNE Brilliant Lances, p45).

It just isn't covered by the refit rule...

 

[Condottiere]

It would by the junk rules.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I was just looking through the refit rules in High Guard and I realized that you cannot hotrod your starship. By game rules, it seems to be impossible. "Those items covered under a major refit cannot be increased in size but they can be reduced." HG pg. 72. Hot-rodding is all about putting larger engines in stock starships.

It was never a thing under the rules.

LBB2 banned it (except some circumstances)
TCS described refits, and banned it.
MgT1 TCS described refits, and banned it.


Just house rule it if you want it...

 

[Sigtrygg]

Isn't English a wonderful language. Did you know that the meaning of a sentence can be informed be the context introduced by the precedding sentence?

"...cannot be changed under any refit. Those items covered under a major refit cannot be increased in size but they can be reduced."

 

[Condottiere]

Reconciliating contradictory rules.

You can't install power plants in modules.

Then it turns out it was under our nose, all the time.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Just remember, The Beowulf-class Free Trader? How exactly is that converted to a A2 Hero-class Far Trader as it states in the book, if you cannot increase the size of your jump drive from J-1 to J-2?

HG22 pg. 169

"While nominally a modified free trader, the far
trader has a series of modifications that have
become accepted as standard and many free
traders are either modified to this specification or
are built this way from new. The far trader swaps
cargo space and low berths for a larger jump drive
and fuel tank, allowing it to reach systems a basic
free trader cannot travel to."

Emphasis is mine.

This clearly violates the rule and it is one of the most used ships in Charted Space.

 

[Condottiere]

Might depend on when that modification takes place.

If it's still in the building phase, it might be plausible.

The Classic variant would be having an engineering compartment, where you can reallocate volume between the engineering components.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Might depend on when that modification takes place.

If it's still in the building phase, it might be plausible.

The Classic variant would be having an engineering compartment, where you can reallocate volume between the engineering components.

The building phase? You mean if it was originally constructed as a J-2? Eventhough the description clearly states that refitting is, not only possible, but common. Just get rid of the stupid rule that says you can't put bigger engines on stuff during a refit.

Whoever wrote those rules has no idea what you can do to a ship during a refit, on Earth currently. You should be able to change the total hull tonnage, add or remove armor, move the bulkheads, etc. In a refit today, some ships have their length changed by cutting them in half and adding a new hull section to the middle of them.

So, as best that I can figure, this rule serves no game purpose nor exists for any nod to "reality" and therefore should be removed.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Just remember, The Beowulf-class Free Trader? How exactly is that converted to a A2 Hero-class Far Trader as it states in the book, if you cannot increase the size of your jump drive from J-1 to J-2?

Not by a refit.

... many free
traders are either modified to this specification or
are built this way from new.

I have no idea how this modification or rebuilding is done, but it's not covered by the refit rule. Presumably it's a more extensive process than a mere refit?

 

[Condottiere]

I don't agree with it, since in real life aircraft and ships have been widely modified, and increased in size.

But, this seems to be a rule that you can't really get around it.


As regards to the building phase, ships could be modified more easily, than after launch.