Hot Rodding is dead?

[Sigtrygg]

That's the idea I was going for... Increase everything in the engineering section.
In my own games, I rule zeroed the restriction out of existence, provided the refit made sense within the existing deck plans.
Then I discovered that they altered the internal bulkheads on the Type-S when they converted to a seeker. Apparently they did it to make the engine room more spacious, and they just didn't need that ship's locker anymore...¯\_(ツ)_/¯

The seeker, the element class cruiser, the modified free trader/far trader are all examples of that classical Traveller trope - ships that don't use the rules as written. They join a long list of ships that ignore rules as written at the time.

Personally I do what you do, anything within the hull can be moved around, drive rooms expanded at the cost of staterooms or cargo and the like, bulkheads moved.

When I saw the TNE covenanter (the frankenship scout/gazelle) I photocopied every CT deck plan I had and started cutting them up along bulkhead lines and the like to find other combinations that look good.

Weld a few small craft to an x-boat, stick a Safari ship onto a subsidised liner, all sorts of wacky designs can be made to fit

 

[Sigtrygg]

Which makes more sense that mongoose fixed a rule that got an accidental paragraph break in the 1ed rule and are following their rules with these refits or that mongoose ignores all their rules when producing ship books.

For certain authors I am afraid the second is not only most likely but is exactly what happened. Then there are the others that break their own rules due to grandfathering, the seeker and the far/free trader.

The first makes more sense. The only real support you have for not being able to change drive size is the fact that in earlier editions you couldn’t.

You can change drive size, you can make them smaller.

You ignore everything that doesn’t support your narrative because you don’t want change. And you completely brow beat anyone who disagrees with your interpretation.

What I do in my own games rarely follows what MgT rules say because of issues like this. I am just reading the rules as they exist in HG2022. No interpretation is needed, the rules are very clear. It is tha unfortunate fact that Mongoose doesn't always use their own rules as written that causes the problem.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Dilbert has no credibility he has counter-dictated himself repeatedly for example

And yet claims

At this point everything he says is suspect

And the personal attacks begin...

I'll take is as confirmation that you have no logical arguments left.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Except we know that’s not the case since it specifically says converted

It doesn't say converted, it says modified. If you are going to insist on language accuracy then practice what you preach.

"While nominally a modified free trader, the far trader has a series of modifications that have become accepted as standard and many free traders are either modified to this specification or are built this way from new. The far trader swaps cargo space and low berths for a larger jump drive and fuel tank, allowing it to reach systems a basic free trader cannot travel to. While less cargo can mean fewer profits, the ability to reach more distant
systems and to travel between stars at a faster rate can more than make up for this in the hands of a clever captain. Due to its tight power budget, the ship must shut down its manoeuvre drive and engage in ‘jump dimming’ – dimming the lights and otherwise briefly powering off some systems – to have enough power to jump."

The trouble is the refit rules do not allow this modification, the author didn't use the rules written in the book.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Which makes more sense that mongoose fixed a rule that got an accidental paragraph break in the 1ed rule and are following their rules with these refits or that mongoose ignores all their rules when producing ship books. The first makes more sense.

Sure, the rule in MgT1 TCS that was a close rephrase if the CT TCS refit rule obviously meant something completely different and the paragraph breaks were accidental.

That an editor removed a paragraph break to balance the text on the page is of course completely unthinkable.

The only real support you have for not being able to change drive size is the fact that in earlier editions you couldn’t.

No, we just read the rule that bans it. Just as it did in previous editions. Regardless of any paragraph breaks.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Which makes more sense that mongoose fixed a rule that got an accidental paragraph break in the 1ed rule and are following their rules with these refits or that mongoose ignores all their rules when producing ship books. The first makes more sense.

Have you read the feedback page on the new Borderlands book? Almost every ship they published in that book violates the shipbuilding rules in HG22. So, whatever may make more sense in your mind, the reality is that authors ignore the rules in Mongoose rulebooks. You can see as proof the aforementioned Feedback Page on the Borderlands book.

Edit- For this reason, I redesign every single ship before I use it in a campaign to make sure it fits the rules.

 

[Condottiere]

That's one more use for bulkheads.


HMS Zubian was a First World War Royal Navy Tribal-class destroyer constructed from the forward end of HMS Zulu and the rear and mid sections of HMS Nubian. These two destroyers had been badly damaged in late 1916, and rather than scrapping both hulls at the height of World War I, the Admiralty ordered that they be rebuilt as the composite Zubian and put back into service. She was commissioned into the fleet in June 1917. The name Zubian is a portmanteau of the names of the original ships.[1]

 

[Condottiere]

If you think about it, it's the same class, and you could assume some form of modular construction, even below fifty kilotonnes.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Sorry, I missed this:

Dilbert. I am just looking for clarification here. Are you saying that the refit rules are irrelevant? You seem to be saying that you can make any changes to a ship that you want as long as you do not call it a refit. Is that what you are saying?

No, I would say the refit rules are the simple and easy way, the way that is reasonably often used.

We can do crazy things like the Covenanter, but it's presumably not easy and cheap, and not often done... Hence there is no fixed price or time frame, the shipyard will find out what it costs as they are doing it.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Sorry, I missed this:

No, I would say the refit rules are the simple and easy way, the way that is reasonably often used.

We can do crazy things like the Covenanter, but it's presumably not easy and cheap, and not often done... Hence there is no fixed price or time frame, the shipyard will find out what it costs as they are doing it.

Okay. Thank you for the clarification.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Here is another example of writers not knowing the rules. Behind the Claw page 203, the Deneb Stalwart-class Monitor. It is a converted Starship to a Monitor.

"The conversion is a relatively straightforward one, replacing the fuel tanks with armour and a ring of missile bays and the jump drive with a pair of fusion gun bays."

page 72 High Guard,

"Armour and other parts of the ship integral to the hull (such as configuration or reinforced structure) cannot be changed under any refit."

 

[Terry Mixon]

Here is another example of writers not knowing the rules. Behind the Claw page 203, the Deneb Stalwart-class Monitor. It is a converted Starship to a Monitor.

"The conversion is a relatively straightforward one, replacing the fuel tanks with armour and a ring of missile bays and the jump drive with a pair of fusion gun bays."

page 72 High Guard,

"Armour and other parts of the ship integral to the hull (such as configuration or reinforced structure) cannot be changed under any refit."

Things like this is why I’ve started building the ships in new releases to point out where they violate their own build rules.

 

[boggo2300]

Things like this is why I’ve started building the ships in new releases to point out where they violate their own build rules.

A service to all Referee Kind! thank you!

 

[Terry Mixon]

A service to all Referee Kind! thank you!

Thanks. I just hope it encourages them to do it themselves.

 

[actionman]

"The conversion is a relatively straightforward one, replacing the fuel tanks with armour and a ring of missile bays and the jump drive with a pair of fusion gun bays."

That's so weird, as if they have fuel tank shaped chunks of armor in the middle of the ship, and fusion gun bays pointing out of the rear of the ship.

 

[Sigtrygg]

If you fill the fuel tanks with reinforced concrete does that make it a planetoid hull for AV purposes...

those fusion gun bays are actually fusion drive exhausts... very tightly focused fusion drive plasma, with fire control.

 

[Vormaerin]

Used to be able to use your drive exhaust as a fusion gun.

 

[Condottiere]

Depends on the strength of concrete, compared to solid nickel iron.

You might want to add rebars for reinforcement.